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Kratos Siber
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.17 10:51:00 -
[1]
I know from what I've learnt reading forums that there arent much gains from training the x1 multiplier Learning Skills to level 5.
But Learning 5 is a -2% training time which would be a significant enough gain to warrant training to max. I'm not to sure. Any suggestions?
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KingsGambit
Caldari Knights
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:05:00 -
[2]
It's been calculated in the past in myriad different ways, but the short version...
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer. Regardless of that however, the rank 1s will save you the time it took to train them (from lvl 4-5), on average, over approximately 9-12 months, depending on what skills you train in that time. The rank 3s take on average, approximately 3 or so years before they repay you for training them from 4-5.
So the net result...it would be of greater benefit to train the Rank 1s for your lower attributes than your higher ones and assuming you don't spend much time without a skill training, should pay itself back within the year. The Rank 3s take a lot longer before you start saving time. If you're a new char, lvl 4s across the board should take 2-3 weeks or so all in, and will give 80% of the benefit. Consider also, if you think you'll be around in a year...try using Evemon to setup a skill plan for that long and then see what happens when you add in lvl 5 learning skills, decide based on that.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.17 11:53:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: KingsGambit
(...)
OP asked about the skill "Learning", not the attribute-specific skills.
Training "Learning" from IV to V will take about a year to pay off.
Plan on playing more than a year? Train it.
Plan on being gone by then? Don't train it.
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.07.17 13:21:00 -
[4]
I'd says it's worth it, but not early on.
For example, say you have an even spread of 20 points in each attribute. Add 2% and you get an extra 0.4 points per attribute or an extra 2 points total, double the gain from the other x1 skills. There are a couple of provisos, some of the extra attribute points go into Charisma and you need already high attributes to benefit.
I'd train all the learning skills, x1 and x3, up to lvl4 (you could leave the charisma ones depending on you choice of profession), stick in the best implants you can afford and then train learning to lvl 5.
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2009.07.17 23:12:00 -
[5]
Asking "Is it worth it?" is so subjective . You will get a lot of opinions , but not much help there.
Think about the players that do train fast , how they will pass you by , or how you'll never be able to catch them.
Ask your own self , "Do I wanna train at the fastest rate possible in EVE , and how soon do I want to do that?"
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Badmin
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Posted - 2009.07.18 00:03:00 -
[6]
learning 5 all others to 4 is of benefit if you plan to stay in for more than 3 years, If not. Then dont bother.
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Mona X
Caldari
Polish Task Forces
C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.07.18 02:52:00 -
[7]
If any skill is worth training to 5, it's definitely Learning.
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Kratos Siber
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.18 04:24:00 -
[8]
Thanks for all the great advice.
I do intend on sticking around for awhile probably at least a few months so I'll put off Learning 5 until I'm sure.
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Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
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Posted - 2009.07.18 12:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
As i understand it your sp is calculated as PrimeryAtrib + Half your SeconderyAtrib * 60 sp per hour.
Therefore every aditional point to primery adds 60 sp per hour and every point to secondary adds 30 sp per hour regardless of how high your attribs are.
I see no diminershing returns here?
á
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Mardris Fol
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Posted - 2009.07.18 16:17:00 -
[10]
Learning is the easiest to judge because it affects the rate, whatever you're learning.
The whole package (Learning 1-5) costs 256k and give 10% extra.
On this basis you'll recoup the skill points after 2.56M skills points have been added, which is 2-3 months.
Just considering the last point of Learning, this is just 2% extra for about 211k.
This takes more like 10.5Msp to recover, which is 10-11 months as others say.
This also implies that the higher you attributes are the shorter time it takes to get a pay back.
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Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.07.20 03:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
As i understand it your sp is calculated as PrimeryAtrib + Half your SeconderyAtrib * 60 sp per hour.
Therefore every aditional point to primery adds 60 sp per hour and every point to secondary adds 30 sp per hour regardless of how high your attribs are.
I see no diminershing returns here?
There's no diminishing return in the sp/hr, the diminishing return is in the amount of time you save on actually training skills.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.20 03:32:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/07/2009 03:33:08
Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
It comes from the percentage difference, rather the absolute value, and the time it takes to recover the increase.
Say you have two attributes at 10, and lvl III trained in the appropriate rank-1 learning skills, for an effective attribute rating of 13 in both. Learning a skill with these two attributes nets you 1170 SP/h.
So you decide that no, this will not do, and train those two learning skills to lvl IV. This takes you (say) 20h for each, and after that 40h investment, you learn skills at 1260 SP/h — 7.7% faster than before. Nice! You'll have earned back the time spent on training those learning skills in 519 hours (3 weeks).
So you decide that no, this will (still) not do, and train the same learning skills to V. Unfortunately, this will take you 4 days and 20h each, and you'll end up earning 1350 SP/h. So you've spent 9 days and 16h for a 7.1% increase in learning speed. It will take you 3267 hours (4+ months!) before that investment pays off.
In both cases, you increase your attributes by 1pt each and your SP/h by 90 (as long as you train skills that use these two attributes), but not only does the second increase provide a smaller speed increase, it takes much longer to get that lesser bonus. The combination of both a smaller boost and a longer training time means it takes vastly longer before you start earning back the time you put into increasing those learning skills.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Badmin
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Posted - 2009.07.20 03:48:00 -
[13]
unfortunately you are probably the 13000th person to ask this question and there are already several threads dedicated to the mathamtics behind it.
Believe it or not, someone actually took the better part of two to three hours using the learning formula to figure out just exactly how long it takes to get your return.
It is worth it, we always tell our corp mates to train learning to 5 and everything else to 3 as they work their way up the sp ladder. Generally, creating a new character, you throw ALL the initial 1.6M skillpoints into learning so that you do not have to worry about them later.
Me personally, i've been playing for a while so all learning is at IV or V.
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Badmin
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Posted - 2009.07.20 03:50:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Badmin on 20/07/2009 03:56:03
Edited by: Badmin on 20/07/2009 03:55:33
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=81368
Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2006.03.12 16:21:00 - [12]
Originally by: Tripoli
Well, my 140 day calculation is about two years old, so I decided to check it today. I'm rather embarrassed to say that it is way off. Embarassed
Payoff for Learning from 4 to 5 can vary a lot player to player, but for someone with average attributes, level 4 in the basic learning skills, and no implants, the payoff is actually 406 days. If you had advanced learnings at 4, it'd be 286 days. Add +3 implants and it falls to 243 days.
I do apologize for my rather horrible miscalculation. I will update it in my thread.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.20 04:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kratos Siber
I know from what I've learnt reading forums that there arent much gains from training the x1 multiplier Learning Skills to level 5.
But Learning 5 is a -2% training time which would be a significant enough gain to warrant training to max. I'm not to sure. Any suggestions?
Multiply the time it would take to train by 50.
If you think you will still be playing well after that time, then train Learning V.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.07.20 06:48:00 -
[16]
Just remember is it worth it and how long payoff takes are not the same question. Payoff can take years longer then how long it takes for adv5 to be worth it.
Payoff can take 3 years but being worth it can take 2 years or less. So it doesn't always take 3 years to be worth it. Sometimes but not always.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Tiberious Driller
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:24:00 -
[17]
just was wondering if it would be worth moving my basic learning skills to 5 but leaving my advanced ones at 4 ??
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SeismicForce
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.07.20 07:59:00 -
[18]
Jesus people, we're talking of a few days each to train the basics & learning to 5, whats the incredible rush for?!
Originally by: Allisie
In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.
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Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 20/07/2009 03:33:08
Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
It comes from the percentage difference, rather the absolute value, and the time it takes to recover the increase...
Ok I see where the % difference comes from but does that apply in reality?
For example lets say my 2 attribs are 10 each, that gives a training speed of 15*60 = 900 sp per hour, if i then double those attribs to 20 each that gives a training speed of 30*60 = 1800 sp per hour...
Each time i double the attribs i double my training speed, so is there really a dimishing return as far as training speed goes?
The deminishing effect on the return Vs time infested makes sense ( tho having spent 4+ years ingame and maxed out my learning speed) so this part is irrelevant to me
á
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2009.07.20 17:35:00 -
[20]
The day you get it to 5 , is the day you start training everything else faster...The day your buddy trains it to 5 , is the day he will start passing you by . Seems like a no-brainer to me 
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Vagilicious
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Posted - 2009.07.22 18:37:00 -
[21]
Just curious, but don't you need the basic learnings to 5 before you can train the advanced ones?
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Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.07.22 18:50:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pottsey
Just remember is it worth it and how long payoff takes are not the same question. Payoff can take years longer then how long it takes for adv5 to be worth it.
Payoff can take 3 years but being worth it can take 2 years or less. So it doesn't always take 3 years to be worth it. Sometimes but not always.
Just quit it Pottsey, those of us who understand what you're saying will have figured it out ourself, and those who doesn't will either figure it out themself or will never understand it.
You keep posting it over and over again, yet, people never seem to understand.
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Chathe
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.22 20:01:00 -
[23]
Each learning skill you train will make you train faster.. period ..
So you've got a few things to think about
1. the learning skill itself. This is the hardest skill to give an exact answer on as it slides on the value of your training.
Example
if you're atributes are 5/5 with no other adds ( worst case ) the difference between learning 4 and 5 is 9 sp/hour or it'll take you 1185 days to recoup the training.
more average skill 9/9 with +7 skill and +3 implants 312 days
And at max 15/9 with +10 skill +5 implants 212 days
The thing about learn is that it's always on so it will repay itself no matter what ( say vs adv cha )
Now the other boosting skills are alot easier as they give a fixed return, assuming your learning skill is static, given folks only really care about maxing these after the base learning skill is maxed the following are the return times.
if you're training a skill with the attribute as a primary.
Basic
0.16
0.89
5.05
28.57
161.62
Advanced
0.32
1.79
10.10
57.14
323.23
Now these are only useful if you're traing a skill that actually uses the attribute, so I'd highly recommend learning 5 before maxing out any of the others, unless you have a plan that's fairly long.
Some folks recommend maxxing all skills because it allows you to instantly change your skill plan, others recommend other things.
I recommend as new player starting point
learning 5
base skills you use at 4
advanced skills you use at 3
the ability to plug in +3 implants
beyond that you start to have to decide how long you want to play the game.
All learning skill eventually can pay themselves off ... sorta... you've gotta train some pretty esoteric .. goodness ? to get adv cha to pay off
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Warezmy Carr
Gallente
Pod Pilots Association
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Posted - 2009.07.22 20:46:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Warezmy Carr on 22/07/2009 20:47:51
Quote:
Just curious, but don't you need the basic learnings to 5 before you can train the advanced ones?
The prerequisite for each advanced learning skill is the basic learning skill IV.
--
Warezmy Carr's Skills: Here |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
Estel Arador Corp Services
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Posted - 2009.07.22 21:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Pottsey
Just remember is it worth it and how long payoff takes are not the same question. Payoff can take years longer then how long it takes for adv5 to be worth it.
Payoff can take 3 years but being worth it can take 2 years or less. So it doesn't always take 3 years to be worth it. Sometimes but not always.
Just quit it Pottsey, those of us who understand what you're saying will have figured it out ourself, and those who doesn't will either figure it out themself or will never understand it.
You keep posting it over and over again, yet, people never seem to understand.
Pottsey is so obsessed with spreading her minority view on the advanced learning skills - which weirdly requires people to plan to not stick to their skill plan, and/or have nothing useful to train for several months - that she's completely missed the fact that this thread is about the skill Learning V and not the advanced learning skills, a difference which I incidentally pointed out in my first post, the second reply in this thread.
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Shevar
Minmatar
Target Practice incorporated
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Posted - 2009.07.23 03:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
As i understand it your sp is calculated as PrimeryAtrib + Half your SeconderyAtrib * 60 sp per hour.
Therefore every aditional point to primery adds 60 sp per hour and every point to secondary adds 30 sp per hour regardless of how high your attribs are.
I see no diminershing returns here?
The difference from 1 and 2 is a 100% increase the difference between 10 and 11 is a 9% increase. Yet both are only 1 apart.
(hope that came out understandably in English...)
---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.07.23 09:06:00 -
[27]
Estel Arador said ôwhich weirdly requires people to plan to not stick to their skill plan,ô
Its not weird. Not sticking to the skill plan or changing skill plans is perfectly normal and common.
I have not missed the fact this thread is about learning V. What I said still applies to learning V. I only mentioned longer payoff as others where talking about longer payoff.
My view might be in the minority but that doesn't mean its wrong. I am only trying to help people by giving them the full facts instead of half the facts.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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irion felpamy
Minmatar
SkillzKillz
United For 0rder
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Posted - 2009.07.23 12:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shevar
Originally by: Amateratsu
Originally by: KingsGambit
The higher your attribute already is, the less of an effect the one extra attribute point will offer.
Where does this diminershing return come from?
As i understand it your sp is calculated as PrimeryAtrib + Half your SeconderyAtrib * 60 sp per hour.
Therefore every aditional point to primery adds 60 sp per hour and every point to secondary adds 30 sp per hour regardless of how high your attribs are.
I see no diminershing returns here?
The difference from 1 and 2 is a 100% increase the difference between 10 and 11 is a 9% increase. Yet both are only 1 apart.
(hope that came out understandably in English...)
It does but you are looking at the problem wrong, once you finish that skill you just put another on. If you only had a set amount of skills to train before stopping then what you said would be applicable. This applies to the learnings and advanced learnings, for the percentage based "learning" skill then the returns from it scale up with the value of the atributes you use, this means for "learning" the effect of the skill is improved if your attributes match your skill plan. |
Chathe
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.23 16:15:00 -
[29]
heh so numbers don't lie , but lairs use numbers.
So the skinny on the arguement is.
Each + to a learning skill gives a fixed return.
That return changes the rate you learn a skills by x ammount, each additional learning skill while it does change the rate, the rate change has a lesser impact on you reduction in training time.
Now some maths ( without learning skill for simplicity )
5/5 to 6/5 450 sp/hour to 510 sp/hour ( + 60 sp / hour )
14(+14)/9(+15)to 14(+15)/9(+15) 2400 sp/ hour to 2460 sp / hour the same rate change +60 sp / hour
but what does it do to amount of time saved training a skill ?
For a 1 skill the change from 5/5 to 6/5 in hours saved
1: 0.07
2: 0.37
3: 2.09
4: 11.83
5: 66.93
For a 1 skill the change from 14(+14)/9(+15)to 14(+15)/9(+15) in hours saved
1: 0.0025
2: 0.01
3: 0.08
4: 0.46
5: 2.60
So you will save some time with each set of training but you'll save more time on the lower levels of training skills, but the time saving will lessen the more skill you have.
ie the lowest end you save 5 days traing a 1x skill from 4 to 5 vs the top end were you save 2 and a half hours on the same skill.
Just depends on how you look at it.
You get the same rate change but ...
it has a much lessened effect on your training times the more you get.
For ammusements sake...
5/5 - 14(+15)/5 looks like this
time save and the change in time saved
So can see that the time saved more or less goes from huge improvements to meh .. but still there.. Ala everything else in eve. ( times in hours )
66.93
52.8414.09
42.7710.06
35.337.44
29.685.65
25.284.40
21.803.49
18.982.81
16.682.30
14.781.91
13.181.60
11.831.35
10.671.15
9.680.99
8.820.86
8.070.75
7.410.66
6.830.58
6.310.52
5.850.46
5.440.41
5.070.37
4.740.33
4.440.30
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.23 18:01:00 -
[30]
So I was fiddling with my training plan in EVEmon last evening, and it recommended I train Eidetic Memory 5.
Any learning skill is worth it if it saves you more time than it takes to train. EVEmon is very helpful at pointing this out when necessary. |
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