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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.29 07:39:00 -
[61]
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.29 07:39:00 -
[62]
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2004.09.29 08:09:00 -
[63]
Well, I'll have to think back a ways, but when I flew Minnie cruisers I would generally set up for long range and use my speed to dictate the terms of the engagement. My guns reached further, I went faster than my opponent, my only worry was that they would realize their situation in time and warp out. I would not orbit them and up my transversal speed, it hurt my accuracy and they couldn't him me anyway due to range, I simply "kept at range". And I employed appropriate countermeasures vs any missiles that were a threat. If I remember correctly this was after everyone started noticing the problem projectiles have with tracking. Hmmmmm.
I'm feeling the urge to fly one again.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Ranger 1
|
Posted - 2004.09.29 08:09:00 -
[64]
Well, I'll have to think back a ways, but when I flew Minnie cruisers I would generally set up for long range and use my speed to dictate the terms of the engagement. My guns reached further, I went faster than my opponent, my only worry was that they would realize their situation in time and warp out. I would not orbit them and up my transversal speed, it hurt my accuracy and they couldn't him me anyway due to range, I simply "kept at range". And I employed appropriate countermeasures vs any missiles that were a threat. If I remember correctly this was after everyone started noticing the problem projectiles have with tracking. Hmmmmm.
I'm feeling the urge to fly one again.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.09.29 08:18:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.
and you people.... again.... whats with you people making retarded comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.
................. |
Cruz
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Posted - 2004.09.29 08:18:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.
and you people.... again.... whats with you people making retarded comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.
................. |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.09.29 08:37:00 -
[67]
yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an ³ber pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)
Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can  - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.09.29 08:37:00 -
[68]
yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an ³ber pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)
Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can
-------------------------------------------
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Wren
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Posted - 2004.09.29 09:10:00 -
[69]
 Quote:
It just sucks playing the crap ass D&D race that has -2 str, -2 dex, and +2 charisma.
Actually, it's like we are using greatswords on a character with -2 strength, -2 constitution, -2 intelligence, +2 Charisma, and +1 dexterity. (since our speed bonus is small to begin with and once you fit ab/mwd on ships the speed really doesn't matter)
We are using a strength stat weapon when we should be using daggers and have weapon finese.
--------------------------------------------------
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Wren
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Posted - 2004.09.29 09:10:00 -
[70]
Quote:
It just sucks playing the crap ass D&D race that has -2 str, -2 dex, and +2 charisma.
Actually, it's like we are using greatswords on a character with -2 strength, -2 constitution, -2 intelligence, +2 Charisma, and +1 dexterity. (since our speed bonus is small to begin with and once you fit ab/mwd on ships the speed really doesn't matter)
We are using a strength stat weapon when we should be using daggers and have weapon finese.
--------------------------------------------------
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.09.29 09:31:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:37:09
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:33:55
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.
and you people.... again.... whats with you people making retarded comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.
So what ? Slap an explosive hardener on one of the six low slots on Deimos and it has excellent armor resistance (over 50%) all round. Whereas the the Muninn has 40% resistance to kinetic and you can't really start sticking a shield booster and kinetic hardner on your 3 mid slots without having a sucky set up - you need the mids for other things and it is a much better to armor tank ,especially as best at close range, but it's best resistances are in shield which also get reduced from a mwd.
Seven high slots does not make it high damaging Missiles, without ship bonuses, do not do much damage and nor do projectiles (without bonus advanatge over others) and the extra slots that other ships have got like the deimos can be used for damage mods so it more than even out.
My main gripe is with the bonuses of the Muninn. It should be like the Rupture and Thorax now - where the Muninn has More DOT bonuses to make the weapons/damage balanced...
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.09.29 09:31:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:37:09
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 09:33:55
Originally by: Cruz
Edited by: Cruz on 29/09/2004 08:20:26
have you people even looked at the shield resists of the muunin O_O pretty damned nice, I dont see what there is to complain about, especially with 7 offensive slots.
and you people.... again.... whats with you people making retarded comparisons against a ship vs another ship when you havent even flown one of the new heavy assaults... All this hypothetical BS is getting on my nerves.
So what ? Slap an explosive hardener on one of the six low slots on Deimos and it has excellent armor resistance (over 50%) all round. Whereas the the Muninn has 40% resistance to kinetic and you can't really start sticking a shield booster and kinetic hardner on your 3 mid slots without having a sucky set up - you need the mids for other things and it is a much better to armor tank ,especially as best at close range, but it's best resistances are in shield which also get reduced from a mwd.
Seven high slots does not make it high damaging Missiles, without ship bonuses, do not do much damage and nor do projectiles (without bonus advanatge over others) and the extra slots that other ships have got like the deimos can be used for damage mods so it more than even out.
My main gripe is with the bonuses of the Muninn. It should be like the Rupture and Thorax now - where the Muninn has More DOT bonuses to make the weapons/damage balanced...
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Darax Thulain
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Posted - 2004.09.29 19:22:00 -
[73]
I think this issue with minmatar ship is closely tied to the oversized ab "issue". If minmatars cannot fit oversized ab they suck, yes. If CCP ever thinks about limiting ABs and mwds to classes(which is stupid) they need to redo the entire minmatar fleet.
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Darax Thulain
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Posted - 2004.09.29 19:22:00 -
[74]
I think this issue with minmatar ship is closely tied to the oversized ab "issue". If minmatars cannot fit oversized ab they suck, yes. If CCP ever thinks about limiting ABs and mwds to classes(which is stupid) they need to redo the entire minmatar fleet.
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Sewell
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Posted - 2004.09.29 19:55:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Hell, you can do both. Pump up autocannons to be a nonsuck option in close combat and that takes care of itself. Maybe make the fireing rate rock bottom so the DoT is really up there and you get an awesome effect from a constant hail of bullets. I mean like a DoT comparable to the close range damage that the other turret types get to know.
Yes please - fot the love of god, tomb, cookies or whatever - do as this man says!
The entire Minmatar race needs some other purpose than being the laughing stock of eve...
I also agree on the mass issue; I find it strange that ships made of pins and tin (who also have low armor and structure) many times have equal or higher mass than other races. We get a higher base speed than other races sure, but this advantage is often negated by the fact that the mass of the ship is higher. (taranis vs claw anyone?)
/goes back trainging towards L Artillery spec with a tear in my eye...
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Sewell
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Posted - 2004.09.29 19:55:00 -
[76]
Quote:
Hell, you can do both. Pump up autocannons to be a nonsuck option in close combat and that takes care of itself. Maybe make the fireing rate rock bottom so the DoT is really up there and you get an awesome effect from a constant hail of bullets. I mean like a DoT comparable to the close range damage that the other turret types get to know.
Yes please - fot the love of god, tomb, cookies or whatever - do as this man says!
The entire Minmatar race needs some other purpose than being the laughing stock of eve...
I also agree on the mass issue; I find it strange that ships made of pins and tin (who also have low armor and structure) many times have equal or higher mass than other races. We get a higher base speed than other races sure, but this advantage is often negated by the fact that the mass of the ship is higher. (taranis vs claw anyone?)
/goes back trainging towards L Artillery spec with a tear in my eye...
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RedParasite
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:11:00 -
[77]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Any speed advantage on any minnie ship is completely negated by how that speed bonus effects it's damage due to its primary weapons systems tracking stats.
Speed is useless if you can't use it.
Tell ya what, I'll trade minmatar speed for gallente tracking and we'll all be happy.
Right on...re-vamp the tracking speed big time to allow for more frequent hits and higher damage and the speed factor becomes a big plus....
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RedParasite
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:11:00 -
[78]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Any speed advantage on any minnie ship is completely negated by how that speed bonus effects it's damage due to its primary weapons systems tracking stats.
Speed is useless if you can't use it.
Tell ya what, I'll trade minmatar speed for gallente tracking and we'll all be happy.
Right on...re-vamp the tracking speed big time to allow for more frequent hits and higher damage and the speed factor becomes a big plus....
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Arvandor
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:23:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.
With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.
---
My main is Ithildin.
Ithildin's currently in suspended animation. |
Arvandor
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:23:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.
With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.
---
My main is Ithildin.
Ithildin's currently in suspended animation. |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Arvandor
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.
With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.
prob is thos AC's chew ammo like a very large herd of very hungry sheeps in a very big field.
-------------------
Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Arvandor
Originally by: Selim
I agree completely Darlan. Minmatar ships are supposed to be fast, do huge amounts of damage over time at both short and long range damage, but have poor hitpoints and capacitors.
Right now we have:
Projectile suckage damage wise
Projectile suckage tracking wise
Speed that doesnt give much advantage.
All three of them combine to make one huge, crappy race of ships.
Negative.
You need to review your facts before posting extensively about something, you know.
With maximum skill bonuses from ships (ONLY)
Type: Heavy Neutron Blaster (Deimos) || 420mm Autocannon (Muninn)
Damage over time: x1.0417 || x0.7778
Capacitor use per second: 1.9 || 0.267
Optimal Range: 3000m || 2000m
Accuracy Falloff: 7500m || 12000m
Tracking: 0.1 || 0.1075
Note that tracking is better the farther you can hit a target
Powergrid %: 26.1% || 10.5%
CPU %: 11.2% || 6.76%
Ammo capacity: 4 || 2
Damage types: Kin, Ther || Kin, Ther, Exp, Emp.
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster. I must also point out that the strongest blaster is NOT effectively used due to the extreme (relative) fitting requirements of blasters.
Add in that why you use afterburners on minmatar ships is to escape shield and sig penalties rather than cap penalties.
Finally note, that the Deimos is the slowest heavy assault ship out there. It's even slower than Thorax. And Gallente is SUPPOSED to be close range.
prob is thos AC's chew ammo like a very large herd of very hungry sheeps in a very big field.
-------------------
Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:49:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 20:53:57
Yes but even Ion blasters do more than 25% more damage than the most damaging autocannon, the 425mm...
EDIT : Ion's actually do about 35% more damage 
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.09.29 20:49:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Zu Lu on 29/09/2004 20:53:57
Yes but even Ion blasters do more than 25% more damage than the most damaging autocannon, the 425mm...
EDIT : Ion's actually do about 35% more damage
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Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2004.09.29 21:24:00 -
[85]
Quote:
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster.
Which means all of **** when you take into account the fact that the autocannon's damage pales in comparision. Superficially, you're right, it's better in all those catagories. Fundementally however, you're absolutly wrong, because when you get down to it, the one, most important thing is the damage, and the autocannon just doesnt have it.
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Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2004.09.29 21:24:00 -
[86]
Quote:
There you have it, the strongest close range projectile will actually have better tracking, fitting, range and cap use per second than the strongest blaster.
Which means all of **** when you take into account the fact that the autocannon's damage pales in comparision. Superficially, you're right, it's better in all those catagories. Fundementally however, you're absolutly wrong, because when you get down to it, the one, most important thing is the damage, and the autocannon just doesnt have it.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2004.09.29 21:36:00 -
[87]
...in that issue I have to agree... and the solution could be a increase of the base Rof of the short range proj and a increase of the base dmg multiplier of the long range ones. But that's me rambling about 
-------------------
Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2004.09.29 21:36:00 -
[88]
...in that issue I have to agree... and the solution could be a increase of the base Rof of the short range proj and a increase of the base dmg multiplier of the long range ones. But that's me rambling about
-------------------
Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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dabster
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Posted - 2004.09.30 08:07:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Siddy
yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an ³ber pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)
Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can
Problem being that by the time these ships enter the market, we might not be able to fit oversized AB anymore :E
___________________________
Chicks dig Brutor's |
dabster
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Posted - 2004.09.30 08:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Siddy
yeah - with minnie Heavy assault shield resistances you need only to stick Medium CL-5 and 10MN MWD + 100mn AB and there you go - you will have an ³ber pwnage machine that goes insanely fast, (with inffinite cap) uses wepons that dont take cap (missiles and projectiles)
Granted - munnin or Vagabont wont be able to take BS 1 on 1 like deimos can - but im shure as hell that Deimos wont be able to pull out similar raiding tricks as Minmatar ships can
Problem being that by the time these ships enter the market, we might not be able to fit oversized AB anymore :E
___________________________
Chicks dig Brutor's |
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