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DmitryEKT AMMO INC	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:14:00 - [1] AC Cane is better than HAM Drake, with pilots of equal skill, in a 1v1 between the two ships. Discuss.
NoNah	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:16:00 - [2] This should be in the news section. Oh ... wait... no it shouldn't. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 686234
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:17:00 - [3] This should be in the incorrect statements section.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:29:00 - [4] Originally by: DmitryEKT AC Cane is better than HAM Drake, with pilots of equal skill, in a 1v1 between the two ships. Discuss. Well no. Tbh the HAM Drake would rip the cane a few new holes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
NoNah	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:30:00 - [5] Sshh, this is about a discussion in the trade channels. Don't ruin it. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 726864
DmitryEKT AMMO INC	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:31:00 - [6] I wanted lols and this thread has so far delivered. If I'd posted on CnP the replies wouldn't be quite so clueless... just goes to show how much bears treasure their faildrakes =/
VanNostrum The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.07.21 09:53:00 - [7] Originally by: DmitryEKT just goes to show how much bears treasure their faildrakes =/ you said "pilots of equal skills" bears treasuring faildrakes? pot calling the kettle black
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.21 10:17:00 - [8] Originally by: DmitryEKT I wanted lols and this thread has so far delivered. If I'd posted on CnP the replies wouldn't be quite so clueless... just goes to show how much bears treasure their faildrakes =/ You must have really low standards TBH. One person saying how HAM drakes are pretty good doesn't equal 'lols' for most people. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.21 10:31:00 - [9] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 21/07/2009 10:35:30 Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 21/07/2009 10:34:54 Originally by: DmitryEKT I wanted lols and this thread has so far delivered. If I'd posted on CnP the replies wouldn't be quite so clueless... just goes to show how much bears treasure their faildrakes =/ It is you my good man who provides the lols. You have no idea how to fit a Drake do you? Or even how to use it? I have used a HAM Drake extencively, every time I see a Cane on scan, I just think "Score". The only time I Cane might pose a problem is if its kiting you, and thats not too far fetched these days. (And also why Javelines exist) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.21 10:52:00 - [10] It takes about a year before a kiting cane kills a normal ham drake. Allthough that probably is the largest danger. Just a normal plated cane vs ham drake, my isk is on the ham drake.

Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:17:00 - [11] and then all of a sudden a PROPHECY warps in on the fight and kills them both. Discuss.
Pihtari Imperial Pharmacy	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:26:00 - [12] Edited by: Pihtari on 21/07/2009 11:26:06 My ISK is on the Prophecy.
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:34:00 - [13] Then Cyclone warps in and bump Prophecy into the sun.
Proteus Maximus Caldari Mine 'N' Refine New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:34:00 - [14] I would think the Harbinger would be better and mopping the floor with the pair of them TBH. I will find out for myself when I grow up and fly Amarr some day.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.21 11:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Mona X Then Cyclone warps in and bump Prophecy into the sun. The Sun is highly overrated. I have been in it once. a misplaced warp to command to my gang mate landed me in the smack middle oif it (he was in warp past it). The sun bumped me! :P at ridiculus speeds mind you, away from it. My meter reached over 100k m/s ^^. Fortunatly I was in a small agile ship, so I managed to slow down and warp again relatively fast :P. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.21 12:23:00 - [16] Try it in something big and heavy... like a dreadnought. I warped a Moros into the centre of a planet, the bump out was colossal!
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.07.21 12:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Mona X Then Cyclone warps in and bump Prophecy into the sun. I lol'd
Kail Storm	Posted - 2009.07.22 00:47:00 - [18] I jus twant you one time to explain why cane is better, and why you said in trade chat missles are for newbs only? All I want is a logical explanation, you said there that you can get a double plated PVP Cane to have more EHP than a Drake While still having more DPS, I hope The drake guys help me out but I dont think its possible. You also said that Drake sucks because it needs mid slots to use for tackle and thus kills its tank but you will have to sacrifice DPS for tank so I dont see the big advantage,. Also Drake has twice the optimal range with 600 dps with a good toon piloting, so Its not underpowered it just has to be used properly. Please explain all this, or dont say anything.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.22 01:07:00 - [19] I love my cane, but you're out of your mind if you think I'd solo engage a Drake in mine. The engagement will go down one of four ways: - He's tank fit and I can't break him solo - He's gank fit and I kite him (without **ing up) until I figure out it's an impossible fight and I should run - He's gank fit and either I go balls out or ** up and he catches me. I get my ass kicked between my ears - I way out SP him and come out in structure but with the victory My money is on #1 or #2 really.
fmercury Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.07.22 02:57:00 - [20] Nope, hamdrake wins. Easily. Cane is more flexible, though. performance 1v1 isn't everything.

Barak Tor Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.07.22 03:13:00 - [21] [Hurricane, pro anti drake cane] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II Remote Sensor Dampener II, Scan Resolution Dampening 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Scrambler II Medium Energy Neutralizer II Medium Nosferatu II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Vespa EC-600 x1 Hornet EC-300 x4 thats how everyone fits their canes right?
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis The Space P0lice	Posted - 2009.07.22 03:31:00 - [22] If the Cane kites, maybe if the HAM Drake doesn't have Javelins. If the cane is trimarked, slave'd out and starts the fight at 1.2km w/ web and 2pt, then yes it will win. But a slave set on one pilot is hardly equal pilots *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Serj Reaper Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.22 04:08:00 - [23] What if the drake is armor tanked and the cane is hull tanked?
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.07.22 04:38:00 - [24] Ok for the sake of argument let's pose the following: AC Cane & HAM Drake, with similar setups in the sense that both are running buffer, gank setups, no rigs. If I recall correctly the cane can put out close to 800 dps, with the drake sporting about 700. Buffers: Cane - about 11k medium resisted armor (around 50ish, except em which is higher) Drake - about 11k highly resisted shield (em being lowest with about 70ish, explosive +80) Also considering the minnie high dmg ammo which is explosive so switching to let's say phased plasma to avoid the high explosive resist (t2 ammo and emp) will result in lower dmg. How is a cane supposed to win against such odds? don't see it tbh, not with equal fits
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.22 05:24:00 - [25] I take it back, the Cane is going to win. Watch: Cane 6x 425mm AC II (Hail), 2x HAM II (CN XXX) 10mn MWD I, Domi Disruptor, 2x Gal Navy Web 1600 RT, TS EANM, DC II, 3x Domi Gyro 3x Trimark II Hammer II, 4 Hob II Slave Alpha-Omega, Ogdin's, MX-2, Pashan's, Akemon's 873 DPS, 96.7K EHP Drake 7x HAM II (CN Terror) 10mn MWD I, Scram II, Fleeting Web, LSE II, 2x Invuln II 3x BCS II, DC II 3x CDFE I 5x Hobgoblin II 589 DPS, 83K EHP Clearly the Hurricane is superior. /sarcasm. Note that the Hurricane when reasonably fit with Trimarks, T2 mods, no implants is dropping out 764 DPS at 60.5K EHP. Now let's have some fun by the numbers. :) - WRT Hail, the Drake has 105722 EHP. At 764 DPS the Cane will exhaust the Drake's EHP in ~138 seconds. - WRT RF EMP, the Drake has 81303 EHP. At 707 DPS the Cane will exhaust the Drake's EHP in ~115 seconds. - WRT CN Terror, the Cane has 58095 EHP. At 589 DPS the Drake will exhaust the Cane's EHP in ~97 seconds. - WRT CN Fulmination, the Cane has 53995 EHP. At 491 DPS the Drake will exhaust the Cane's EHP in ~109 seconds. Amusingly, if the Drake goes Cheap-o and uses resist rigs, it still takes the Trimarked Hurricane 95 seconds to deal enough DPS to get the kill. Conclusions: - If the Drake goes cheapo and the Cane goes expensive, the Cane can lose a grand total of 2600 damage through the entire fight to tracking or falloff before it's lost the match by the numbers. - If they both go expensive and the Cane doesn't lose any damage to tracking or falloff, the Drake can use unbonused missiles and still win. - EFT is utterly wrong because it ignores hit quantity and quality in its DPS calculations (volley / ROF is an incorrect calculation). - Given equal pilot skills, the Cane has no chance (yes, I realize this is a No True Scotsman)
Wideen Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.07.22 05:55:00 - [26] use Rage terror
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Kismo I take it back, the Cane is going to win. Watch: Cane 6x 425mm AC II (Hail), 2x HAM II (CN XXX) 10mn MWD I, Domi Disruptor, 2x Gal Navy Web 1600 RT, TS EANM, DC II, 3x Domi Gyro 3x Trimark II Hammer II, 4 Hob II Slave Alpha-Omega, Ogdin's, MX-2, Pashan's, Akemon's 873 DPS, 96.7K EHP Drake 7x HAM II (CN Terror) 10mn MWD I, Scram II, Fleeting Web, LSE II, 2x Invuln II 3x BCS II, DC II 3x CDFE I 5x Hobgoblin II 589 DPS, 83K EHP Clearly the Hurricane is superior. /sarcasm. Note that the Hurricane when reasonably fit with Trimarks, T2 mods, no implants is dropping out 764 DPS at 60.5K EHP. Now let's have some fun by the numbers. :) - WRT Hail, the Drake has 105722 EHP. At 764 DPS the Cane will exhaust the Drake's EHP in ~138 seconds. - WRT RF EMP, the Drake has 81303 EHP. At 707 DPS the Cane will exhaust the Drake's EHP in ~115 seconds. - WRT CN Terror, the Cane has 58095 EHP. At 589 DPS the Drake will exhaust the Cane's EHP in ~97 seconds. - WRT CN Fulmination, the Cane has 53995 EHP. At 491 DPS the Drake will exhaust the Cane's EHP in ~109 seconds. Amusingly, if the Drake goes Cheap-o and uses resist rigs, it still takes the Trimarked Hurricane 95 seconds to deal enough DPS to get the kill. Conclusions: - If the Drake goes cheapo and the Cane goes expensive, the Cane can lose a grand total of 2600 damage through the entire fight to tracking or falloff before it's lost the match by the numbers. - If they both go expensive and the Cane doesn't lose any damage to tracking or falloff, the Drake can use unbonused missiles and still win. - EFT is utterly wrong because it ignores hit quantity and quality in its DPS calculations (volley / ROF is an incorrect calculation). - Given equal pilot skills, the Cane has no chance (yes, I realize this is a No True Scotsman) Yes, giving Cane faction stuff and Drake not? What kinda lame tests are you perfomring? :P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Kismo Clearly the Hurricane is superior. /sarcasm. Yes, giving Cane faction stuff and Drake not? What kinda lame tests are you perfomring? :P Sarcastic ones, it seems.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:58:00 - [29] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 22/07/2009 08:59:43 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Kismo Clearly the Hurricane is superior. /sarcasm. Yes, giving Cane faction stuff and Drake not? What kinda lame tests are you perfomring? :P Sarcastic ones, it seems. hehe ;) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
fmercury Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.07.22 10:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Artemis Rose If the Cane kites, maybe if the HAM Drake doesn't have Javelins. If the cane is trimarked, slave'd out and starts the fight at 1.2km w/ web and 2pt, then yes it will win. But a slave set on one pilot is hardly equal pilots Cane kites he won't break passive recharge.

Speshtard Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.22 10:18:00 - [31] <INSERT COMMENT RELATING TO PAGE 2 SNIPE HERE>
Siobhan Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:16:00 - [32] dual rep myrm beats them both?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:17:00 - [33] Nop
Emily Poast The Whipping Post	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:35:00 - [34] I would be curious about the myrm. dual reps only wont win. dual reps + 800 or 1600 plate will hold out for quite a while with overheat, but its dps will be only in the ~400 range. Dunno honestly. Mathy-guy will have to figure it out.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:13:00 - [35] You can get a Myrm to tank a Drake's DPS. But you run into so many variables and unknowns that the simple DPS vs. EHP calculation that works fine for the Hurricane falls over. Such as: How many cap charges is the Myrm carrying? Is the Myrm MWDing about attempting to close range? Does the Drake shoot the Myrm's drones, allowing the active tank to recover? ECM drones? What's in the fifth midslot - RSD to help drones, lolECM burst, extra web, scrambler etc? ACs, blasters or lasers? Neuts? If there there was a BC that I had to choose to fight a HAM Drake, I'd choose a Myrm (apart from another HAM Drake obviously).
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Gypsio III If there there was a BC that I had to choose to fight a HAM Drake, I'd choose a Myrm (apart from another HAM Drake obviously). IMO there isn't a BC that can take a well fit and piloted Drake reliably, but I'd pick a gank Harby as the most likely to succeed at the task.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.07.22 16:09:00 - [37] moral to this story drake is OP nerf it!!!!!!
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:00:00 - [38] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Gypsio III If there there was a BC that I had to choose to fight a HAM Drake, I'd choose a Myrm (apart from another HAM Drake obviously). IMO there isn't a BC that can take a well fit and piloted Drake reliably, but I'd pick a gank Harby as the most likely to succeed at the task. The numbers still don't favour the Harbinger. To get the necessary EHP, the Harbinger needs slaves, trimarks, plates etc - at which point it's a flying brick and the Drake is faster and more agile, allowing it to sit towards the egde of HAM range, forcing the Harbinger to switch to lesser crystals or lose damage via falloff. I'd choose the Myrm because of the potential for massive Exile-powered active tank, together with the unpredictable extra midslot for extra tackle or ewar, and the room for ECM drones as well as combat drones. I don't know whether the cap would last though.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:01:00 - [39] Shield Tanked Harby, You can get 66k EHP and 800 DPS pretty easily. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:29:00 - [40] Originally by: SuiJuris Shield Tanked Harby, You can get 66k EHP and 800 DPS pretty easily. No, you can't. And even if you could, the Drake gets 50% more EHP and ~85% of the DPS, with no "tracking" problems, to over twice the lasers' optimal.

THEDON1 Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:51:00 - [41] would fight a ham spam drakE anyday in my cane and win my 425s would eat him for breakfast dinner and lunch
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: SuiJuris Shield Tanked Harby, You can get 66k EHP and 800 DPS pretty easily. No, you can't. And even if you could, the Drake gets 50% more EHP and ~85% of the DPS, with no "tracking" problems, to over twice the lasers' optimal. I'll admit a ham drake is rather impressive, with a DCU which you need to reach really high hp values for one, The Ham Drake can have full tackle and 71k EHP and 570 DPS with Rage Assault Missiles. You will have to excuse me the shield tanked harby that has over 60k EHP and 760 DPS was a gang setup with no point, If you have to put a point on it it tops out at around 53k EHP and 760 DPS. Now, a HEAVY Missile drake tops out at 469 DPS with 3 BCU's, If you fit a 4th BCU instead of a DCU 2 your tank drops from 70 some odd k EHP down to 56, and you still don't approuch the harbies damage. So a HAM Drake does 75% of the damage of a Shield Tank Harbie, and has 27% more hitpoints, The Harbie also out ranges it by 8km and is faster then it so as long as it doesn't initially enter web range it can kite it and kill it in under 2 minutes with scorch. The Heavy Missile Drake only does 61% of the damage a Shield tanked harby does and has 27% more hitpoints. And you cannot argue that the drake would be able to select damage types to find out where the Harbies resistance hole as it would NEVER make up the 10 seconds reload time if it guessed right on the second try. This is the fit I was using if you have a better one I'm interested. [Drake, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Requires a 3% cpu implant --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:45:00 - [43] Edited by: Davinel Lulinvega on 22/07/2009 20:46:40 Originally by: SuiJuris This is the fit I was using if you have a better one I'm interested. Posting the standard ham drake for the umpteenth time: [Drake, ham] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Fleeting Warp Disruptor I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x5 Same dps, 83k ehp. You can go cheaper on the rigs and still have over 70k, although in a month it will be moot. Requires 3% grid instead of 3% cpu. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Batsto	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:51:00 - [44] its definitely true that the Drake is superior in this hypothetical (if somewhat unlikely) 1 v 1, but what idiot Cane pilot is going to stick around to die? thats what the Cane offers: the ability to decide whether or not to engage
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.22 21:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Same dps, 83k ehp. You can go cheaper on the rigs and still have over 70k, although in a month it will be moot. Requires 3% grid instead of 3% cpu. Overheat the Invs and add gang bonuses and you get the 100k EHP figure. /EFT
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 21:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Batsto its definitely true that the Drake is superior in this hypothetical (if somewhat unlikely) 1 v 1, but what idiot Cane pilot is going to stick around to die? thats what the Cane offers: the ability to decide whether or not to engage No. The pilot decides, and its irrelevant what ship it is :). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.22 22:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Batsto its definitely true that the Drake is superior in this hypothetical (if somewhat unlikely) 1 v 1, but what idiot Cane pilot is going to stick around to die? thats what the Cane offers: the ability to decide whether or not to engage No. The pilot decides, and its irrelevant what ship it is :). Of course the pilot decides, but the ship determines how easy your will is to enforce. :)
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.07.22 23:47:00 - [48] Nerf drake? I think it is a factor of a few things, that killing a drake in a hurricane is a hard task: * The +5% Resist bonus, ability to overload Invulns (for over 2 minutes), shield extenders, shield extension rigs. These things all stack up very nicely and add a lot of EHP and of course a nice passive recharge as a bonus, almost OP if you ask me. * The passive recharge on the drake adds a considerable amount of tank over a fight, for example the fits posted here have about 100-150 dps tank, a number you can subtract from the dps you are putting on it. I.e. essentially the other guy has at least 100 dps less than he thinks he has when fighting you. (This factor may be negated by high signature and low agility of the drake.) * Tracking is a non issue for the Drake pilot using HAM's, if he fits a web he can totally negate the advantage the Hurricane pilot could have by fitting an AB to sig/speed tank the missiles. Outside web range the Drake out-damages the Hurricane anyways... The Drake will want to keep the Hurricane in web range as long as possible to keep the Hurricane from running away. * Tracking IS an issue for the Hurricane pilot. Too close your guns can't track, too far away you loose a lot of damage to falloff and in this case you cannot afford that. Your peak damage in the Hurricane is 2.5-3 km or 5 km depending on situation, inside web-range. * Rigs. A few things here, the Drakes shield tank gives 15% more shield, but the drawback is only 5% bigger signature, something Drake pilots do not really worry about because they fit shield extenders and that caldari ships already have big signatures. These rigs are also relatively cheap compared to trimarks, which give, yes 15% more armor. But the drawback is huge! -5% base speed, an attribute which is generally much more important in PVP and very important to a 'Cane pilot. If the pilot fits trimarks he looses his speed advantage and the EHP still doesn't even compare to the Drakes, a side effect is that the H. will take longer to get into optimal range, if it can, and has also lost its ability to run away. The trimarks are also more expensive, making it a less viable option... For a Hurricane to win against a Drake I think it should be fit like this: [Hurricane, Anti Drake] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Energy Neutralizer II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Energy Neutralizer II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Projectile Collision Accelerator I Projectile Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot] Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Needs +3% pg implant, just like the "standar ham drake fit." Strat: Get into optimal range ASAP, that's about 5km. Scram on, turn off your own mwd. Don't worry about orbiting, just keep his transversal as low as possible for max dps output. Overload the multispec and neuts from the start of the fight. (This might give advantage: Wait for him to deploy drones, web each one and deploy your own drones on it, take them down one by one quickly.) When Drake is reaching 40-35% shields overload your guns, stop overloading neuts (and maybe scatter them, hopefully his cap is dry/very low.) So I imagine with a bit of luck you can win... wrecking shots, lucky jam, drakes invulns turning off because of no cap. (Not likely though. ) PS. The fit is cheaper than the drakes and still versatile in other situations. I wish though, that there were some more useful rig options for the hurricane in this particular situation. Please point out anything I missed or is just wrong.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 03:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Myrkala ... Ok, since you bring up heat and jamming. This makes it kinda hard, but I'm sure we'll see roughly how things will go. Hurricane: - EHP WRT Kin: 50905 - DPS: 692 OL (~45 sec max), 616 Remaining - Pct chance to jam Drake: 18.9% (overloaded) - Time until Drake's cap emptied: 45-76 sec (2x overloaded neuts + mods, range = 60-100% starting fight) Drake: - EHP WRT RF EMP + Hobs: 92046 (OL Invuln), 63072 (No invuln) - EHP WRT RF EMP + Hobs = cap_pct_started_with * (92046 - 63072) + 63072 - DPS: 670 OL (~45 sec max), 589 remaining - DPS Adjusted for jamming: 562 OL, 496 Remaining (Drones aren't jammed) So the fight will start, presumably at the Hurricane's optimal and nobody will move (just for the sake of argument). I'll cover the Drake first since it's the easy case. 28974 Drake damage profile: 562 DPS first 54 seconds (no heat damage while jammed) [30348 damage] 496 DPS remaining 41 sec [20557 damage] Est TTK: 95 sec Hurricane damage profile: 692 DPS first 45 seconds [31140 damage] 616 DPS remaining (depending on Drake initial cap): 0%: 51.8 sec [31932.0 damage] 10%: 56.5 sec [34829.4 damage] 20%: 61.2 sec [37726.8 damage] 30%: 65.9 sec [40624.2 damage] 40%: 70.6 sec [43521.6 damage] 50%: 75.3 sec [46419.0 damage] 60%: 80.0 sec [49316.4 damage] 70%: 84.7 sec [52213.8 damage] 80%: 89.4 sec [55111.2 damage] 90%: 94.1 sec [58008.6 damage] 100%: 98.8 sec [60906.0 damage] Est TTK: 96.8 - 143.8 sec Conclusion: Even assuming perfect damage for the Cane and the Drake starting the fight without any cap at all, the Drake still wins unless the Cane runs. In fact, pretty much the best case for the Cane is the Drake to be in deep structure at the end of the fight. That said, the Hurricane will be able to warp out because it takes 76 seconds to cap the Drake (from 100%) and 95 seconds for the Drake to get the kill.
ARALIEUS Amarr Knight's Cross	Posted - 2009.07.23 04:27:00 - [50] =) My corpmate had already broke his tank by the time I arrived. Maybe you should lay off the calculator's and EFT a little -Ara

De Guantanamo	Posted - 2009.07.23 05:53:00 - [51] Originally by: ARALIEUS =) My corpmate had already broke his tank by the time I arrived. Maybe you should lay off the calculator's and EFT a little Wow....this is a troll right? Glad you understand what the actual debate is about... To start, that's not even a solo kill. I'm not even going to try and explain why the fit makes me cry...
ARALIEUS Amarr Knight's Cross	Posted - 2009.07.23 06:33:00 - [52] Originally by: De Guantanamo Originally by: ARALIEUS =) My corpmate had already broke his tank by the time I arrived. Maybe you should lay off the calculator's and EFT a little Wow....this is a troll right? Glad you understand what the actual debate is about... To start, that's not even a solo kill. I'm not even going to try and explain why the fit makes me cry... 1. No this is not a troll 2. Yes I know what this discussion is over. Who will in in a solo BC fight Cane or Drake 3. If you actually read what I wrote then you would see the I mentioned my corpmate had already had the Drake in armor when I arrived, thus was dead anyway seeing as how my corpmates tank hadnt even broke a sweat. The point I was truly trying to make is its not all about the math , its more about the situation! -Ara
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.23 06:49:00 - [53] You do realise we are talking about 2 pvp fitted ships? I dont think there are people here who doubted a hurricane could kill a drake fitted for exploration...
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:01:00 - [54] Originally by: ARALIEUS 2. Yes I know what this discussion is over. Who will in in a solo BC fight Cane or Drake The point I was truly trying to make is its not all about the math , its more about the situation! 1. You got on the kill. It is thus, not a solo kill. 2. Drake was clearly not fit for pvp. Thus that fit has no merit to this discussion. 3. Your point about "more about the situation" almost has merit; EFT and other calculations should never replace TQ live pvp. Here is where you fail tho: r ead op again. AC cane vs. HAM drake. Please fix yourself and look closely at the launchers on that killmail.
ARALIEUS Amarr Knight's Cross	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:06:00 - [55] Originally by: De Guantanamo Originally by: ARALIEUS 2. Yes I know what this discussion is over. Who will in in a solo BC fight Cane or Drake The point I was truly trying to make is its not all about the math , its more about the situation! 1. You got on the kill. It is thus, not a solo kill. 2. Drake was clearly not fit for pvp. Thus that fit has no merit to this discussion. 3. Your point about "more about the situation" almost has merit; EFT and other calculations should never replace TQ live pvp. Here is where you fail tho: r ead op again. AC cane vs. HAM drake. Please fix yourself and look closely at the launchers on that killmail. Busted, lol I am a little biased tho cause imo Drakes are overpowerd and quite possibly the hardest ships in game to overcome except fot Falcon(being solo 1 v 1 that is) -Ara
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:20:00 - [56] Originally by: ARALIEUS =) My corpmate had already broke his tank by the time I arrived. Maybe you should lay off the calculator's and EFT a little Oh wow, you managed to kill a fail passive drake, however did you do that!? I am so shocked. Gtfo troll :P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:24:00 - [57] Originally by: ARALIEUS Originally by: De Guantanamo Originally by: ARALIEUS 2. Yes I know what this discussion is over. Who will in in a solo BC fight Cane or Drake The point I was truly trying to make is its not all about the math , its more about the situation! 1. You got on the kill. It is thus, not a solo kill. 2. Drake was clearly not fit for pvp. Thus that fit has no merit to this discussion. 3. Your point about "more about the situation" almost has merit; EFT and other calculations should never replace TQ live pvp. Here is where you fail tho: r ead op again. AC cane vs. HAM drake. Please fix yourself and look closely at the launchers on that killmail. Busted, lol I am a little biased tho cause imo Drakes are overpowerd and quite possibly the hardest ships in game to overcome except fot Falcon(being solo 1 v 1 that is) Lol, Drake is good, but its hardly overpowerd. While it wil likly win in a 1v1 against any other BC, it has shortcomming as well. Take the Cane; it has speed for example. The Harb just got awsome gang dps. I have killed plenty of other Drake, jsut bring a teammate, or a bigger ships. Trop Ravens work exceptionally well agains the Drakes slow moving ass and big signature ;). I also find it quite funny how now a days Drakes are finally starting to get popular, while just short year back it was lol Drake. Tho back then teh general community only fitted lol passive tanks eve in PvP. :P -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 14:16:00 - [58] Originally by: ARALIEUS Busted, lol I am a little biased tho cause imo Drakes are overpowerd and quite possibly the hardest ships in game to overcome except fot Falcon(being solo 1 v 1 that is) Whoa, whoa, whoa... I wouldn't say that Drakes are overpowered - by no means head and shoulders above the other BC's. I'd say they're just very good. Just that you won't kill an equally skilled (SP + player) Drake in another T1 BC. The other BCs have their uses that the Drake doesn't - like instant damage, speed, drones, or what-have-you. Do they make up for it in close range brawling? Maaaaaybe not. Probably not.
fivetide humidyear Gallente The Avalon Foundation The Drift.	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:22:00 - [59] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: SuiJuris Shield Tanked Harby, You can get 66k EHP and 800 DPS pretty easily. No, you can't. And even if you could, the Drake gets 50% more EHP and ~85% of the DPS, with no "tracking" problems, to over twice the lasers' optimal. nearly right, shield tanked gank harbinger using the correct crystals will out damage the drakes passive regen at a range where the drakes HAM's can't hit. and if you didn't break the drakes regen then you try overheating, running away or switching to amarr navy MF and going in close which would make it a really close fight.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:30:00 - [60] Originally by: fivetide humidyear Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: SuiJuris Shield Tanked Harby, You can get 66k EHP and 800 DPS pretty easily. No, you can't. And even if you could, the Drake gets 50% more EHP and ~85% of the DPS, with no "tracking" problems, to over twice the lasers' optimal. nearly right, shield tanked gank harbinger using the correct crystals will out damage the drakes passive regen at a range where the drakes HAM's can't hit. and if you didn't break the drakes regen then you try overheating, running away or switching to amarr navy MF and going in close which would make it a really close fight. Unless the drake is carrying javelins. I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. Going in close against a drake is suicide. Once he webs you it's over. All this talk about overheating seems to be ignoring the fact that the drake can overheat too. The only way to beat it is to stay outside of ham range. This is all it comes down to. The harb/cane points the drake and sits at around 20km with scorch/barrage. After this: If the drake has javelins the other bc disengages. If the drake doesn't it dies.

Dagobert Dog	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:37:00 - [61] The drake cant win a 1v1 because the meme "Caldari/Solo/PVP/success pick three" is still true! And the drake is caldari, so it will loose agaimst amy pvp-fit ship!
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:39:00 - [62] Honestly, the Multispec idea isn't that bad. Based purely on the numbers, I the Hurricane above when fit with trimarks instead of a pair of near useless damage rigs could beat the Drake most times. Also, I'd put money on Fivetide knowing from whence he speaks (Hi Five!)
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:41:00 - [63] So, looking again at a Harbinger, Armor tanked this time, it can sport 620 dps and 76k ehp, or 462 dps with a full flight of medium ECM drones. Whats the Jam Chance against a drake with a full flight of medium ECM drones?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:47:00 - [64] Zero after the ECM drones pop from Warriors and HAMs/HMs.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:47:00 - [65] Originally by: SuiJuris So, looking again at a Harbinger, Armor tanked this time, it can sport 620 dps and 76k ehp, or 462 dps with a full flight of medium ECM drones. Whats the Jam Chance against a drake with a full flight of medium ECM drones? Ask EFT, otherwise the chance of getting a jam is: Jammer Strength / Sensor Strength Thus the chance to not be jammed is: 1 - JS / SS Thus the chance to not be jammed with multiple jammers is (1 - JS/SS) ** NumJammers There's a bit about optimal and falloff in there, but I don't think it actually applies to this situation. A full(ish) formula: (1 - JS/SSFalloffPct) * NumJammers
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:51:00 - [66] Originally by: Gypsio III Zero after the ECM drones pop from Warriors and HAMs/HMs. Well, that's not quite true. Mostly it's not true because the first round of ECM will hit the Drake regardless. So you should have like a ~15% chance of getting a 20 second jam off initially, and they can't even direct their drones at that time (which is to say as long as you shoot them first, it isn't happening). If they're flying a HML Drake then they can load FOFs, but you can defeat that by getting in close or by scooping your drones once you notice the lock fail. Also, for all the time they're busy shooting your drones, you're busy whittling away their HP. I mean, I don't know if it's enough to really shift the balance, but it might work out for you. Best chance you really have so why not take it?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.07.23 16:08:00 - [67] Yeah, ECM drones are good, and they're damn effective when they work. But they also have virtually no HP and are horribly vulnerable to missiles. I'd primary them and, if their first cycle failed, have killed most if not all after 20 seconds, whereas I'd just leave combat drones be. It's not a bad idea, just be aware of the drawbacks.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.23 16:13:00 - [68] Ya, Don't get me wrong, Im not trying to deny the pure awesomeness of a well piloted and skilled Drake, just tryign to come up with a Theoretical BC that can take it in a 1v1. According to my Mathes the harbinger could do it but it is rather close. Would the drake have to reload in the first 100 seconds of combat?
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.07.23 16:31:00 - [69] Originally by: SuiJuris Would the drake have to reload in the first 100 seconds of combat? No, it won't; ROF on HAMs is bit over 3s, first reload would be well into 2 minutes of fight. As for staying at 20km in hopes for nailing Drake with long-range ammo - it MIGHT work for Scorch - due to fight being close as it is and insta-swap to MF when needed - but for Hurricane it doesn't really work. It's not hard for Drake to catch plated Harb/Hurri if they're staying at 20 - or get away. Usually beating HAM Drake in a 1v1 ends up due to Drake pilot not having all lvl 5s and/or 2x5% hardwirings, etc. Technically you'd be best off with dual-rep+Plate(mb +Exiled) Myrm or even tripple-rep one - but that's purely 1v1 kitted BC, while Drake has its uses in gang and in 1vX.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 17:47:00 - [70] Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 23/07/2009 16:10:06 So, looking again at a Harbinger, Armor tanked this time, it can sport 620 dps and 76k ehp, or 462 dps with a full flight of medium ECM drones. Whats the Jam Chance against a drake with a full flight of medium ECM drones? So did some math, If the drake starts out shooting explosive (lowest resistance on a armor tanked harbinger, the harby has 70.7k ehp, and the drake has 72.6k ehp vs the harbingers damage type. Harbinger TTK Drake = 72.6k / 620 = 117 seconds to kill. Drake TTK Harbinger = 70.7k / 570 = 124 seconds to kill. This assumes the Harbinger doesn't lose any damage to tracking, But really it shouldn't the drakes signature radius is HUGE and its not exactly a speed demon. Sacrificing the 25% kin bonus just to hit a slightly lower resist (62.6% kin vs 60.1% expl) is a mistake. Compare using terror rage or cn terror. Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: SuiJuris Would the drake have to reload in the first 100 seconds of combat? No, it won't; ROF on HAMs is bit over 3s, first reload would be well into 2 minutes of fight. As for staying at 20km in hopes for nailing Drake with long-range ammo - it MIGHT work for Scorch - due to fight being close as it is and insta-swap to MF when needed - but for Hurricane it doesn't really work. It's not hard for Drake to catch plated Harb/Hurri if they're staying at 20 - or get away. Usually beating HAM Drake in a 1v1 ends up due to Drake pilot not having all lvl 5s and/or 2x5% hardwirings, etc. Technically you'd be best off with dual-rep+Plate(mb +Exiled) Myrm or even tripple-rep one - but that's purely 1v1 kitted BC, while Drake has its uses in gang and in 1vX. Kiting would be a job for a shield cane or harb obviously.

Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.07.23 17:48:00 - [71] When people pop out DPS numbers, are you taking into account resists as well? I believe EFT's count is unresisted...so it would be less in both cases.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 17:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Agent Known When people pop out DPS numbers, are you taking into account resists as well? I believe EFT's count is unresisted...so it would be less in both cases. He is not taking resists into account for the dps number because he is comparing to ehp. If you did that you would be counting resists twice.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 18:20:00 - [73] Originally by: Agent Known When people pop out DPS numbers, are you taking into account resists as well? I believe EFT's count is unresisted...so it would be less in both cases. Yes, I included resists. If you note, I was talking about "With Respect To Hail, the Drake has ... EHP". This indicates that I not only worked off of EHP (which is normalized hitpoints based off of HP and resists), but that I normalized around the proper damage profile.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.23 19:21:00 - [74] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Originally by: SuiJuris Edited by: SuiJuris on 23/07/2009 16:10:06 So, looking again at a Harbinger, Armor tanked this time, it can sport 620 dps and 76k ehp, or 462 dps with a full flight of medium ECM drones. Whats the Jam Chance against a drake with a full flight of medium ECM drones? So did some math, If the drake starts out shooting explosive (lowest resistance on a armor tanked harbinger, the harby has 70.7k ehp, and the drake has 72.6k ehp vs the harbingers damage type. Harbinger TTK Drake = 72.6k / 620 = 117 seconds to kill. Drake TTK Harbinger = 70.7k / 570 = 124 seconds to kill. This assumes the Harbinger doesn't lose any damage to tracking, But really it shouldn't the drakes signature radius is HUGE and its not exactly a speed demon. Sacrificing the 25% kin bonus just to hit a slightly lower resist (62.6% kin vs 60.1% expl) is a mistake. Compare using terror rage or cn terror. Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: SuiJuris Would the drake have to reload in the first 100 seconds of combat? No, it won't; ROF on HAMs is bit over 3s, first reload would be well into 2 minutes of fight. As for staying at 20km in hopes for nailing Drake with long-range ammo - it MIGHT work for Scorch - due to fight being close as it is and insta-swap to MF when needed - but for Hurricane it doesn't really work. It's not hard for Drake to catch plated Harb/Hurri if they're staying at 20 - or get away. Usually beating HAM Drake in a 1v1 ends up due to Drake pilot not having all lvl 5s and/or 2x5% hardwirings, etc. Technically you'd be best off with dual-rep+Plate(mb +Exiled) Myrm or even tripple-rep one - but that's purely 1v1 kitted BC, while Drake has its uses in gang and in 1vX. Kiting would be a job for a shield cane or harb obviously. Bah, I always forget the drake has a kinetic bonus and the Raven has the ROF bonus.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 19:29:00 - [75] Originally by: SuiJuris Bah, I always forget the drake has a kinetic bonus and the Raven has the ROF bonus. I wish. Then it really would be overpowered .
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2009.07.23 19:47:00 - [76] Last night when I took my cane against a drake I wasn't breaking his tank fast enough, so I stuck my point on its rapier buddy who had conviniently warped in at scram range instead and proceded to anihilate it. The rapier died. My friendly blob landed. 10 people shooting at the drake and I still was in armor by the time that it died.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 19:52:00 - [77] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Last night when I took my cane against a drake I wasn't breaking his tank fast enough, so I stuck my point on its rapier buddy who had conviniently warped in at scram range instead and proceded to anihilate it. The rapier died. My friendly blob landed. 10 people shooting at the drake and I still was in armor by the time that it died. Lol, what a terrible rapier pilot. Hitting warp to 0 while cloaked is a good idea right?
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.07.23 20:08:00 - [78] Originally by: Kismo Interesting stuff. Yeah, the Hurricane needs some luck to win if skills are equal, did you think about the strat of killing the drakes drones with web? Think it lowers his dps by about 100. Also you didn't include the passive recharge of the drake, figuring out how much extra HP it recharges over the fight, EFT says 150 dps tanked with 2x OL invulns at peak, is probably a bit tricky and would probably require some differential calculus equation so I am not going to ask you to do that. All in all, Tier 2 BC are well balanced and it is kind of a rock/paper/scissor game. The HAM drake is a very formidable opponent in 1vs1, and I think we will be seeing a lot more of them if the price range on medium shield rigs will be affordable once they become available. This might lead to forumwhines, leading to CCP nerfhammer on either drakes, rigs or missiles. Off topic: Personally if it were my decision I would probably nerf the Drakes dronebay and maybe speed. I am slightly biased but I think Minni BC should have bigger dronebays and bandwith as well. Cyclone would be really nice with a 75m3 dronebay, and it would turn it into a shield tanking "mini-bigger-than-fleet-scythe-phoon". 40m3 or 50m3 drone bay on the Hurricane. Silly tunnel-vision dreams...
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 20:24:00 - [79] Originally by: Myrkala Yeah, the Hurricane needs some luck to win if skills are equal, did you think about the strat of killing the drakes drones with web? Think it lowers his dps by about 100. Yeah, but I'm not sure it's really worthwhile. I can run the numbers for you when I get home if you'd like. Quote: Also you didn't include the passive recharge of the drake, figuring out how much extra HP it recharges over the fight, EFT says 150 dps tanked with 2x OL invulns at peak, is probably a bit tricky and would probably require some differential calculus equation so I am not going to ask you to do that. I did think about it, and I even have the software available to run said simulation... but I elected not to. The Drake was already winning regardless and I didn't feel like making it even worse. There are reasonable approximations for HP regen though - and in this case since the incoming DPS is so much greater than the recharge rate, it's really somewhat negligible. It may add a few thousand extra EHP to worry through for the entire fight. Quote: All in all, Tier 2 BC are well balanced and it is kind of a rock/paper/scissor game. The HAM drake is a very formidable opponent in 1vs1, and I think we will be seeing a lot more of them if the price range on medium shield rigs will be affordable once they become available. This might lead to forumwhines, leading to CCP nerfhammer on either drakes, rigs or missiles. Oh yeah, the HAM Drake is powerful across a wide variety of places - but it's by no means invincible or useful in all situations. Quote: Off topic: Personally if it were my decision I would probably nerf the Drakes dronebay and maybe speed. I am slightly biased but I think Minni BC should have bigger dronebays and bandwith as well. Cyclone would be really nice with a 75m3 dronebay, and it would turn it into a shield tanking "mini-bigger-than-fleet-scythe-phoon". 40m3 or 50m3 drone bay on the Hurricane. Silly tunnel-vision dreams... I don't really support any nerfs on the Drake, but I am a big fan of a buffed Cyclone. Cyclone 8 Highs (5x Turret, 5x Missile) 6x Mids 4x Lows 50 m^3 bandwidth, 75 m^3 dronebay 5% Proj ROF, 5% Missile ROF I am a big fan. Gimme Gimme Gimme! (I don't like or use the rep bonus anyway...)
Marquis Jeladriel	Posted - 2009.07.23 20:55:00 - [80] By now, as I'm sure you're all aware, we are flogging a dead horse - we know that the Drake is no longer considered the lolDrake for solo/1v1 pvp. I haven't seen a Brutix setup thrown into the mix yet. Now I'm reckoning if you had to start out at any sort of distance away from the Drake - you'd lose because you'd be taking damage as you approach and the short range of blasters would really spank you. However - if you managed somehow to land and start fighting within 3-5km (stupidly rare circumstances) and pound on it immediately... Could the surprise factor get you a win? I present to the table for discussion - the 1000dps Brutix (handily swiped from BattleClinic). Lows DC II EANM II 3x MFS II Mids Y-T8 MWD Scrammer II Fleeting Web Medium Cap Booster I - 800s Highs 7x Neutron Blaster II - Caldari Navy Antimatter Ammo Drones 5x Hammerhead IIs Rigs Ancillary Current Router I (here's hoping different sized rigs are going to make these cheaper) 2x Trimark I (these being cheaper would be nice too) Implants - (I think these may have been against the rules) PG8 - 5% more powergrid Eifyr Gunslinger AX-2 - 5% Tracking Speed Bonus Eifyr Gunslinger CX-2 - 5% All turret damage bonus Zainou Deadeye ZGM1000 - 5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage bonus Just shy of 40K hp. 900dps - 1011dps when overheated. Continuing with the Brutix and blaster theme: 2x Mar II DC II 2x MFS II Y-T8 MWD Scrammer II Fleeting Web Medium Cap Booster I - 800s 7x Ion II (CN AM Ammo) ACR 2x Aux Nano Pump Same Implants That produces 783dps - 877 overheated 32k ehp with a 212/222 Sustained/Reinforced Defence efficency (with the MWD off) Would either have a chance to win against an equally skilled HAM Drake? Or no dice? (I would try an do the math thing/damage profile that previous posters have done but I'm not clever enough... I also lack an toon with the relevent skills to go test it on SiSi)

Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 20:58:00 - [81] IIRC the Neutron Brutix gets better DPS/EHP with a shield tank. I'll run the numbers for you once I get home, but the short answer is 'no'.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:07:00 - [82] 1000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Even with overheating it only gets to 965. [Brutix, GANK] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Invulnerability Field II Warp Scrambler II Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 860 dps 51k ehp
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:10:00 - [83] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega 1000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Even with overheating it only gets to 965. 1000 DPS is with 5% hardwirings.
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:12:00 - [84] Originally by: Kismo Cyclone 8 Highs (5x Turret, 5x Missile) 6x Mids 4x Lows 50 m^3 bandwidth, 75 m^3 dronebay 5% Proj ROF, 5% Missile ROF I am a big fan. Gimme Gimme Gimme! (I don't like or use the rep bonus anyway...) I do like the rep bonus, sometimes.
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:13:00 - [85] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega 1000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Even with overheating it only gets to 965. 1000 DPS is with 5% hardwirings. Lol.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:14:00 - [86] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega 1000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Even with overheating it only gets to 965. 1000 DPS is with 5% hardwirings. Lol. Hey, it was even in the post where he suggested the Brutix!
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:18:00 - [87] Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega 1000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Even with overheating it only gets to 965. 1000 DPS is with 5% hardwirings. Lol. Hey, it was even in the post where he suggested the Brutix! The point is they're completely unrealistic and not relevant to the comparison.
Marquis Jeladriel	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:20:00 - [88] @ Kismo - figured the short answer would be no. I presume that this is the sheild buffer Brutix you're talking about DC II 3x MFS II RC II Y-T8 MWD Scrammer II LSE II Large F-S9 Regolith Sheild Induction 7x Neutron Blaster II - CN AM 5x Hammerhead II 3x Core Defence Field Extender I Same implants as before. 51k buffer 900 - 1011 dps It'll be interesting to see how far short it falls
Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega The point is they're completely unrealistic and not relevant to the comparison. Heh, no, the point is that if you can have them so can he... and thus the line in the sand doesn't really change all that much. It might be interesting to run the numbers with 3% hardwirings and no pirate implants though - it might change things a bit. Not a whole hell of alot, and probably not enough to make a difference... but every little bit helps. ;-)
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.07.23 21:26:00 - [90] Originally by: Kismo Heh, no, the point is that if you can have them so can he... and thus the line in the sand doesn't really change all that much. It might be interesting to run the numbers with 3% hardwirings and no pirate implants though - it might change things a bit. Not a whole hell of alot, and probably not enough to make a difference... but every little bit helps. ;-) Yes, that is what not relevant means.

Kismo	Posted - 2009.07.24 06:46:00 - [91] Originally by: Marquis Jeladriel It'll be interesting to see how far short it falls Brutix 7x Neutron II (CN AM) 10mn MWD I, Scram II, LSE II, Invuln II (overload for ~4:30) 3x MFS II, RCU II, DC II 3x CDFE I 5x Hammerhead II 831 DPS, 62155 EHP WRT Scourge TTK: 119 sec Drake 589 DPS, 98851 EHP WRT CN AM (overload for ~3:00) TTK: 105 sec Let's mix it up and use ECM drones: 33.7% chance to jam. I'd like to remind you that this (and the previous discussion of ECM drones) is merely an extrapolated average case if they're allowed to sit in space. It won't happen that way, because you'll get (at most) 20 seconds of 'free' combat when you decide to pop drones - because that's exactly what he's going to do the moment he sees them! Drake DPS => 424, TTK => 147 sec (est avg 50 seconds [2.5 cycles] jammed). Brutix DPS => 672 TTK => 147 sec. Conclusion: The shield tanked Brutix is a good contender, but I'm fairly confident that it's really only a contender in EFT-land because of the influence of jamming drones and tactics. I'd really expect a maximum aggregate jam time of 30 seconds (and more likely in the mid teens) - which leaves the Drake with a TTK of ~120 sec.
Siobhan Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.24 11:16:00 - [92] and with an active tank? and maybe a nos? i wouldn't expect any ship to win against another ship without using all its ship bonuses.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.24 11:20:00 - [93] With the sad ammount of low slots + PG a brutix has, using its rep bonus is just a waste of a not that bad ship.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.07.24 11:51:00 - [94] OP is a succesful troll... I gotta give him 9/10 for getting 4 pages.
Marquis Jeladriel	Posted - 2009.07.24 14:33:00 - [95] Cheers for running the numbers Kismo. Was very useful - the 3% eifyr implants are maybe a touch on the expensive side, but I guess if you're aiming for them to specifically use then they're worth it for that extra little bit of edge. (The 5% ones on the other hand are rediculously unrealistic in price for your average pvper) The 5% Zainou Implant isn't very expensive at all though. I picked one up in Aunia a few days ago for 4.5 mil . It seems that they drop from storyline missions in that region with a high enough frequency to drive the price down. (Very Cheap compared to the price in Jita - 25mil from the top of my head) The on paper DPS seems good enough to challenge both the HAM Drake or an AC Cane but I fear in game, the lack of a Stasis Webifier on the Brutix fit would put it at too much of a disadvantage in both cases (and Webber drones in this case just wouldn't cut it - only able to use 2) Of course the 1v1 situation is very rare compared to the numerous other scenarios you may find yourself in with gate guns/rats/corpmates aiding either side providing either DPS/Tackle/Logistics - so the sheild tanked Brutix still remains a viable PVP Brawler. Something to aim for I guess
SuiJuris	Posted - 2009.07.24 16:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Lindsay Logan OP is a succesful troll... I gotta give him 9/10 for getting 4 pages. Screw rather or not the OP was trying to troll, This was 4 pages of unadulterated EFT warrioring at its finest, Which is always fun. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one."
fivetide humidyear Gallente The Avalon Foundation The Drift.	Posted - 2009.07.24 16:27:00 - [97] one thing this thread does show is that across the races the BC class is pretty reasonably balanced and fights often come down to actual player skill with stategy and counter strategy. who would have thought. until the rest of the blob turn up anyway. and ello kismo mate, hope alls well, i has another pr0 alliance :)


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