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Blackfyre 001	Posted - 2009.07.21 16:21:00 - [1] I am fairly new to eve. I just broke the 2 mil skill point boundary. I am however concerned that I will never be able to compete with the older eve players who have 35+ million skill points. Am I, and every other new player, doomed to always be worse at everything than them or is it possible to catch up?
Suihon Denila	Posted - 2009.07.21 16:36:00 - [2] Not true. There are only 5 levels for each skill: when you max a certain "tree", let it be a ship, or a module or whatever, nobody can be better than you in that field (not counting "real" pilot skills of course).
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.21 17:47:00 - [3] Old players have one advantage: experience. Skill points don't matter as much. Older players are more likely to have skill points in several ships, weapons systems, trade, social, and industry, and none of which makes a difference since they can only pilot one ship at a time. Their research level 5 skill really doesn't mean anything when they are shooting at you. Takes a few months to get your support, ship, and weapon skills to level 5. But after that, only experience is the difference.
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.07.21 17:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Old players have one advantage: experience. Skill points don't matter as much. Older players are more likely to have skill points in several ships, weapons systems, trade, social, and industry, and none of which makes a difference since they can only pilot one ship at a time. Their research level 5 skill really doesn't mean anything when they are shooting at you. Takes a few months to get your support, ship, and weapon skills to level 5. But after that, only experience is the difference. this
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2009.07.21 18:23:00 - [5] I've got over 18M SP just in Spaceship Command; I can fly about 200 different ships and yet I usually fly only 3 (Firetail, Abaddon, Mammoth). Of course I could've flown those same 3 ships with the same efficiency with less than 2M SP in Spaceship Command - that means I've got 16M in Spaceship Command alone which I hardly ever use. It's wasted. I've got Large Hybrid Turret IV, but I've never even seen a large hybrid turret (well, as mission loot perhaps, but never used one). It's wasted. I've got all EWAR skills and all I ever do is run missions and carebear. It's wasted. 2M SP to be capable to create alliances, but never created one. It's wasted. Really, getting more useful SP than I have won't be very hard since my 52M SP is all over the place in various skills which I either never use, or only use for special purposes. Then there are the loads of skills which are mutually exclusive. Having maxed out cruiser skills is useless when I'm in a battleship or frigate... FREE! jumpclone service: Forum thread\|Podlog
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.21 19:03:00 - [6] SP total is not like class levels. If you're used to thinking of things that way, think of EvE as haing a low level cap but also allowing you to multiclass as much as you like.
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2009.07.21 20:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Old players have one advantage: experience. Skill points don't matter as much. Older players are more likely to have skill points in several ships, weapons systems, trade, social, and industry, and none of which makes a difference since they can only pilot one ship at a time. Their research level 5 skill really doesn't mean anything when they are shooting at you. Takes a few months to get your support, ship, and weapon skills to level 5. But after that, only experience is the difference. And moonies. Older players might have also some implants, boosters, faction or better mods.
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.07.21 21:06:00 - [8] I do think that people over do the SP means nothing element. I'm getting the feeling that the first 8-9 months are the most painful when comparing yourself to older players as you should have enough to be able to compete in a couple of areas that you've specialised. In the mean time you'll not manage to get over the new car smell as there is so much to explore in the game. Just make sure you find a decent corp and enjoy yourself. Also don't get stuck solo grinding missions are that'll just burn you out.
RavenPaine	Posted - 2009.07.22 04:14:00 - [9] If it makes ya feel any better . I'm one of those 35 mil SP players. And I still look in my character sheet and think "wish I had this...wish I had that" .And yes I can still be killed by a guy 1 third my game-age . Try and remember , the guy with all those skill points , has put in his time , Even if ya dont like him , ya gotta respect that he earned his way there. The same Ideals apply to you , and imo , its a good system.
Miraqu Caldari Marquie-X Corp Atropos.	Posted - 2009.07.22 08:39:00 - [10] The key element is specialisation. When you hit about 8 mil, you'll be able to fly one or two closely related classes as well as a pilot with vastly more SP. The difference is more often that the older player has several billions in his wallet and will therefore be able to field expensive implants, boosters faction mods and so on. SP do not help you above a certain level but its really nice to be able to jump your ships around in your carrier or bulk stuff in your jump freighter.
Josorna	Posted - 2009.07.22 10:32:00 - [11] Edited by: Josorna on 22/07/2009 10:35:35 Edited by: Josorna on 22/07/2009 10:33:14 Edited by: Josorna on 22/07/2009 10:32:56 Just look at this, http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1025677 It's a video about two players who made new characters, and started PvPing at 140k skillpoints, yet they were successful. So, as others have said before, it's more about experience, less about skillpoints.
arjun Viziam	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:49:00 - [12] specialise is the magic word. for instance i am 6 years in the game and have a couple of specialities. for instance armor, lasers and ecm. its possible to get to the same level as i in any of those fields within 1 or 2 years. the advantage i have is that i can choose from a wider variety of roles, ships and equipment.
Zhilia Mann	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:55:00 - [13] Edited by: Zhilia Mann on 22/07/2009 18:56:04 Common story, really. I'm sitting at 44 mil SP and have really only specialized in Drones (ok, and Science, but that's not as relevant to the discussion). But I hate the looks of pretty much all dedicated drone ships so rarely use my (not joking) 9.7 mil in Drones anyhow. Plus I'm one of those streaky players who due to any number of circumstances sometimes takes long absences from the game. Hasn't hurt my SP accumulation (or at least not nearly as much as having a base perception of 4) but it does mean that I rarely have even a single billion in liquid assets. Can I do some things that a new player can't? Sure. Can a new player beat the **** out of me if he/she knows what to do? Oh goodness yes. To make a point that hasn't yet come up in this particular thread but often appears in others, this is part of the logic of capping skills at 5. Even if the progression continued to be -- umm. It's logarithmic, right? -- old players might be able to sustain a marginal advantage by specializing like crazy. But since that's not the case -- your skill at 5 is the same as someone with one hundred times the total SP -- new players are not put at a sustainable disadvantage. It's actually all rather elegant when you think about it that way. Edit: Or rather that last point did come up, but I expounded a bit. I suppose.
Yarinor	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:57:00 - [14] Also remember, for every day you play, there will be more and more people in the game with less sp than you, the player base has been raising since the game was introduced, and those who start after you will be as likely to catch up to you as you are to catch up to them who started before you.
Lt Forge Pilots From Honour Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.07.23 00:39:00 - [15] New and old players; pros and cons. [New players] Pros: -With many. -Unpredictable. Cons: -Not much experience. -Lack of funds. -Lack of skills. -Unpredictable. [Old players] Pros: -Lots of funds. -Lots of skills. -Lots of experience. Cons: -Outnumbered by the New's. -Often trolls and/or will get killed in a real life motoraccident. -Got Falcons. _____________
Hamatitio Caldari Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.07.24 02:24:00 - [16] with 80+ million skillpoints, you only ever use MAYBE 10 million sps at a time. the only thing that means is, you get to keep up with the FOTM a bit better than other people... I'll tell you what tho, if you go t hat extra mile and train X tech 2 gun spec from 4 - 5, you'll be more specialized than myself...
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.24 09:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Blackfyre 001 Am I, and every other new player, doomed to always be worse at everything than them or is it possible to catch up? basicly yes when i started there were players with 20-30mill sp more then me as well that i knew i would never catch up to, but guess what, i wasnt botherd then and im not botherd now either. the simple fact is that some ppl have put in 5-6 years and its impossible to catch up to them, just as it should be. anything else would be unfair to the ppl that have put in the time and effort into this game
Drykor Minmatar Reform-Revolt	Posted - 2009.07.25 13:19:00 - [18] People REALLY exaggerate the SP insignificance. 10M SP, even completely specced, is not enough to fly even a T1 frigate with maxed skills in everything, let alone a T2 cruiser or battleship. The amount of SP you can put into a fairly big ship with multiple weapon systems, while having perfect ship, navigation, (raw) shield, (raw) armor, electronics, cap saving and various weapon support skills will be closer to 30M sp than 10M. Let's add some leadership in there (will help for everyone except solo'ing) and count the rigging, learning skills and occasional isk support skills and there you go. That being said, the more sp you have, the slower progression goes. You'll be able to compete after a while, raw SP won't help someone win a fight just on its own and player skills are very important. But when all other things are the same, you're not gonna beat a 50M sp char with your 10M sp char, even if you're highly specced. There's an advantage to being an older player, as there should be.
Tara Cloudrider	Posted - 2009.08.07 17:22:00 - [19] You shouldn't worry too much about not being able to compete, I'm a 8,5mil SP char so I'm still relatively unskilled, yet I am able to fly quite a few ships without feeling left behind because of my lack of skills. Sure I can't fly or pay that T2 command ship, but when it comes to assault frigs, stealth bombers, interceptors and soon electronic attack ships then I'm able to fly them at a competitive level when compared to a higher SP character.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.07 18:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Suihon Denila Not true. There are only 5 levels for each skill: when you max a certain "tree", let it be a ship, or a module or whatever, nobody can be better than you in that field (not counting "real" pilot skills of course). ^^ This. EVE has some 270 skills (iirc) that can be taken to lvl V. Getting to lvl V in any one skill isn't that hard (ok, maybe the rank 16 skills will require some patience, but still, it's "only" 4mil SP to max one out). Once you get there, you are at the top of the heap in that skill. In addition, there's the problem of diminishing returns: for less than 1/5th the (time) investment, you get 4/5th of the capability — sometime more due to how some inherited bonuses work. So it's occasionally debatable if you even want to go that last bit, when you could instead spend the time to learn a four complementary skills to the same level and (quite often) get something along the lines of 7/5th of the capability instead. And while there are pre-requisites (both in terms of hard requirements, and soft you-really-need-to-have-this-to-be-effective complementary skills) and tiers to what you can have, the tiers are still very shallow. For instance, consider the progression in what ships you can use (cf this graph), even the biggest and baddest of all ships are only four tiers in… and (this is the important part) they are highly vulnerable to ships much further down the list. Furthermore, you'll quickly find that many of these high-tier, high-rank skills are not actually that useful for you — they are there to help your corp or alliance, and if you don't intend to go down that road, you never have to deal with them. What all of this means is that SP in EVE isn't like XP in other games. There, more XP = more depth; here, more SP = more breadth. SP gives you options and unpredictability, not untouchable power like in most level-based systems (and then backhands you with the quirk that while training for all those options, you've come to love a handful of them that you always use, making you rather predictable ). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Nanobot The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2009.08.07 18:52:00 - [21] Edited by: Nanobot on 07/08/2009 18:52:48 3x 5Mil SP can kick 1x 60mil SP Pilot, Friends are more important. Edit: And Alts Shoot 1st, shoot some more, keep shooting, some more shot, and if anyones alive after ask a few questions. Just a soldier following orders.
Rognin Minmatar The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.08 19:19:00 - [22] On this subject. Fits and fiddling with ships can sometimes teach you a lot. EFT and EVEMON are your freind (they also make you dream a lot). I'm coming up to 20 mil sp, pure pvp. Just last night a pure PVP '06 toon was in 0.0 with me, we both had Canes. I had setup a sheild buffer with gyro's and TE's in the lows and 425's. He undocked 4 times, and lost 4 times with 4 diffrent fits. His SP was in the 50's... and he still lost. Be creative, plan out, and stick to it. It's not because you have lower SP that you can't beat anyone.
Jim Nakamura	Posted - 2009.08.08 19:57:00 - [23] Also, you need to bear in mind that the skill training times increase exponentially. Getting a skill from 1 to 4 might only take a week or so, but getting the last level will take another month, and all for just another incremental increase. A new player could get a bunch of core skills up to 4 in a relatively short space of time and be almost as effective as someone with 10x as much SP - even more so if you focu your training towards one area.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.08.08 21:05:00 - [24] If you make a plan and focus you can be competitive in PVP by 5 million SP. Or if you make a plan for trading or manufacture you can be competitive in that arena. If you like combat I would pick a race and train up to use the BCs in a hurry. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Alty McAltyalt	Posted - 2009.08.09 03:18:00 - [25] Ship diversity is the only major advantage that older players receive from SP. This is important, because if you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail when sometimes it's much much better to use a screwdriver. Older players also have more knowledge about how fights typically play out, don't get adrenaline from everyday combat scenarios, and are aware of the mistakes people are likely to make and are better able to exploit them. The older player advantage has infinitely more to do with the above points than having skills at 5 rather than at 4.
Lusian	Posted - 2009.08.09 03:37:00 - [26] I often wonderd how pilos confuse skills with the degree that a pilots i srated for pvp. Its not just about pvp but thats waht eve was made for. I just know taht skills only make you more efficient at killing other pilots. The only purpose for them. I am wondering if CCP will ever adopt a ratio board that allows the game to classify you in how good you are to the ratio of kills and the way gangs are lead and wht happens in them. your only as good as the ability to defend and kill as fare as pvp goes. You learn by looseing. Then you become good by experience from that.
Kessiaan Minmatar DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.09 03:41:00 - [27] The amount of skillpoints you need to be caught up to the multiyear vets is how many you have when you realize you're asking the wrong question. You need support skills. Things like Engineering, Electronics, Weapon Upgrades, Gunnery, etc. These take about six months. After that, you're training for specific ships, specific modules, and specific roles. The only advantage a lot of skillpoints gives you is being able to fly a lot of different ships, but since you can only fly one ship at a time, less and less SPs (percentage wise) are actually in use at any given time. Also diminishing returns kicks in in a big way after a while. Like, suppose I decide I want to do 3% more damage with my turrets so I train Surgical Strike from IV to V. This takes me a little over two weeks. In the time I spent training one skill to V you can train almost all the gunnery support skills to IV and be almost as good. You get the idea.
MN Norse	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Suihon Denila ...(cf this graph)... This really helps, I thought destroyers and BC were only stepping stones to BS, but apparently not. I might just have to train BC to level 5 now.
Waci Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Iria Ahrens EVE is about balls, brains, and paranoia. SP comes in a distant fourth place. Quote since I don't want to present that as my own. ------------------------------------------------- SCE
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.08.12 03:03:00 - [30] Originally by: MN Norse Originally by: Suihon Denila ...(cf this graph)... This really helps, I thought destroyers and BC were only stepping stones to BS, but apparently not. I might just have to train BC to level 5 now. hell yeah, command ships ftw.

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