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Anti-Frig Blob Tactics

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Commander Yassir Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:19:00 - [1] Somewhat inspired by another "Kill E-Uni Thread" I was trying to think of a way to beat their massive blobs of frigates without sustaining heavy losses on your own. I was thinking possible using sniping destroyers. They would be relatively cheap, but fast enough to move around and avoid the blobs while using their bonuses to inflict heavy casualties. Would this work on frig blobs? Or if not what would your tactic of choice be? P.S. This is from a curiosity standpoint, no I don't plan on running off to dec the Uni. ~ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:28:00 - [2] Destroyers, meh. Sniper HACs with a covert providing warpins. Or a RR BS gang. Or... Honestly, anyone who gets stomped by EVE Uni are terrible. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:29:00 - [3] The problem with destroyers is that it would be hard to tackle them. Regardless, it would work. Drone boats would also work.
Commander Yassir Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Commander Yassir on 21/07/2009 22:31:48 Originally by: Intigo Destroyers, meh. Sniper HACs with a covert providing warpins. Or a RR BS gang. Or... Honestly, anyone who gets stomped by EVE Uni are terrible. The fact that most have says what about the people that dec E-Uni? Edit:The issue with HACs and BSs is that if they kill just one of you thats roughly one hundred of them. With destroyers you can move quickly, take advantage of their alpha bonuses to not even have to tackle the frigs, use coverts to provide warp in and still lose a few and not really be set back. ~ The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Intigo Amarr Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Intigo on 21/07/2009 22:32:41 Originally by: Commander Yassir Originally by: Intigo Destroyers, meh. Sniper HACs with a covert providing warpins. Or a RR BS gang. Or... Honestly, anyone who gets stomped by EVE Uni are terrible. The fact that most have says what about the people that dec E-Uni? As I just said - says they're terrible. Also, for the post above, you don't need tacklers for massive blobs of T1 cruisers / frigs. Just alpha them down and let them warp if they want, not like they're gonna drop anything worth looting. Edit: Misread. ___________________ ENEMA, much love. <3
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.21 23:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Intigo Destroyers, meh. Sniper HACs with a covert providing warpins. Or a RR BS gang. Or... Honestly, anyone who gets stomped by EVE Uni are terrible. I've got no experience of eve uni so the following is based on my experience of wolfpacks of 15 or so assorted T1 and T2 frigs. Sniper hac's are exactly what i want to be fighting against in a wolfpack, they're generally poorly tanked and have terrible tracking, if the wolfpack's moving so slowly that a cov-ops has time to get a warp in then it's fail on the part of the pack's FC. RR BS gang doesn't have much to fear from a wolfpack but on the other hand the frigs don't have much to fear from BS's. Simply move on and find a better target. A gang of nano vexors / arbitrators / caracals would be cheap and could wreak some nasty havoc with a frig blob however the more expensive option of a logistics supported recon gang would be considerably more deadly because of the better tackle and ewar. The problem with such obvious frig killing setups though is that you will scare the frigs away so it only works in defense, even if you've got tackle ships to hold them in place no wolfpack FC in their right mind is going to engage you. To get a fight i'd use T1 cruisers that are rarely used as anti frigate platforms like the thorax, omen etc and fit them with big tanks and little guns while keeping a second squad consisting of tackle frigates hidden in the next system. The wolfpack FC would see a small cruiser group that's apparently set up for fighting cruisers and up but would get a nasty surprise shortly after engaging. _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human
Kessiaan Minmatar MicroFunks	Posted - 2009.07.21 23:30:00 - [7] If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up?
Yakumo Smith Gallente No End To Infinity Fleetingly Finite	Posted - 2009.07.21 23:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? Yup it would. As such, the FC of a frig gang would make sure people would stay outside of Smart Bomb range. Eve Uni would pretty much expect someone to try that everytime they fleet up with frigs and will no doubt have a counter in place. I suppose this must be my sig. I'll do something cool with it eventually.
Mutnin Mutineers	Posted - 2009.07.22 00:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Kahega Amielden The problem with destroyers is that it would be hard to tackle them. Regardless, it would work. Drone boats would also work. Drone boats would be very bad if the frig pilots had half a clue. Frigs can tears drones apart, then you are left with no weapons.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.07.22 00:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? Smartbombers are pretty trivial to avoid as long as you're paying attention. CEO, Agony Unleashed
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.07.22 02:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Christina Bamar Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? Smartbombers are pretty trivial to avoid as long as you're paying attention. There is no problem that can't be solved by adding more smartbombs! ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
The AEther Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.07.22 02:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest Originally by: Christina Bamar Smartbombers are pretty trivial to avoid as long as you're paying attention. There is no problem that can't be solved by adding more smartbombs! lol yes! do it! i wanna see the after-fraps Link to PVP University
fmercury Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.07.22 03:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? "He's smartbombing" "Ok, stay outside of 6km" smartbomb BS dies
Damar Rocarion	Posted - 2009.07.22 04:50:00 - [14] AML Caracals work well and on budget. T2 fitted cara also tends to cost around the same common TD rifter flying around in low-sec these days. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
William Escobar Gallente Trichomes Unlimited	Posted - 2009.07.22 05:02:00 - [15] Buffer Vexors, and lots of them. I've eaten plenty of small frig gangs (3-7 ships) solo in this ship, and I assume it would work on a larger scale. Some gangs will of course pop your drones, but with that drone bay it usually doesn't matter.
Veshta Yoshida Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.22 06:21:00 - [16] Stay in periphery and let their gung-ho pack mentality get the better of them and charge in one by one I like my Coercer against the light Wolf Packs. There is always 4-5 of them that ignore FC and charge, or maybe they are sent to tackle. My speed necessitates a MWD Rifter to catch and damage is enough to drop a 400 plate Rifter in 3 volleys. Another good and at times nervewracking way is to use an AB Interceptor. Signature is low enough to avoid 90% of artillery fire and speed again required a MWD to catch. For less suicidal means you have to go cruiser size. Assault Caracal, Vexor, Rupture are all good against smalls.
BigBobbom	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:37:00 - [17] best counter would be an anti-frig cruiser blob of equal size. 40+ frigs all with some ewar (damps, turret disruptors) will **** up your remote rep BS gang and you'll never catch or kill anything.
Vasim Vio Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Vasim Vio on 22/07/2009 07:46:47 I'd recommend you check our killboard first. We rarely fly only frigates actually. Any destroyer in range of heavy missiles will be destroyed pretty fast. If they'll stay outside of that range - read stuff below. Sniping HAC or BS can score some kills against frigates blob but has very big chances to die if there will be scanning ship in fleet. Snipers without protective nullsec bubbles are easy to scan and ambush them at their sniping spots.
Hamatitio Caldari Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:47:00 - [19] Titan? Hijack this
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.07.22 07:57:00 - [20] Originally by: fmercury Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? "He's smartbombing" "Ok, stay outside of 6km" smartbomb BS dies Quote: There is no problem that can't be solved by adding more smartbombs! ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
Fat Uncle	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? Pretty dangerous in highsec warfare (which is where I usually see UNI gangs, are they doing FW/lowsec also?). It would be hilarious to suicide an unallied T1 frig into a smartbombing BS.
Bestofworst Worstofbest Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.07.22 09:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Fat Uncle Originally by: Kessiaan If you're facing a pure frig gang, wouldn't a smartbomb BS or three just completely mess them up? Pretty dangerous in highsec warfare (which is where I usually see UNI gangs, are they doing FW/lowsec also?). It would be hilarious to suicide an unallied T1 frig into a smartbombing BS. Of all the things, this would be a real low thing for any corp to do as a valid tactic. But I won't discredit some random passerby doing it for lols. ________________________________________________ Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide!
Gathoni	Posted - 2009.07.22 11:09:00 - [23] I figure another frigate blob, split into ten small teams of four pilots, pure DPS. Here is the logic, assuming 40 frigates in each fleet. Their fleet is designed to focus a lot of small guns and EW on a handful or less of targets. They have one FC, who can call primary and secondary. You swamp that FC with too many targets and you make it hard to focus the power of the fleet. His targets will evaporate, but directing the power will be a problem. People will be searching your fleet for the named target and not firing all the time. If the EW pilots find the primary, it wonÆt change anything, as the ship is about to vaporize as the DPS pilots find it. EW is neutralized. The best the enemy FC can do is tell his pilots to pick their own targets, but that turns his fleet into a blob. The tracks and damps will not be concentrated enough to shut down ships, the ECM will only reduce a small % of your fleet damage and the painters donÆt help frigates much. Their DPS will be spread around, losing the advantage of focus. Your fleet knows that four frigates under one FC will be able to hit multiple primaries right away and rapidly kill them. However, the targets will not evaporate like the other fleets, so the pilots have time to find and lock the secondary. Also, your pilots have overview sorted by frigate type and has been assigned a target. The small fleet is able to quickly pick out the primary Merlin out of a few Merlins, rather than 40 ships. 15 seconds into the fight, the first fleet has melted a primary and secondary and is now struggling to lock the tertiary. The second fleet has only killed the primary, but they killed 10 primaries and they are locked and firing on the secondary, which is actually ships 11-20 of the enemy fleet. If you kill the secondaries, half their fleet is gone and they might be on your fourth ship. Less non-firing time, a faster reduction of the enemy DPS, a strong multiple focus attack. All virtues. Essentially, use decentralization to beat their centralization. Of course, you will take losses, but you will win. Either that or have a three or four SB BS in system. The rest of your fleet is spider repped, high EHP BS with small guns and drones. Spread the spider repped BS out in a square, about 4 km apart and engage the frigates When the frigates orbit outside of SB range, they have to swing into SB range of the other ships. Then have each SB BS warp to different spider BS. You will have a spread of SB coverage in a nice square with the range of the SB overlapping in spots. Further, you have ensured some of the frigates are in range and some will be in range of multiple ships. Kill them off, and then keep moving the ships around. Force the frigates to fly, rather than orbit. It will reduce their DPS due to range and some of them will screw up and come into SB range. Let the small drones loose, as they good with frigates and the small guns will have decent tracking to deal with frigates. Sure, you will have the same range issue they have and you will kill some of your own drones, but you have a tank and drone hold and can wait. Your reppers can support any single BS in trouble and the now heavily damaged frigate fleet will have a hard time shutting you down. Also, the SB will have likely damaged some frigates, so your small guns will quickly take them down. Of these two options, the later is safer and less likely to lose a ship. However, the enemy can run away pretty easily and if you donÆt catch too many on the original smart bomb attack, they may not take too much damage. That said, if the SB works, the fleet will melt! The blob vs. blob option ensures some losses on your side and needs more pilots, but will be faster. If the enemy FC waits very long, he will lose a huge part of his fleet. Further, when he runs, you can chase him. Perhaps to a gate where you have a SB BS set upà
yani dumyat Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:37:00 - [24] There's some interesting thinking in this thread however.... Originally by: Gathoni I figure another frigate blob, split into ten small teams of four pilots, pure DPS. Here is the logic, assuming 40 frigates in each fleet. .... Essentially, use decentralization to beat their centralization. Of course, you will take losses, but you will win. Absolutely agree that a good command structure will win fights however it does make the assumption that the the enemy FC is an idiot who will fly as a blob and simply call primaries. The same is true for any fleet irrespective of ship class. Having a large fleet all in one voice channel is almost the definition of a blob whereas having a command channel with dedicated FC's for each squad is one of the first things you learn about decent FCing (EG caps channel, BS channel and support channels). Originally by: Gathoni Either that or have a three or four SB BS in system. The rest of your fleet is spider repped, high EHP BS with small guns and drones. I don't know why people keep going on about about BS's and smart bombs, a group of 40 AF's doing 200 DPS each have a theoretical DPS of 8,000 but if you try to apply that against a single BS you'll be lucky to get half that, then if you consider that your average frigate blob isn't made up of wolves and ishkurs you start to realize that it would take forever to break even one RR BS's. If the frigs have no way to win they simply won't engage you so the only useful thing a BS group can do is deny entry to a stargate, though a single BS could act as bait. You need a method of forcing an engagement on unequal terms such as baiting or herding followed by a trap you can spring to bubble / web / destroy the enemy by using cruisers / dessies / dictors or some other devious plan. _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:18:00 - [25] AML Caracals will help... but if they are going gung ho, you better have something sitting with them loaded up with Projected ECCM so they aren't all Raspberried
Seishomaru	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:56:00 - [26] Edited by: Seishomaru on 22/07/2009 14:59:25 Originally by: Mutnin Originally by: Kahega Amielden The problem with destroyers is that it would be hard to tackle them. Regardless, it would work. Drone boats would also work. Drone boats would be very bad if the frig pilots had half a clue. Frigs can tears drones apart, then you are left with no weapons. dominix with drone enhancements for drone speed (2) and control range(3).... and 75 light drones. Add a pair of sensor boosters an MWD. Fit good recharge in lows and enough agility to warp off before they get too close. You can annoy a LOT a gang of frigates with this ship if you have a lot of warpins ready. Specially since is possible a lot of them whill ignore you for while when you start at 110 km from them.... Also if you eventually loose the ship. Well was very cheap in the end since you need nothing t2 even to work.
Bunzan Cardinal The Artists	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:25:00 - [27] Vexors, myrms, and domis (oh my) would be my choice. Loa them all up with warriors and hobs and let em rip. Although i wouldnt suggest it unless the pilots have drone interfacing 5, that way you can take out as many frigs as you can while they take out your drones. Also if you can engage them at range, fit rails..... also a few sniping dessies wouldnt hurt.
Ladett	Posted - 2009.07.23 17:35:00 - [28] Extremely simple, Missiles, And yes Caldari rules. Aginst a gang of about 40 frigs, If you have mixture of drakes and nighthawks with assault missiles with fof and a large bubble. ur kill a good half of the fleet before they leave the system. Smartbombs, not enough range. sniper fleet, they'l run before u can lock them. Fight fire with fire.( Thats an FC's nightmare, With frigate also you'd have mass loss's on both sides). FOF For the wind.
baraka shogat	Posted - 2009.07.23 20:45:00 - [29] If you want to try doing it cheaply this may work: Have your gang flying Caracals fitted with assault launchers, the caracal has a bonus to missile velocity hence it can fire from long range. I haven't run the numbers but it should one volley most frigs. Make sure your gang is spread out at range and aligned to a gang member in a safe spot so they don't get pointed. Have gang members sort overview by distance to see which are burning for them, and have them pick their own targets and warp out when something gets too close.
Silentbrick Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.07.25 23:20:00 - [30] While I'm certainly not going to give advice to anyone on how to fight the Uni, I will admit that I'm watching this thread with interest. Some of the assumptions of how and where we operate are fairly amusing as well. I strongly suggest any and all Uni members simply read and refrain from posting. This isn't to be mean, but I don't see any reason to provide potential enemies with information they don't have to work for. To the OP, I do suggest you take the time and isk to try some of Agony's PVP classes. I think they will give you a better understanding of the way frig packs can operate, so that if you wish to develop a counter, you'll have experience to work from. They are quite cheap really, and from what I've heard, VERY fun. Best of luck to you.

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