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Fixing the .01 isk war problem

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Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.27 16:15:00 - [91] Edited by: Dex Timor on 27/07/2009 16:31:29 Edited by: Dex Timor on 27/07/2009 16:30:33 Originally by: Whitehound ... If the market turns people into morons then it does need a change. A game needs to support intelligence and not stupidity. The market doesn't turn people into morons. The market reflects people's attitudes toward ISK and competition. And while Komi is a bit harsh on you, you do need to read a bit about market theory. The .01 ISK race exists because people are impatient and want to have either their goods or their ISK "now !!!". Profit margins next to worthless exist whenever there are to many offers for the existing demand. 1) If you are in a .01 ISK race you may realise that for your product, the current market place is not worth your time and stop selling your product, selling it at another place or just cutting prices even harsher and live with low margins. 2) If you feel that the margins are to low compared to average past pricing, then check what the trade volumes are. Are they regular or cyclic ? Are they indicating that current bids will sell out in 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 ... days ? Are you patient enough to wait until this happens and your order sells at a better price ? Can you manipulate the market in your favour ? Should you move to a market more favourable to your products ? Should you switch products ? Do yourself a favour, don't bother with .01 ISK race competitors. You wouldn't try to sell every meta 0 item for profit either. I heard low-sec markets can be profitable on some goods. I heard the barriers to enter low-sec market keeps competition relatively low. But if people prefer almost no barriers on their market, let them deal with more competition. As I said in my last post, I never read Adam Smith but I had market theory in school and I read some other book(s). (Indeed, I read the Lord of the Rings) edit: I'd like to illustrate my case. I lived in Gulfonodi, Molden Heath for some time. When it was time to train the skill "Torpedoes" I could only find it on sale in low-sec for (20 millions ?). So I took my shuttle, went to low-sec bought 21 skill-books, set one to train and brought 20 back to Gulfonodi. That system is a mission hub, so I set my 20 skillbooks on sale for 21 millions each and they sold within a month and paid for the one I had bought for myself. Now the thing is: 6 jumps from Gulfonodi is Rens in Heimatar (Minmatar market hub). I didn't know that I could have bought my skillbook for zero risk at the same price over there. But apparently the people that bought my market orders either ignored the same fact or just didn't want to fly 6 jumps to save 1 million ISK. What can't be denied though is the fact that I had no competitiom within 6 high-sec jumps or 3 low-sec jumps. Had I tried the same in Jita, I think I would have had much more competition and much lower prices.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.27 17:36:00 - [92] Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 17:38:49 Originally by: Dex Timor ... The market mechanics are pathetic, and perhaps even addictive. You know it, Komi knows it, you just have not realized it yet. If people start getting personal then they have run out of arguments. It starts showing a compulsive behaviour. At this point nothing more can be said, which some will not fight with whatever comes to their mind. It has parallels to gambling addiction. There is nothing constructive in this discussion any longer. --
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:13:00 - [93] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 17:38:49 Originally by: Dex Timor ... The market mechanics are pathetic, and perhaps even addictive. You know it, Komi knows it, you just have not realized it yet. If people start getting personal then they have run out of arguments. It starts showing a compulsive behaviour. At this point nothing more can be said, which some will not fight with whatever comes to their mind. It has parallels to gambling addiction. There is nothing constructive in this discussion any longer. I think of my last post as very constructive. I do understand that you wish for more personalized offerings, lowering competition on pure price. I do understand that people (myself included) hope that the WIS expansion (walking in stations) will allow us to create personalized shops. Besides the options I already mentioned in my last (very constructive) post, you have other markets with more barriers and hence less competition on pure price. I'm thinking of the contract system. Since there are items that you can't sell on the market (rigged ships, bundles of related or unrelated items, faction ships), there indeed is a possibility to personalise your sale offers. Somebody with a background in economy, please tell these people that I'm not totally wrong and not totally unconstructive. Direct quote from wikipedia: Mechanisms of markets In economics, a market that runs under laissez-faire policies is a free market. It is "free" in the sense that the government makes no attempt to intervene through taxes, subsidies, minimum wages, price ceilings, etc. Market prices may be distorted by a seller or sellers with monopoly power, or a buyer with monopsony power. Such price distortions can have an adverse effect on market participant's welfare and reduce the efficiency of market outcomes. Also, the level of organization or negotiation power of buyers, markedly affects the functioning of the market. In other words, the .01 isk race is part of the free market. You won't get rid of it. If you don't like .01 isk races you have to go to either free markets with less impatient participants or go to markets with barriers that keep the impatient out.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:44:00 - [94] There is no free market here. If it was then I could trade with whomever I want. This is not possible as you know. It is always the one with the currently best order who gets to make the deal, which is why people fight so hard and with the smallest steps possible. Can you not see this at all? Where is this freedom? --
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.27 19:53:00 - [95] Direct quote from wikipedia: Mechanisms of markets In economics, a market that runs under laissez-faire policies is a free market. It is "free" in the sense that the government makes no attempt to intervene through taxes, subsidies, minimum wages, price ceilings, etc. Market prices may be distorted by a seller or sellers with monopoly power, or a buyer with monopsony power. Such price distortions can have an adverse effect on market participant's welfare and reduce the efficiency of market outcomes. Also, the level of organization or negotiation power of buyers, markedly affects the functioning of the market. You don't read my posts, do you ?
Willmahh	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:12:00 - [96] i have no problem with .01 war...it is a reward for effort. the only mechanic that i think would seriously alter .01ing would be this: The Modify option changes to a % dropdown with the minimum change being 10% (down/up to 5% with skill) keep the timers the same. The only way to alter this modify limit is to cancelt he order and pay new broker fees. but then again, why should a 5-year-old mechanic change to accomodate wowbears?
EdwardNardella Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Willmahh but then again, why should a 5-year-old mechanic change to accomodate wowbears? Because five years ago the developers did not foresee this problem.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:55:00 - [98] Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 21:03:59 Originally by: Dex Timor You don't read my posts, do you ? And where does your quote address the freedom of a buyer? Did you read and understand my post?! --
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:57:00 - [99] Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 21:00:37 Originally by: EdwardNardella Originally by: Willmahh but then again, why should a 5-year-old mechanic change to accomodate wowbears? Because five years ago the developers did not foresee this problem. And because hubs like Jita have become so crowded that even when there is no direct ISK war still many people put up orders that alone the number of people is enough to spark an ISK war. Everyone is trying to get their stuff through the eye of a needle with people pushing their "carts" in form of 0.01 ISK steps through it. --
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 21:03:59 Originally by: Dex Timor You don't read my posts, do you ? And where does your quote address the freedom of a buyer? Did you read and understand my post?! The "freedom" of the buyer is a market barrier. It exists in eve. 1) you want to buy from a specific person: use the forum, the contract system or in station trading. 2) you want to buy specific items which are not exactly the same as any other item (example would be a Raven with some specific rigs): use the forum, the contract system or in station trading. note: I use the terms market, free market, barrier in an economic sense. I also suggested possibilities to got to places where the local market offers such barriers as to improve your profitability. Was I that unclear in my posts ?
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:45:00 - [101] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 21:00:37 Originally by: EdwardNardella Originally by: Willmahh but then again, why should a 5-year-old mechanic change to accomodate wowbears? Because five years ago the developers did not foresee this problem. And because hubs like Jita have become so crowded that even when there is no direct ISK war still many people put up orders that alone the number of people is enough to spark an ISK war. Everyone is trying to get their stuff through the eye of a needle with people pushing their "carts" in form of 0.01 ISK steps through it. See, you grasped what it is about. Jita is crowded. More offers and more demand with little barriers make the market efficient in a sense that price corrections are frequent. Price has to adjust to find the equilibrium at which sales happen, even if the increments are as small as 0.01 ISK. The size of the increments is at the discretion of the users of the market. So again. Buy cheap, sell with profit. If it's not possible to do so in Jita, you have to leave that market. If the cost of leaving that market place is to high for you to pay (market exit barriers), you will have to live with low profit margins. It's your call and not the game designers. You do understand only part of how a market works and it is not your fault. It's economy, and part of economy is behavioural science. Behaviours can be outright stupid, such is life. Eve's market just reflects the way people think. The .01 isk race is done by people that are impatient and not interested in looking for other business opportunities. Do yourself a favour and use markets where you can sell at a profit without impatient competitors. You really are an intelligent and nice person. Do you have to use Jita as a market hub (example: you are a producer and therefore bound by production facilities and corp standings) ? If not, leave the place to those that accept low-profitability and stupid tactics. Good luck in your endeavours.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:47:00 - [102] Edited by: Whitehound on 27/07/2009 21:51:21 Originally by: Dex Timor The "freedom" of the buyer is a market barrier. You are trying to fool yourself when you believe that a barrier is freedom. And do not patronize me. Thank you. --
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:41:00 - [103] Edited by: Whitehound on 28/07/2009 07:41:51 After having seen how some people react in this discussion do I suggest a completely different change. Let us remove the cost for a price change and the 5-minute delay completely. People who are obsessed with checking their orders every 5 minutes can then fight each other much faster. Instead of taking away their "ammunition" do we give them more as this ends wars, too. --
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.07.28 07:50:00 - [104] raise order modification to 1h or even higher and make them train tycoon V if they wish to keep market pvp'ing with mutiple orders for the same item - trader, a profession you'd actually have to skill for probably takes a lot of stress off the server, too - putting the gist back into logistics
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.28 19:22:00 - [105] Originally by: Roemy Schneider raise order modification to 1h or even higher ... probably takes a lot of stress off the server, too Excellent proposal. I wouldn't go as far as imposing tycoon V, but yeah you need skills to prevent to many trader alts.
EdwardNardella Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.28 22:12:00 - [106] The 1 hour limit could have multiple effects, either just slowing down the market or making traders give more consideration to their price changes. I suspect the latter may happen.
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.07.28 22:32:00 - [107] Edited by: Sith LordX on 28/07/2009 22:36:21 Edited by: Sith LordX on 28/07/2009 22:34:41 The trade game is all about who has the better skills, higher standing, and more isk. One day you can undercut your competition. There is nothing wrong with trade. You just don't have the stomach to deal with it. Then don't trade. I can sit here all day changing orders and take over the whole region if I really wanted to. Load up on energy drinks and make hundreds of mills in one day. Because I have the isk to do so and the skills to do so. And because I just can! Some people get to work at home or play games in a job like me. So we can just sit in a station all day wile your not playing the game and just totally undercut you and take away your profits cus we can. Why? Cus the players control the market. They are built by people. Nothing is seeded in the game. Maybe before you start trolling about how broken you think trade is. You should understand the market isn't controlled by CCP its controlled by the players. Stupid people can get you more isk. Cus they give you a say a ship for 50% below average. = 50% profit. Trade is complicated, but if you know the trade roots, have alot of isk, and the skills. You can be a billionair. Trade is a great way to make isk. The best way in the game. Because its controlled by the players through supply and demand. CCP can't do anything about it. Only maybe put better skills in so you can under cut even more through volume. And get discounts. XD If you don't like doing the .01 game then don't trade at a trading hub theres a idea or don't trade that item at all. Trade what makes you profit. Don't fight people who have better skills then you do. Thats why advanced trade skills state that at a elite level you can undercut people. :D Sounds like its working to me. Only shows the skills are working as intended.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.28 23:20:00 - [108] Originally by: Sith LordX The trade game is all about who has the better skills, higher standing, and more isk. Or maybe, just maybe, it is about who has more accounts and alts in Jita. Whose alt are you? --
EdwardNardella Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.29 01:28:00 - [109] .01 ISK win button is not really balanced. Beat me with a margin affecting amount of ISK. I have still not read a descent explanation about how a .01 ISK price change is balanced and fair.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.29 08:39:00 - [110] Edited by: Whitehound on 29/07/2009 08:39:44 Originally by: EdwardNardella .01 ISK win button is not really balanced. Beat me with a margin affecting amount of ISK. I have still not read a descent explanation about how a .01 ISK price change is balanced and fair. Well, it is balanced and fair because everyone has theoretically the same chance. I say theoretically because everyone can develop the same obsessive behaviour, which is needed to sell items through this system. Sith LordX here has just created more threads in which he points out other flaws of this system. So he, too, has problems with it but is only too proud to admit it or whatever. What it does is to promote stupid behaviour when a market gets too crowded. It fails to handle many orders properly, when for an MMO it should. The market in Jita is being spammed just like local is. The local channel is not unfair or unbalanced either. It is only almost unusable. --
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.07.29 08:58:00 - [111] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 29/07/2009 08:39:44 Originally by: EdwardNardella .01 ISK win button is not really balanced. Beat me with a margin affecting amount of ISK. I have still not read a descent explanation about how a .01 ISK price change is balanced and fair. Well, it is balanced and fair because everyone has theoretically the same chance. I say theoretically because everyone can develop the same obsessive behaviour, which is needed to sell items through this system. Sith LordX here has just created more threads in which he points out other flaws of this system. So he, too, has problems with it but is only too proud to admit it or whatever. What it does is to promote stupid behaviour when a market gets too crowded. It fails to handle many orders properly, when for an MMO it should. The market in Jita is being spammed just like local is. The local channel is not unfair or unbalanced either. It is only almost unusable. Not once did I ever complain about the trade system itself. All I said was it should have better management options was all like sorting folders just because one big folder is daunting. And more trade perfessions such as hauling in and out contraband from lowsec into highsec for example. I never complained about the .01 wars, hell I use them all the time to win at trade.
Rawbin Hood Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:08:00 - [112] start a new hub??? this been said ◄Brutor► The Movement Because the human race can do better as a whole (despite these forums, they don't count)
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:39:00 - [113] Originally by: Rawbin Hood start a new hub??? this been said There are other hubs like Dodixie, Rems and Amarr, but it needs a major hub in EVE just like countries need a capital city. With 0.01 ISK wars is Jita however more like a zombie infested capital rather than a healthy economical centre. You cannot really trade there unless you sell it with a loss with which you pay all those who sit with multiple accounts and alts in that station, or have multiple accounts and alts yourself. --
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.07.29 10:43:00 - [114] Originally by: Whitehound Edited by: Whitehound on 28/07/2009 07:41:51 After having seen how some people react in this discussion do I suggest a completely different change. Let us remove the cost for a price change and the 5-minute delay completely. People who are obsessed with checking their orders every 5 minutes can then fight each other much faster. Instead of taking away their "ammunition" do we give them more as this ends wars, too. Great reductio ad absurdum All the arguments that have so far been proposed in favour of .01 isk undercutting would still be valid in your proposed scenario, but I'm sure most people would realize that such a market design would be idiotic at best
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.07.29 16:29:00 - [115] Originally by: EdwardNardella .01 ISK win button is not really balanced. Beat me with a margin affecting amount of ISK. I have still not read a descent explanation about how a .01 ISK price change is balanced and fair. The thing is: The market is not fair because it is a free market (free of barriers, except for the "playtime" and skill barrier). You want fairtrade ?
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.07.29 17:06:00 - [116] Hmm some interesting suggestions in this thread really imho.. I would like a combo of some of these.. 1 or 30 min hour modification limitation. This with no cost to modification. Thus making these your perma orders. Infinite orders back. Now with the modification benefit adding new orders is done with isk sink and thus is a barrier to entry. New skills. Boost broker fees and tax reduction, based still upon npc corp or faction standing. Range and time limitation. Base this on either skills or access to office space, preferably both. 3 days at skill level 1 with a +1 to this skill with access to an office. Ranges above 2 jumps would require access to office space. Nerf trader bots. The modification limitation is already something that might limit automation. Another feature would be the office thing, since renting office space will eventually need a calculation on profit vs expenditures. Since you would esssentially force John Doe into corps or one man corps, this would essentially make them a bit easier to spot.. and report them by players.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge Got Game? Peak a boo...
Danger Boi Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.31 07:51:00 - [117] I trade across three regions. I split my time between missioning and monitoring my orders. I am fairly new to the trade game, with only 100 million or so in escrow. Even though I don't sit on top of my buy and sell orders 24/7, I still manage to buy and sell. Amazing, eh? When I am missioning, I can only monitor my orders in that region ( I do not yet have alts set up in each region). So sometimes a day goes by and suddenly my orders are not moving in the regions I am not in. So someone else is getting their orders sold or filled. This is also pretty amazing, isn't it? The market isn't broken. I have no complaints.

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