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Fixing the .01 isk war problem

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wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.07.22 12:59:00 - [1] .01 isk wars are out of control in my opinion. When you undercut someone's margin by so little you're not actually lowering your margin to get more sales, you're just working around a broken game mechanic. Rewarding people for being online isn't a bad thing but when you often get undercut faster than you're allowed to update your orders then there's something that needs fixing. The only way you stop people from doing it is one of the following: Make it pointless to undercut by insignificant amounts Make it unattractive to constantly update orders For example, you could make people repay the entire broker's fee whenever they update an order, but that would probably have a very negative effect on trading. A good solution would, in my opinion be, making it pointless to update orders with insignificant amounts of isk. If you're not actually willing to pay more for an item then you shouldn't get your orders filled more easily. My suggestion would be that all orders within a certain price range of the lowest / highest order would all be in a pool from which people buy / sell. The width of that price range would have to be proportional to the margin on the item in question. So, if three traders all have buy orders within the same price range then someone who goes to sell that item in a station would randomly sell to anyone of those three traders. Only orders large enough to buy / sell all the items the player wants should be applicable, so if someone wants to buy 10 T2 cargo expanders and someone has a sell order for only 5 of them, he should be excluded, so as to favour orders of larger quantities. That was all
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.07.22 13:57:00 - [2] The daily 'market is broken' thread ... huzzah. Originally by: wallenbergaren The only way you stop people from doing it is one of the following: Make it pointless to undercut by insignificant amounts Make it unattractive to constantly update orders Or don't shop in market hubs. Crazy idea, I know. While I don't disagree with you, wallen, I don't see this changing anytime soon. Ultimately, this is market PVP at its "finest". Personally, I think the choice should exist to buy from whichever order you want. If you want to buy the item that is 1500 ISK and not 1499.99 ISK at the same station, you should be able to ... whether due to stupidity or resentment.
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.07.22 14:57:00 - [3] Edited by: wallenbergaren on 22/07/2009 14:58:44 But you can't buy from whichever order you want! If you choose one of the less attractive orders you pay the price listed in that order, but the sale always goes to the most attractive one. That is why .01 isk undercutting is so effective: if you have the best price you ALWAYS get the sale I'm not against competitive pricing in market hubs, I just think the form it currently takes is less than ideal because people don't actually compete with price when they undercut with .01 isk No I don't have to trade in market hubs, but that's no reason to not be constructive about fixing the issue =) unless people want to debate that it even is an issue, but I don't think anyone enjoys the silly .01 wars, but people have to do them.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:01:00 - [4] there is no issue. If you are trading in hubs where hundreds of other people do the same sit there and watch your orders.
Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:29:00 - [5] I want to be able to pick and choose too... just to spite the people who put up the stupid prices in the system Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.22 15:54:00 - [6] there is no reason for being able choosing particular orders.
Cebraio	Posted - 2009.07.22 16:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Sun Clausewitz I want to be able to pick and choose too... just to spite the people who put up the stupid prices in the system Do I miss something? You can choose a higher order on the detailed order list. I do that sometimes to support people who got their orders undercut. Meaning I loose some ISK, but DILLIGAF? ;) To moderators: I hit "report" instead of "quote" on Clausewitz' post earlier. Sorrey!
el caido School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:05:00 - [8] Originally by: wallenbergaren But you can't buy from whichever order you want! I know this ... I was suggesting it as a better proposal than your own. Originally by: Cebraio Do I miss something? You can choose a higher order on the detailed order list. I do that sometimes to support people who got their orders undercut. Meaning I loose some ISK, but DILLIGAF? ;) Yes, you missed something. If the orders are in the same station, your automatically buy from the cheapest seller, regardless of which order you select to buy from.
Cebraio	Posted - 2009.07.22 17:13:00 - [9] Edited by: Cebraio on 22/07/2009 17:14:40 Originally by: el caidoo Originally by: Cebraio Do I miss something? You can choose a higher order on the detailed order list. I do that sometimes to support people who got their orders undercut. Meaning I loose some ISK, but DILLIGAF? ;) Yes, you missed something. If the orders are in the same station, your automatically buy from the cheapest seller, regardless of which order you select to buy from. Okay then. I didn't notice that. I'd like to be able to get the order I chose, because it would allow people like me/us to support little higher orders.
BenjaminBarker	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Cebraio Edited by: Cebraio on 22/07/2009 17:14:40 Originally by: el caidoo Originally by: Cebraio Do I miss something? You can choose a higher order on the detailed order list. I do that sometimes to support people who got their orders undercut. Meaning I loose some ISK, but DILLIGAF? ;) Yes, you missed something. If the orders are in the same station, your automatically buy from the cheapest seller, regardless of which order you select to buy from. Okay then. I didn't notice that. I'd like to be able to get the order I chose, because it would allow people like me/us to support little higher orders. Last I checked it not only purchases from the cheaper of the orders, it pays the amount you selected. So if you select that 1500 unit instead of the 1499.99 unit, you pay 1500 to the guy who 'undercut'. I'd like to see a minimum price 'resolution' for orders: 0.01: .01 - 100 0.1: 101 - 1000 1: 1001 - 10000 10: 10001 - 100000 100: 100,001 - 1,000,000 etc... For low price items like Trit, there is no change, but for anything over 10 isk, the minimum price movement is 0.10%. Trit has a very healthy market competition with an average minimum price movement of 0.25%, so this would bring a reasonable and proven minimum markup to all the other areas of the market, and encourage healthy competition.
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:30:00 - [11] Price resolution is also a fine solution The point is that if you want to get more orders filled then you should have to lower your margin. Babysitting orders has nothing to do with economics or trading
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:40:00 - [12] There was a good thread on this issue here.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 18:56:00 - [13] Originally by: wallenbergaren A good solution would, in my opinion be, making it pointless to update orders with insignificant amounts of isk. If you're not actually willing to pay more for an item then you shouldn't get your orders filled more easily. My suggestion would be that all orders within a certain price range of the lowest / highest order would all be in a pool from which people buy / sell. The width of that price range would have to be proportional to the margin on the item in question. So, if three traders all have buy orders within the same price range then someone who goes to sell that item in a station would randomly sell to anyone of those three traders. Why I should pay more because you are too lazy to update your orders? Especially when that "insignificant" 0.01 isk is a 2-3% shift in the price of a item, like for tritanium?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:02:00 - [14] Originally by: BenjaminBarker Originally by: Cebraio Edited by: Cebraio on 22/07/2009 17:14:40 Originally by: el caidoo Originally by: Cebraio Do I miss something? You can choose a higher order on the detailed order list. I do that sometimes to support people who got their orders undercut. Meaning I loose some ISK, but DILLIGAF? ;) Yes, you missed something. If the orders are in the same station, your automatically buy from the cheapest seller, regardless of which order you select to buy from. Okay then. I didn't notice that. I'd like to be able to get the order I chose, because it would allow people like me/us to support little higher orders. Last I checked it not only purchases from the cheaper of the orders, it pays the amount you selected. So if you select that 1500 unit instead of the 1499.99 unit, you pay 1500 to the guy who 'undercut'. I'd like to see a minimum price 'resolution' for orders: 0.01: .01 - 100 0.1: 101 - 1000 1: 1001 - 10000 10: 10001 - 100000 100: 100,001 - 1,000,000 etc... For low price items like Trit, there is no change, but for anything over 10 isk, the minimum price movement is 0.10%. Trit has a very healthy market competition with an average minimum price movement of 0.25%, so this would bring a reasonable and proven minimum markup to all the other areas of the market, and encourage healthy competition. Who decide the range? Buy order? Sell order? Highest buy? Highest sell? Lowest? I can force the price of tritanium placing a sell order of one unit at 1.000.000 so that it can be changed only by 100 isk increments? I can unlock an item placing a buy order at 1 isk allowing 0.01 isk changes? You can't use the market prices, they are open to manipulation. You can't use Dev pre-set prices, it will be another kind of market manipulation.
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:13:00 - [15] Edited by: Regat Kozovv on 22/07/2009 19:15:51 Originally by: Venkul Mul Who decide the range? Buy order? Sell order? Highest buy? Highest sell? Lowest? I can force the price of tritanium placing a sell order of one unit at 1.000.000 so that it can be changed only by 100 isk increments? I can unlock an item placing a buy order at 1 isk allowing 0.01 isk changes? You could use a percentage formula based on the average buy/sell prices of the total volume of all items in the region. say, 1-2%. You can calculate the average based on say, one or two standard deviations from the mean price, so that you'll eliminate outrageous prices, like that one unit at 1 billion ISK.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Whitehound on 22/07/2009 19:23:41 I have no problem with 0.01 ISK increases because I counter them with the same method. If it does not stop then I change to 1, 5, and 10 ISK steps, and so on, only to drive the price more quickly. Sometimes I manage to drive a price beyond than for what an item is worth in another region. If I am still being challenged then I trade the item manually, thereby making a quick and small profit, and get rid of the competing order. People will raise one another no matter what price steps are allowed. Some just do not seem to target a price other than the prices of their competitors. This is a problem. It would be nice if the game mechanics would force people to use larger steps so that the prices change more rapidly, requiring people to think more of the value of an item, and to increase the time span before a price can be changed again. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
EdwardNardella Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:28:00 - [17] Why not just add a minimum increment in changes to market orders, say 1%? Or make it 6% and add a skill that reduces it by 1% per level.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.22 19:33:00 - [18] Originally by: EdwardNardella Why not just add a minimum increment in changes to market orders, say 1%? Or make it 6% and add a skill that reduces it by 1% per level. Great idea! /signed -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
Zamaranth Sesta	Posted - 2009.07.22 20:54:00 - [19] Longer wait times would only help power players more who were obsessive enough to play multiple accounts . Being outbid by .01 or 1000isk really isn't materially different in million dollar plus items. I'm not sure it really tightens the market that much...and variable bid levels based on different price amounts would just tax the servers a little more and make things slightly slower with more room for glitches. Playing a trader is like being a person in the market pits, and just like combat you need to be there to participate or you need to hope for the market to move through your price. If you want to buy something to use and arent' playing a trader you can always pay the Sell price.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.22 21:38:00 - [20] do you guys really want to calculate the 1% value of min. raise/cut value for each fcking order?? Even if you do, there would be always someone cut your price, especially on market hubs where hundreds of people trade.
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.07.22 21:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Robert Caldera do you guys really want to calculate the 1% value of min. raise/cut value for each fcking order?? Yes, yes I do. I have no problems with people cutting me or someone else on price. That's the way it's supposed to work. But being able to outbid someone by .01 ISK on a multi million item is not met by any risk-taking of the bidder, it only rewards those who sit in front of their PCs all day. Having a percentage-based increment largely fixes this issue. Unfortunately it does mean that traders will no longer be able to suck up items simply by having the market screen open and matching everyone elses orders. They'll have to determine if they can afford it or not, and will require some analysis, thinking, and forethought on their part.
EdwardNardella Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.23 04:59:00 - [22] Just a bit of clarification as some people don't seem to get it exactly what I am saying. To change your own order the change must be 1% not necessarily undercut the next guy by 1%. And if you cant calculate 1% of ANY number then you dont belong in a trade hub lol. Just move the decimal point...
Future Mutant Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.07.23 05:19:00 - [23] My proposal is a fine paid in isk for every thread created about the 1 iskers... Trading=pvp Its the way it is, either use it to your advantage or move your items to a less populated system Your stuff iz mine through actions
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.07.23 06:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Regat Kozovv Edited by: Regat Kozovv on 22/07/2009 19:15:51 Originally by: Venkul Mul Who decide the range? Buy order? Sell order? Highest buy? Highest sell? Lowest? I can force the price of tritanium placing a sell order of one unit at 1.000.000 so that it can be changed only by 100 isk increments? I can unlock an item placing a buy order at 1 isk allowing 0.01 isk changes? You could use a percentage formula based on the average buy/sell prices of the total volume of all items in the region. say, 1-2%. You can calculate the average based on say, one or two standard deviations from the mean price, so that you'll eliminate outrageous prices, like that one unit at 1 billion ISK. and it should do that calculation every time you try to change an order Oh yea, market is too fast. BTW: 1 with 6 zero following is 1 million. And still to easy to manipulate, especially for items hovering around the point where the price change increment change. Note too that it would require that every time I input a new buy/sell order I should be informed of the minimum price change I can do, especially if that value is determinate by some kind of function like you suggest and not deducible with a glance to the current market situation. So another way to slow further the forum. Still against.
Ron Wesson	Posted - 2009.07.23 07:41:00 - [25] Originally by: wallenbergaren .01 isk wars are out of control in my opinion. When you undercut someone's margin by so little you're not actually lowering your margin to get more sales, you're just working around a broken game mechanic. Rewarding people for being online isn't a bad thing but when you often get undercut faster than you're allowed to update your orders then there's something that needs fixing. The only way you stop people from doing it is one of the following: Make it pointless to undercut by insignificant amounts Make it unattractive to constantly update orders For example, you could make people repay the entire broker's fee whenever they update an order, but that would probably have a very negative effect on trading. A good solution would, in my opinion be, making it pointless to update orders with insignificant amounts of isk. If you're not actually willing to pay more for an item then you shouldn't get your orders filled more easily. My suggestion would be that all orders within a certain price range of the lowest / highest order would all be in a pool from which people buy / sell. The width of that price range would have to be proportional to the margin on the item in question. So, if three traders all have buy orders within the same price range then someone who goes to sell that item in a station would randomly sell to anyone of those three traders. Only orders large enough to buy / sell all the items the player wants should be applicable, so if someone wants to buy 10 T2 cargo expanders and someone has a sell order for only 5 of them, he should be excluded, so as to favour orders of larger quantities. That was all You are creating a pseudo-problem, without trying to understand the concept of market pvp. The EVE market as it is currently, is working well. The rules of supply/demand apply and it's highly competitive. Just because you can't get the item you want, at the price you want, doesn't mean that something needs fixin'. To change the world you need to change yourself...
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.23 08:10:00 - [26] Edited by: Whitehound on 23/07/2009 08:14:35 Originally by: Zamaranth Sesta Longer wait times would only help power players more who were obsessive enough to play multiple accounts. That is dumb argument. The only thing that helps people with multiple accounts are the multiple accounts. If they are willing to pay for their accounts and put multiple orders with multiple characters on the same item then so be it. In addition to the topic do I want to be able to sell in high volumes. This will help to loosen up the competition. -- "Smoke me a kipper. I'll be back for breakfast." - Ace Rimmer
ninjaholic Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.07.23 08:18:00 - [27] Originally by: wallenbergaren Babysitting orders has nothing to do with economics or trading Erm what? This isn't eBay man, this is if-you're-not-watching-I'm-gonna-undercut-you market PVP. CCP won't change the market, it's really, really, REALLY good. >>> SUPPORT EVE's OWN IN-GAME FIGHT RECORD TOOL! <<<
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2009.07.23 08:24:00 - [28] Originally by: ninjaholic CCP won't change the market I hope so, I wouldn't like more competition from people who dont even have time for watching their crap, there is enough in hubs.
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.07.23 11:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Ron Wesson You are creating a pseudo-problem, without trying to understand the concept of market pvp. The EVE market as it is currently, is working well. The rules of supply/demand apply and it's highly competitive. Just because you can't get the item you want, at the price you want, doesn't mean that something needs fixin'. To change the world you need to change yourself... I can deal with the mechanics and do just fine trading but that doesn't mean that the mechanics are great. .01 isk undercutting doesn't have anything to do with supply and demand, or any other part of economics.
Whitehound	Posted - 2009.07.23 12:28:00 - [30] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Take a look at these two buy orders. One of them is an order from a brainless, price-chasing robot. Stupidity rules the market.

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