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Passive Targeting and Ship/Cargo Scanning

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flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 14:37:00 - [1] as of right now, there are only a handful of modules you can activate on someone without recieving a security hit or calling in CONCORD to rain bullets on you. these are, but no limited to, the Passive Targeter, Ship Scanner, and Cargo Scanner modules. not sure if a shield or energy transporter will get you ganked if you activate it on a random target. now here's my problem with it: i understand the Passive Targeter and how it works. it allows a pilot to place a target lock on someone without their sensors picking up the lock. makes sense to me because a target lock is really just my sensors and targeting reading your signature and tracking your movements. a passive targeter masks the signals used by the locker and muffles them so the lockee cannot tell they are being targeted. again, this makes sense. what doesn't make sense is that somehow the passive targeter also masks various other modules as well. such as the ship/cargo scanner. why and how does the Passive Target module mask the radiation and sensor signals sent by the ship/cargo scanner? i would think that regardless of not being able to tell if someone's tracking system has your ship locked, that my ship's sensors would still be able to detect the radiation washing over the hull of my ship and infesting my cargo hold. "Captain. 3 frigates just warped in at 15km off our port side." "What are they doing?" "Nothing right now, Sir. They are holding their position in classic delta pattern." "Well, let's see what--" "Captain. I am getting readings of massive sensor sweeps in our cargo hold and along the hull exterior. Someone is scanning our ship. But our sensors do not detect a target lock." in my opinion, the Passive Targeter should only mask target locks. and if you want an undetectable scanning unit, then i think there should be a specific unit designed for that. otherwise the passive targeter is way over powered. you're giving it two abilities: un-detectable target lock (which is a HUGE advantage. imagine a BS having passive target lock on an interceptor. HUGE advantage there.) and also the ability to scan the ship undetected. i think that the passive targetig needs to be looked at. as of now, it's a bit unfair to have one unit grant two uses. if someone is sending radiation sweeps at my ship, regardless of target lock or not, my sensors should be able to pick it up. if i was surrounded by 3 ships passively locked and one fired on me, would i be able to tell? "Captain. Our shields are taking damage!" "Where from?" "None of the vessels in range have a target lock on us, sir." "Well that just blows..." Is this what would really happen? would i also not know who was firing at me? no. this is not how it happens in game. if someone fires on me, regardless of target lock or passive lock, i still know who fired on me. so why don't i know when my indy is gunning for the gate that MrPassiveScanner is sending awful radiation into my cargo hold? writing this out has brought up a lot of ideas to change this and make it better in game. but i'm not gonna go into detail about it right now. i wanted to write this to get a response from the community on it first... there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 14:37:00 - [2] as of right now, there are only a handful of modules you can activate on someone without recieving a security hit or calling in CONCORD to rain bullets on you. these are, but no limited to, the Passive Targeter, Ship Scanner, and Cargo Scanner modules. not sure if a shield or energy transporter will get you ganked if you activate it on a random target. now here's my problem with it: i understand the Passive Targeter and how it works. it allows a pilot to place a target lock on someone without their sensors picking up the lock. makes sense to me because a target lock is really just my sensors and targeting reading your signature and tracking your movements. a passive targeter masks the signals used by the locker and muffles them so the lockee cannot tell they are being targeted. again, this makes sense. what doesn't make sense is that somehow the passive targeter also masks various other modules as well. such as the ship/cargo scanner. why and how does the Passive Target module mask the radiation and sensor signals sent by the ship/cargo scanner? i would think that regardless of not being able to tell if someone's tracking system has your ship locked, that my ship's sensors would still be able to detect the radiation washing over the hull of my ship and infesting my cargo hold. "Captain. 3 frigates just warped in at 15km off our port side." "What are they doing?" "Nothing right now, Sir. They are holding their position in classic delta pattern." "Well, let's see what--" "Captain. I am getting readings of massive sensor sweeps in our cargo hold and along the hull exterior. Someone is scanning our ship. But our sensors do not detect a target lock." in my opinion, the Passive Targeter should only mask target locks. and if you want an undetectable scanning unit, then i think there should be a specific unit designed for that. otherwise the passive targeter is way over powered. you're giving it two abilities: un-detectable target lock (which is a HUGE advantage. imagine a BS having passive target lock on an interceptor. HUGE advantage there.) and also the ability to scan the ship undetected. i think that the passive targetig needs to be looked at. as of now, it's a bit unfair to have one unit grant two uses. if someone is sending radiation sweeps at my ship, regardless of target lock or not, my sensors should be able to pick it up. if i was surrounded by 3 ships passively locked and one fired on me, would i be able to tell? "Captain. Our shields are taking damage!" "Where from?" "None of the vessels in range have a target lock on us, sir." "Well that just blows..." Is this what would really happen? would i also not know who was firing at me? no. this is not how it happens in game. if someone fires on me, regardless of target lock or passive lock, i still know who fired on me. so why don't i know when my indy is gunning for the gate that MrPassiveScanner is sending awful radiation into my cargo hold? writing this out has brought up a lot of ideas to change this and make it better in game. but i'm not gonna go into detail about it right now. i wanted to write this to get a response from the community on it first... there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Burga Galti	Posted - 2004.10.01 14:46:00 - [3] Been a long time since I used one of these, but IIRC the sound which the scanner makes as it is activated can be heard by other ships. Tales from the EVE Cluster
Burga Galti	Posted - 2004.10.01 14:46:00 - [4] Been a long time since I used one of these, but IIRC the sound which the scanner makes as it is activated can be heard by other ships. Tales from the EVE Cluster
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:14:00 - [5] i don't see that as a viable option to detect passive scanners. i want my ships sensors to respond to it... there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:14:00 - [6] i don't see that as a viable option to detect passive scanners. i want my ships sensors to respond to it... there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:42:00 - [7] Passive scanner doesn't emit any signals, it collects signals from your ship. Therefore you cannot detect it, since it doesn't "do" anything. Other modules using data which is being acquired by passive scanner, doesn't need to send anything also. Therefore you cannot detect them also. Active systems like a missile/lasers/ect. being fired can be noticed, by your ships scanners, and you should know who shot that. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:42:00 - [8] Passive scanner doesn't emit any signals, it collects signals from your ship. Therefore you cannot detect it, since it doesn't "do" anything. Other modules using data which is being acquired by passive scanner, doesn't need to send anything also. Therefore you cannot detect them also. Active systems like a missile/lasers/ect. being fired can be noticed, by your ships scanners, and you should know who shot that. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
John Bishop	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:49:00 - [9] as far as i know if i cargo scan or ship scan you with or without a passive target lock it isnt considered an act of aggression, it is no more illegial to scan your cargo or ships systems as it is to look into someones car through their windows. although i dont like being scannd it is part of the game. if you dont want people to know whats in your cargo hold then use secure cantainers that way all they se is those cans _______________________________________________ sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
John Bishop	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:49:00 - [10] as far as i know if i cargo scan or ship scan you with or without a passive target lock it isnt considered an act of aggression, it is no more illegial to scan your cargo or ships systems as it is to look into someones car through their windows. although i dont like being scannd it is part of the game. if you dont want people to know whats in your cargo hold then use secure cantainers that way all they se is those cans _______________________________________________ sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
John Bishop	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:50:00 - [11] Edited by: John Bishop on 01/10/2004 15:52:04 EDIT- sorry double post _______________________________________________ sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
John Bishop	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:50:00 - [12] Edited by: John Bishop on 01/10/2004 15:52:04 EDIT- sorry double post _______________________________________________ sorry for the spelling and gramtic errors,,, im a redneck cowboy what did you expect anyways????
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:59:00 - [13] Originally by: Steven Dynahir Passive scanner doesn't emit any signals, it collects signals from your ship. Therefore you cannot detect it, since it doesn't "do" anything. what? okay. so a passive targeter only collects signals from another ship. then how does a normal target work in the aspect of others knowing they are targeted? Originally by: Steven Dynahir Other modules using data which is being acquired by passive scanner, doesn't need to send anything also. Therefore you cannot detect them also. no no no. a ship/cargo scanner sends totally different signals at a ship than a targeting system does. targeting allows me to track and trace something in space. scanner tells me exactly what modules you have fitted or what is in your cargo hold. it's a little more specific than just targeting. there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 15:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Steven Dynahir Passive scanner doesn't emit any signals, it collects signals from your ship. Therefore you cannot detect it, since it doesn't "do" anything. what? okay. so a passive targeter only collects signals from another ship. then how does a normal target work in the aspect of others knowing they are targeted? Originally by: Steven Dynahir Other modules using data which is being acquired by passive scanner, doesn't need to send anything also. Therefore you cannot detect them also. no no no. a ship/cargo scanner sends totally different signals at a ship than a targeting system does. targeting allows me to track and trace something in space. scanner tells me exactly what modules you have fitted or what is in your cargo hold. it's a little more specific than just targeting. there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 16:04:00 - [15] Originally by: John Bishop as far as i know if i cargo scan or ship scan you with or without a passive target lock it isnt considered an act of aggression, it is no more illegial to scan your cargo or ships systems as it is to look into someones car through their windows. although i dont like being scannd it is part of the game. if you dont want people to know whats in your cargo hold then use secure cantainers that way all they se is those cans correct. those are non-aggressive acts. but that isn't really what this post is about. it is about one module, the Passive Targeter, masking something other than targeting. it masks radiation/sensor signals from two other modules. which i think is wrong. i have no problems planning for secrecy in space. i use secure cans all the time for this purpose. but, it's a make-shift work around to a make-shift system. regardless of passive targeting, a ship's sensors should be able to tell when ANY module is activated on it. very simple. "Sir. Although we are not being target locked by any of the surrounding vessels, our sensor system is reporting a huge increase in radiation in our cargo hold. The signatures match known Cargo Scanner technology. I am attempting to discover the source of the scan right now." there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 16:04:00 - [16] Originally by: John Bishop as far as i know if i cargo scan or ship scan you with or without a passive target lock it isnt considered an act of aggression, it is no more illegial to scan your cargo or ships systems as it is to look into someones car through their windows. although i dont like being scannd it is part of the game. if you dont want people to know whats in your cargo hold then use secure cantainers that way all they se is those cans correct. those are non-aggressive acts. but that isn't really what this post is about. it is about one module, the Passive Targeter, masking something other than targeting. it masks radiation/sensor signals from two other modules. which i think is wrong. i have no problems planning for secrecy in space. i use secure cans all the time for this purpose. but, it's a make-shift work around to a make-shift system. regardless of passive targeting, a ship's sensors should be able to tell when ANY module is activated on it. very simple. "Sir. Although we are not being target locked by any of the surrounding vessels, our sensor system is reporting a huge increase in radiation in our cargo hold. The signatures match known Cargo Scanner technology. I am attempting to discover the source of the scan right now." there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.10.01 18:31:00 - [17] Edited by: Xavier Arron on 01/10/2004 18:36:09 IMHO - I think its fine as it is.
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.10.01 18:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Xavier Arron on 01/10/2004 18:36:09 IMHO - I think its fine as it is.
Rhonstet	Posted - 2004.10.01 19:59:00 - [19] First of all, you _CAN_ detect the activation of a cargo/ship scanner. You just have to be really close to the ship doing the targeting to do it. This seems fair, given that you aren't mounting a module and they are. As for the difference between gunfire and sensor scans, I propose that launching a howizer shell the size of a bus at hypersonic speeds, or firing a laser rated in the terawatts, probably generates a wee bit of heat and some extremely recognizable forms of poorly-controlled radiation. There's also other signs, like when you would just look at the enemy vessel and notice that their weapons are tracking you and that the muzzles are flashing. The Monkeysphere
Rhonstet	Posted - 2004.10.01 19:59:00 - [20] First of all, you _CAN_ detect the activation of a cargo/ship scanner. You just have to be really close to the ship doing the targeting to do it. This seems fair, given that you aren't mounting a module and they are. As for the difference between gunfire and sensor scans, I propose that launching a howizer shell the size of a bus at hypersonic speeds, or firing a laser rated in the terawatts, probably generates a wee bit of heat and some extremely recognizable forms of poorly-controlled radiation. There's also other signs, like when you would just look at the enemy vessel and notice that their weapons are tracking you and that the muzzles are flashing. The Monkeysphere
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Rhonstet First of all, you _CAN_ detect the activation of a cargo/ship scanner. how so? there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
flummox	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Rhonstet First of all, you _CAN_ detect the activation of a cargo/ship scanner. how so? there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on...
Zak Kingsman	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:48:00 - [23] who said the ship/cargo scan was an active scanner? the onlything you're detecting when he's not using a passive targeter is the lock, not the scan.
Zak Kingsman	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:48:00 - [24] who said the ship/cargo scan was an active scanner? the onlything you're detecting when he's not using a passive targeter is the lock, not the scan.
Kel Matari	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:56:00 - [25] Its fine as it is.Its not like its a huge infringement on you, your ship and your cargo. Besides why would anybody go through the trouble of wasting a medslot on a passive targeter if they want to scan people?Just fix a scanner, lock someone and scan.
Kel Matari	Posted - 2004.10.01 20:56:00 - [26] Its fine as it is.Its not like its a huge infringement on you, your ship and your cargo. Besides why would anybody go through the trouble of wasting a medslot on a passive targeter if they want to scan people?Just fix a scanner, lock someone and scan.
Phios Phane	Posted - 2004.10.01 22:26:00 - [27] uhmmmmmm this is all very intresting. But does any of this really acctually matter --------------------------- The Cold War, EVE style ... [ 2004.10.17 10:04:18 ] Crystal DeAngelis > is cos teh vietkong used littel groups and didnt get any lag
Phios Phane	Posted - 2004.10.01 22:26:00 - [28] uhmmmmmm this is all very intresting. But does any of this really acctually matter --------------------------- The Cold War, EVE style ... [ 2004.10.17 10:04:18 ] Crystal DeAngelis > is cos teh vietkong used littel groups and didnt get any lag
Torvus Jay	Posted - 2004.10.01 22:35:00 - [29] changing it makes the passive targeter useless. Also your ships computer responds to locks on your ship nothing else. Obviously u detect when someone htis you with a smartbomb but your ship doesnt autotarget it back now does it? ______________ Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye.
Torvus Jay	Posted - 2004.10.01 22:35:00 - [30] changing it makes the passive targeter useless. Also your ships computer responds to locks on your ship nothing else. Obviously u detect when someone htis you with a smartbomb but your ship doesnt autotarget it back now does it? ______________ Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye.

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