Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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I like the tempest - its the best BC killer.

Maybe people don't like flying battleships that are good at killing smaller ships. *shrug*

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Ineed. I do not find tempest bad at all :D.

2 Heavy neuts, and bye bye BC

Tho I do not mind to shiled tanke it enither, but seems someone just want anohter Mega/Amarr BS made ouf ot it

Aslo, it works in remote shield RR. <3

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not an excuse. Typhoon can do the same while keepign more damage and more tank and faster.....

also other battleshisp can fit 2 neuts and have more damage then tempest.

Tempest shoudl be the battleship with more damage while fieldign only 6 guns (by a decent margin.. close to a 7 gun battleship) because it has 2 bonuses dedicated to that.

Otherwise the 2 high slots are just a makeup for its failure.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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2 damage bonus means it was made to be ganky.

Also get a megatron with 6 Neutrons.. MORE damage than tempest and 2 utility slots with better tank and better drones.

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Originally by: kessah

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I hear what you saying, but some of the people that have posted here i know have some pretty damned good experience with the ship. They and i have probably fitted it each and every way one can.

The Domi's a far better anti support ship that the Tempest, it does more dps and hits smaller ships, again the phoon does the job alot better, bigger drone bay, the lack of dps coming from the Autocannon's make it far more preferable to fit neuts there.

The Pest is not really anti support although it can do it, as someone pointed out you can do a better job with the megathron by fitting 6 guns and 2 neuts if you wanted, the pest still lacks dps.

Its range as you so clearly said was its amazing grace does about the same as Dual heavy pulse, although if something orbitting you at that range dont expect to hit it any smaller than battleship class (possible with battlecruisers)

Its a Battleship, its slow, high dmg with the general idea to overwhelm it by avoiding its tracking range or its tank. Also anti nano ships? wtf if anyones fit like that they are going to die to anything with neuts not just a pest - that comment loses all my respect for your post.

Furthermore we are ment to complain - eve isnt perfect we complain to get a balance fair and square, you screaming stop moaning is idiotic. CCP dont give in to whines they will test it, hopefully properly in ALL circumstances. In you close minded perspective its fine, there's a big majority saying otherwise.

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Originally by: Kismo

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Do you really fly around with 2x TDs fit, or are you (for all intents and purposes) EFT-Warrioring that you can fit them in the fight? You are aware that you could fit a Phoon with 1 TD by the same token?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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I think I make some valid points about why a Tempest is good. *shrug*

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I don't think you have. You tried to make a point for ACs - however you didn't really. I don't see the tempest outdoing the geddon at anything. Furthermore, I don't see the tempest outdoing the mael or phoon at anything. Projectiles need love, and the tempest individually is worse than the other two minnie BS.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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if you want ewar or high quality tackling you bring a recon in 99% of situations. Period. Only battleship that is valid as ewar is scorpion.

Even tacklign every day that passes is less relevant for Battleships due to prevalence of recons on battlefield. That is another reason that ammar disadvantaages disapeared with time.. at same tiem thtat minmatar advantages disapeared.

As I stated earlier. Being superior in a role that exist in 0.05% of time is not being good. Is being a game balance mistake. The game has evolved combatwise . Its not a place where battleshisp do anythign but TANK, FIRE, RR each other and with minor stress since NOS nerf.. CAP neutralize targets. If want tempest to do somethign different form that then it woudl need to be MASSIVELY superior on it to justify using it instead of one of the several dedicated role ships of eve.

Also all these things you can do with tempest Dominix can do.. and BETTER.. with more tank more damage and cheaper...

Dominix same number of mids... 1 extra low. The drones more than overcompensate for the 2 less high slots. If you wanted to make tempest at least MATCH the dominix amuch cheaper ship than it would need 125M drone bay and BW.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Edited by: Ecky X on 30/07/2009 13:24:03
This is a 6-gun Megathron, with 2 heavy neuts, compared with a 6x 800mm AC Pest, with 2 heavy neuts:


Link

Mega has more HP, same agility, more tracking, more damage, and most agree its slot layout is generally better.

Tempest cannot choose its damage type when fighting past 15km or so, you do absurdly little damage without using Barrage, and if you use anything except EMP, you gimp your damage even more. Choosing damage types is made up for by doing less damage with other damage types.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Now swap the heavy injector for a medium and fit neutrons. Even with a medium injector, a Mega can keep its guns running under a Tempest's dual heavy neuts more than long enough to kill the Pest. Posting a screenshot in a moment with my proposed fits.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Problem is, 800mm AC II's offer very little over dual 650's. And the Mega is better than the current Tempest far out of web/scram range - you have to be at 26km (out of heavy neut range!) and not using drones for the Tempest to break even in damage - with less EHP.

Certainly, the Tempest should be superior at ranges greater than, say, 18km, but at present it is inferior at all real combat ranges.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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The Geddon can neut too, it's just very difficult to fit.

Try putting range rigs on the Rokh, just for giggles. If you are ok with using an anc. current router (prices may drop after rig balance patch) you can keep the tracking enhancer. 2x locus are better than ambits when fitting Null, but 2x ambits are better if you want to use antimatter.

Either way, the Rokh is superior to the Tempest out to almost 50km when fit like this, peaking at 660dps (26km) while the Tempest is doing 375. Thus, a Rokh fit this way is worth almost 2 Tempests, or that is to say, two Tempests are not as good in any category as a Rokh + an ewar ship.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Instead, I'll ask you this question - what does the tempest do better than the typhoon or maelstrom?

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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Originally by: The Djego

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Oo almost forgot.. and on blaster pilots saying cap usage of guns is a HUGE issue. I fly abaddons as well. and NEVER EVER had any tiny minimal issue with capacitor. And That taking into account an abaddon eats 2 times mroe cap on its guns than the poor blasters do...

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I can confirm that I feel a lot of need to mwd in my Abaddon around simlar to my megathron.

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cared to try using that abaddon in 0.0 without MWD to see what happens? Remembers that the abaddon will likely need 1 more cycle of it sMWD to reach same place that megatron does because its fricking slow and heavy? Also while you MWding you are not using your guns usually (just at the end of cycle). Cap injection can deal easily with normal cap usage of a megatron. When under neuts the only thing that changes is that you might not have enough cap to MWD anymore, but very likely will stil have enough to fire. Abaddon would be in same situation .. but each abaddon shot requires you to have a much larger cap pool.

Its a MINIMAL advantage not using cap to fire! Is an advantage, but limited to very very rare situations. 9 in 10 minmatar pilots would LOVELY accept AC to use more capacitor than blasters if we got the extra cap that our ships miss back, if we got 15% damage boost (blasters are on the 35% more damage marks) and if our ships had the HP that blaster ships have above us.

Compared to the disadvantages.. no cap usage on guns is a JOKE!!! Since NOS nerf I NEVER EVER missed chance to fire a single shot because of lack of capacitor!

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Instead, I'll ask you this question - what does the tempest do better than the typhoon or maelstrom?

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It has more utility mid slots for destroying support ships

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I care to disagree. Though it does sport an extra mid on the phoon, it's slower and less agile. The phoon can fit an entire rack of neuts along with cruise and 5 heavy drones, web, tp and point. If that doesn't sound like a support killer, I don't know what is. The tempest is slower and the 5th mid really doesn't give you much oomph except fitting another point. I'd say they're even at best.

The tempest could become the support ship killer, but it needs more speed, more agility, and autos would need some love.

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Originally by: Cpt Cosmic

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What I want is:
-tempest fitting buffed thus I can fit it for sniping like a mega (or artillery fitting requirements reduced whatever is better gameplay wise) and dont forget to increase its sucky locking range
-with 2 dmg bonuses it should **** other ships even if it is not as tanky as others but it doesnt. fighting in falloff reduces dmg => this is fine, every weapon has a some kind of disadvantage or should have. blasters have range, projectiles have falloff, but what is laser disadvantage? cap? cap booster anyone? every serious laser pvp bs has one. this is not a laser whine, I want just show you that most of the time fitting lasers on a ship is better than fitting projectiles on a projectile bonused ship. first thing you should do is increase the projectile base dmg atleast on bs sized weaponry. why does the projectile ammo has less base dmg then hybrid and crystal ammo?
-after these change we can see how it works out ingame and on paper and then eventually boost the tempest with e.g. increasing its dmg boni.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Not sure if you're specifically goading an answer from Astro, but I replied to you already when you asked for specific numbers, and you didn't respond. I offered something that would keep ACs from stepping on blaster's toes. From my earlier post:

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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And projectiles are garbage against Amarr T2 ships, with their very high explosive and kinetic resists. What's your point?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Define 'love' for AC though.

My concern is Minmatar BS pilots asking to buff the Tempest with AC to do what a blaster boat does but better. Give me some numbers on what level of AC performance you'd want ona typical Tempest.

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My changes are always quite moderate, though when running through the numbers it would seem like a rather large boost is needed. I don't know where short range weapon graphs went (was it Aranis? Maybe it was seriously bored), but they depicted a pretty terrible autocannon DPS/range graph.

Anyway, a few or some combination of the following:

30-40% increase in falloff across the board to negate hit quality
Falloff scaling among tiers
EMP <-> Fusion switch
5-10% Damage increase
TE falloff modifier, TC script

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Originally by: The Djego

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Edited by: The Djego on 25/08/2009 19:35:12
I would like to see a Pest like this:

- 10% damage and 7.5% falloff per Minmatar BS level
- 100/150 Dronebay(compensating the DPS lose and give it more flexibility)
- a bit more speed/agility(5-10%)
- 10-15km more base lock range(for sniping)

So the Tempest even if it would still not be the DPS machine gains a lot more range and also more DPS at range. The extra drone bay helps in small scale and the extra lock range for sniping.

The rest I would fix direct on the weapons:

- bring T1/Faction amno in line to crystals\hybrid charges for base damage -> 10% DPS boost on short range amno
- switch EMP with Fusion(range/damage, explosive should be the main mini close range damagetype)

For Aks:

- give a 10-20% more falloff to the bigger AK tiers(increasing range by fitting bigger guns simlar to lasers\blasters), what increases damage at range if you decide to go for the bigger guns

Artis:

- reduce the ROF by 25%
- increase the damage by 40%(damage boost and more alpha)
- doulbe clip size across the board
- increase tracking to be between beams\rails since the it has the shortest optimal and should be able to relay on a tracking\alpha advantage -> make alphas that count and screw smaller ships

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