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Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 13:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 13:38:37 The pest is actually the best ~180km sniper in the game. It does most damage and it doesn't require cap to shoot. Which makes it really nice for sniper+RR It also has the highest alpha strike which is very nice in fleet battles. It's pretty fast for clearing bubbles too. The only thing Apoc and Rokh have over it is the range bonus. Another nice bonus is it's a relatively small battleship you can fir two of them in a carrier as opposed to only one apoc. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 16:14:00 - [2] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 16:15:38 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 13:38:37 The pest is actually the best ~180km sniper in the game. It does most damage and it doesn't require cap to shoot. Which makes it really nice for sniper+RR It also has the highest alpha strike which is very nice in fleet battles. It's pretty fast for clearing bubbles too. The only thing Apoc and Rokh have over it is the range bonus. Another nice bonus is it's a relatively small battleship you can fir two of them in a carrier as opposed to only one apoc. I would love to see your 180km Tempest fit, with RR, that out damages the Apoc and the Rokh. And as for the alpha comment. I think you need to check out some of the post on here about alpha versus DPS in fleet engagements. How so? Tempest will out alpha both of those by a long shot and it's DPS will also be higher. At no cost to cap. In fleet battles alpha is very important due to lag. [Tempest, affordable fleet lag wrecking sniper and RR] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large 'Arup' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Salvager I Ancillary Current Router I [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Warrior II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5 311 dps, Optimal 140km, 44km falloff (184), a really nice alpha 3228 , 73K EHP without bonuses -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 16:27:00 - [3] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 16:31:32 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Presidio Republic Fleet EMP L 311 dps, Optimal 140km, 44km falloff (184), a really nice alpha 3228 , 73K EHP without bonuses Dare you to beat that. If 200km snipe range isn't required, tempest > all You realize that with Tremor L (not RF EMP lol) you'll be doing ~118 DPS at 180km right? Anyway, pretty much any sniper BS beats that, and here is one: Apoc 8 megabeam II (AN MF) 100mn mwd, 2x sebo, tc 3x hs, 1600 rt, anp, dc, beta rcu 3x trimark OH, but you wanted alpha damage? Please examine Tach Abaddon for highest volley damage in game, combined with excellent DPS! I pasted wrong ammo. It's corrected now. My stats however are accurate. Your setup has 3 hss, tempest will match the dps with 3 gyros also with a much better alpha. While being able to maintain RR capability. Don't get me started on abaddon. Terrible cap, costs more and is slow. Tempest can do most damage while maintaining RR and all that for relatively cheap. Which is why I think it's the best sniper BS in the game for sub 200km ranges. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 16:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 16:40:08 Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 16:37:49 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Presidio I pasted wrong ammo. It's corrected now. My stats however are accurate. Your setup has 3 hss, and tempest beats it with 3 gyros. Except that it doesn't. And even that is not theoretically true since tempest has two more launcher points. But RR is better. Point still stands. Tempest highest alpha, while being one of the fastest, cap free, affordable does more dps than any sniper while being able to RR. Full disclosure: This is a max skill Amarr BS char -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Kismo Edited by: Kismo on 10/08/2009 16:57:53 Ed: The important thing to notice here is that the Apocs lost 3 ships in the first second compared to the Tempest's 1... and still came out far, far, far ahead. lol Yeah the sims = EVE. Listen I appreciate the effort you put into the sims however the sims don't account for two very important facts of fleet combat. You are comparing RR pests without using RR. Even more importantly the lag changes everything. When your mods are getting stuck and one of the remedies is not using autocycle for manual shooting Tempest clearly comes ahead. Try attacking a cyno jammer without RR let's see how far your fleet of non RR ships gets. As someone who flies both Amarr and Minmatar BSs I prefer Pest over all the others in all cases except for when the extreme range is required. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:17:00 - [6] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 17:16:57 Originally by: Orakkus Most DPS.. No, not only are you not applying the real 38.5% number which you HAVE to apply to get the real DPS AND alpha, but even with best skills, you are operating the slowest rate of fire weapon in the game. As has been mentioned time and time again, that catches up with you after the second round on straight gunnery trials and it REALLY catches up with you in fleet operations where you have to switch targets multiple times. Doesn't sound like you have very much fleet combat experience. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 19:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Presidio on 10/08/2009 19:06:27 Originally by: Orakkus Originally by: Presidio Originally by: Orakkus Most DPS.. No, not only are you not applying the real 38.5% number which you HAVE to apply to get the real DPS AND alpha, but even with best skills, you are operating the slowest rate of fire weapon in the game. As has been mentioned time and time again, that catches up with you after the second round on straight gunnery trials and it REALLY catches up with you in fleet operations where you have to switch targets multiple times. Doesn't sound like you have very much fleet combat experience. Well, I will admit, after looking at your battleclinic kills, you certainly have alot more fleet experience than I do. However, considering that in all of your Tempest battleship to battleship fights, you only managed to get top berth once against a Typhoon (Looks like a bait/roaming gang situation as well - only ten members on Killmail), and only a few times in the top five (though I didn't go through all of them, only about 20 to 30 killmails). Is that why you returned to the Apoc? I use both the Apoc and the Tempest. Apoc for when I need range and tempest for assaulting cyno jammers and big lag fests and RR. This is also not my only char. I still stand with what I said. For when up to 180km is acceptable tempest is the best sniper bs in my opinion, it's just an opinion that I base on these facts (most trolls completely miss the fact that I am not even looking at a single stats but rather a combination of factors): - It will outdps most fleet setups (with RR). And certainly outdps all the snipers who also try to RR (at 150km+). - It will provide excellent RR since all it's cap can be used for RR. - It offers great alpha. Ok maybe abadon and maelstorm can do more but those are tier 3 battleships and I am not comparing the pest to a tier 3 bs. - It's cheap. I am not really comparing to tier 3 BSs since those cost significantly more. - It's fast. - Damage types. Tremor has much better damage types than Aurora for BS vs BS sniper fleet engagements as on average EM will be the highest resistance. Comparing dmg on killmails is flawed, here are the reasons: - The kill mail often doesn't contain the correct damage numbers. Especially in laggy fleet fights. - It can show the people who were attacking the secondary target before the primary was dead on top. - It's luck based as well. Depends on who lands hits on shield, structure and armor. - Besides I was also RRing my fleet members on all those fights, vs just horing kills. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 20:13:00 - [8] Originally by: AstroPhobic The ability to utilize explosive damage and cram a RR in do not in any way compensate for the inferior dps and ehp. Period. In any respectable size fleet you won't even be able to lock a friendly and rr before he splodes or warps. Take a look at kismo's sim- it's a fairly accurate representation of an actual fleet fight, whether you choose to accept it or not. Also saying the tempest is the best 150km sniper is pure comedy gold. Can I see your apoc and rokh setups for comparison? Mega too. Here's a hint- all 3 of them have more dps and ehp, I guarantee you. Lastly the price difference between tier 3 and tier 2 is minimal. 10m after insurance? That's the cost of 3 large t2 guns... True RR is not always appropriate. In which cases I use the apoc like I said. But there are many cases where RR is awesome. POS assault, cyno jammer assault while being able to engage defenders at sniper ranges, smaller fleet fights (like 30 on 30). Due to damage type advantage tempest gets vs other armor tanked BSs I don't think you can call it inferior damage. I would gladly take higher speed over a few thousand EHP (as long as I am DD proof). Also geddons are pretty awesome @ the poster above me. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.10 21:27:00 - [9] Originally by: AstroPhobic ... It makes sense. Like I said I use apocs as well. And I would not fly a Tempest without RR. If I was looking for a ship without RR I would not pick a tempest myself either. I actually fly both Apocs and Tempests to fleet fights. I would like to bring up two additional points that EFT fails to answer. - Speed. The extra ~-200 more m/s has saved me on multiple occasions. Sometimes merely because I wasn't the last straggler when you're making a dash inside of a friendly POS, and sometimes clearing a bubble and jumping trough the gate like in this image: http://splatlog.com/tempest_noarmor_crop.jpg - Alpha based damage in laggy fights can be huge. Example: In one of the recent lag fleet fights I had something like 15 second lag with the modules getting stuck and not firing. One of the remedies at the time was to disable auto cycle. Being able to land a big hit whith 1400s was very beneficial and I think the tempest performed better than the apoc would have. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 00:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Horm Onal everyone that hasn't put in the training time to get lvl 5 minmatar bs with T2 large projectiles, get out. You don't know what you're talking about. Tempest is not fine/great. I have no damn clue what it needs or what should be nerfed on others but it's not working anymore after all the nerfs it had to deal with because other ships exploited the heck out of the nerfed **** (nos, ecm, ...) I've had level 5 minmatar battleship and L projectiles in 2003. -

Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 16:51:39 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Jarek Konecnik Originally by: Kismo stuff Snipe RR gang? Yeah, they are all over the test server, right?! Sorry, but giving that as an example just doesn't make sense. Nnnnoooooo, and I wouldn't say that they are. I was just pointing out that the the Pest doesn't even win at that contest, as had been suggested earlier in the thread. I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:31:00 - [12] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio I disagree. I think it wins pretty hard. [Apocalypse, Fleet] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Nanofiber Plates I F85 Peripheral Damage System I Adaptive Nano Plating II 100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Mega Beam Laser II, Aurora L Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Trimark Armor Pump I Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements just saying -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:46:00 - [13] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 19:46:52 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio slower, can't fit 2 in a carrier, not cap stable for pos bashes, less alpha, worst damage type for BSvBS sniper fleet engagements just saying Did you ignore the past 17 pages or what? Sorry, I can't deal with someone who goes "nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh nuh uh". I tried to be civil. Which post disputes anything I said? show me? That's right none. Quit being a troll. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:00:00 - [14] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 20:00:19 Originally by: Bibbleibble ... The post you reference fails to make the point and it actually makes the point for me quite well. Most sniper BSs are armor tanked (90%) from the post. Quote: Tempest: 152.7 DPS at 152km Apoc: 132 DPS at 171km Currently you can't fit 2 apocs in a carrier. My statement is correct. I said the fit above is not stable for POS bashes. And I am correct. You bring up a cap booster. You fail. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:03:00 - [15] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio Which post disputes anything I said? show me? That's right none. Quit being a troll. You're making yourself look ridiculous. All of those points have been addressed within this thread. Putting your fingers in your ears doesn't change any of it. You seem content with minmatar - that's great. Go on thinking that the pest is a good choice for sniper-anythings, nobody here will stop you. Trying to disprove solid evidence, facts, simulations, numbers without bringing any of your own is just stupid. You think the tempest is good? Show us YOUR numbers on why you think so. Think alpha is worth something? Show us YOUR simulations proving it. Think speed makes a big difference in a fleet battleship? It'll require more than a screenshot of you almost dead in a tempest. I played your game, asserted your claims and disproved them. If you think your opinions can be backed up with any sort of evidence, do so. Otherwise take the last 17 pages of this discussion and start educating yourself. You need more EVE experience and less EFT. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:13:00 - [16] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio You need more EVE experience and less EFT. NightmareX would be proud. If you're not going to be constructive, get out. Right now you're only being destructive. I am giving him and advice to play EVE more. How is that destructive? You on the other hand are being a troll. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 22:29:00 - [17] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:36:17 Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:35:43 Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion. In all honestly I provided all the numbers to back whatever claim I made. I was not disproven by "the math and logic" on any on those points. My claims are situational. I gave certain situations, assaulting a cyno jammer. The situation has nothing to do with EFT and math. I suggest the guy plays more to see what I am saying. Instantly everyone is down my throat about it. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 22:55:00 - [18] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 23:08:20 Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 22:42:05 Originally by: Seishi Maru [ Because your degree of awesomnes gives NO BONUS TO DAMAGE OR RANGE OR ANYTHING! So yes.. your answer is destructive and derogatory to a constructive discussion. I disagree I think you are being destructive. In all honestly I provided all the numbers to back whatever claim I made. I was not disproven by "the math and logic" on any on those points. My claims are situational. I gave certain situations as examples one being assaulting a cyno jammer and the benefits of RR in those. The situation has nothing to do with EFT and math. I suggest the guy plays more to see what I am saying. Instantly everyone is down my throat about it. You gave some numbers and fittings, and I responded with numbers and fittings proving Amarr battleships can be better than the fit you gave us. Now you have to make a counter-arguement, or revise your fitting. I thought I responded to you by saying Geddon is awesome. Originally by: Presidio Also geddons are pretty awesome @ the poster above me. But since you feel I should respond with more, here: Originally by: Ecky X 335dps to the Tempest's 317, 70,400 EHP to the Tempest's 73,000, 137k optimal vs 140k. I'll grant you that your Tempest fit will have more cap than a Geddon with 2 empty highslots and no rigs, but you've got slots left over to be creative with. The current router is not a cheap rig. First of all you forget to mention a huge falloff difference between howitzers and beams. And everyone who actually flies Minmatar ships knows that minmatars fight in falloff. With that said Geddon is a great ship probably one of the best all around battleships. However for RR sniper work tempest is better because of the cap situation. I haven't checked but I think it's also faster than Geddon, I may be wrong on that though. I also prefer the Tremor damage types over Aurora against a BS sniper fleet or a BS RR fleet which is almost always armor RR. So what is your disagreement? -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:20:00 - [19] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 23:22:36 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Presidio First of all you forget to mention a huge falloff difference between howitzers and beams. And everyone who actually flies Minmatar ships knows that minmatars fight in falloff. Yeah, it's definitely something we can do, but I really try not to most of the time. It hurt's the damage output too much, unless it means I can simply prevent my opponent from dealing any damage at all. That's actually wrong. At optimal range + 50% of the falloff you will still do close to full damage. Falloff Formula Due to projectiles lower tracking speed all "good" minmatar pilots always try to fight in that falloff sweet spot. Which is why my "less EFT more EVE" comment is really not so out of place. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:24:00 - [20] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 23:24:23 Originally by: Ecky X Falloff is range, it's just a poorer version of range than optimal that caues damage to be reduced. Saying we fight in falloff is meaningless. I stopped there. -

Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Presidio That's actually wrong. At optimal range + 50% of the falloff you will still do full damage. Falloff Formula Due to projectiles lower tracking speed all "good" minmatar pilots always try to fight in that falloff sweet spot. Which is why my "less EFT more EVE" comment is really not so out of place. This is 100%, totally and completely incorrect. Due to hit chance and quality, you only do 38% of your normal DPS at optimal + falloff. If a Vagabond is using autocannons with 6km optimal and 20km falloff, and EFT says "400dps", then at 26km it's only doign 152dps. A Zealot with 26km optimal doing 400dps is really doing 400dps at 26km. Read my post again and see where you made a mistake. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:35:00 - [22] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 11/08/2009 23:30:36 Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 23:22:36 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: Presidio First of all you forget to mention a huge falloff difference between howitzers and beams. And everyone who actually flies Minmatar ships knows that minmatars fight in falloff. Yeah, it's definitely something we can do, but I really try not to most of the time. It hurt's the damage output too much, unless it means I can simply prevent my opponent from dealing any damage at all. That's actually wrong. At optimal range + 50% of the falloff you will still do close to full damage. Falloff Formula Due to projectiles lower tracking speed all "good" minmatar pilots always try to fight in that falloff sweet spot. Which is why my "less EFT more EVE" comment is really not so out of place. This does not account for hit quality which will reduce dps by another 50%. Look at the EFT graph, take the EFT dps and subtract the dps@range number. Multiply this number by 1.5 and then subtract it from your EFT dps again. This is your real DPS. At opt+50% falloff you'll actually be doing about 80% of your EFT dps. In response to your "less EFT more EVE" comment, I must say "Less EFT more EVE". Also, most posters here are fully aware of the "sweet spot" or range before the dip. It's one of the reasons why my suggested boosts for autocannons is a lengthening of falloff - so that "sweet spot" is at an appropriate range for minmatar to fight at instead of on the brink of being melted by blasters. Here is actually a better explanation of the falloff. http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Accuracy_Falloff Quote: At a range between 10,000 m and 15,000 m (the first falloff range), this turret will hit 90% down to 50% as often still doing the same damages as in optimal range. Which reaffirms my statement. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Presidio Quote: At a range between 10,000 m and 15,000 m (the first falloff range), this turret will hit 90% down to 50% as often still doing the same damages as in optimal range. Which reaffirms my statement. That statement is wrong, you do less damage due to reduced hit quality - meaning you get more "barely scratched" and "hits lightly", as well as hitting less often. CCP has not admitted to this (afaik), but it has been experimentally proven. citation needed -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.11 23:53:00 - [24] Edited by: Presidio on 11/08/2009 23:54:04 Originally by: Ecky X Edited by: Ecky X on 11/08/2009 23:37:59 Anyway, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for, Presidio. "Due to projectiles lower tracking speed all "good" minmatar pilots always try to fight in that falloff sweet spot. Which is why my "less EFT more EVE" comment is really not so out of place." Are you asserting that somehow fighting in falloff with artillery makes them better than a Tachyon, which has better tracking to begin with, fighting in optimal? Autocannons have the highest tracking (only by a little though), so the falloff sweetspot for them really has nothing to do with tracking at all. Rather, it's about being out of blasters' range, or hoping that the Amarrian ship doesn't have lasers, which out-range and out-damage you, and which you can't get under the tracking without screwing your own tracking. Well it started with me saying, you omitted a huge difference in falloff between that geddon setup you posted and my tempest setup. Ie: The tempest's optimal operating range (with my setup) is from 140km-162km and it will still hit at 190km. While your setup has a range of: 135-140 and it will still hit at ~170 or thereabouts (please double check). And than someone said something to the effect of fighting in falloff is bad. To which I explained falloff. My overall theme here is that Tempest is still pretty damn good for sniper fleets, especially ones assaulting a cyno jammer (and in my humble opinion the best) for when you need to fit a RR. And if you don't know that's one of the main roles for battleships in 0.0 warfare. It's great because it does great damage combined with the fact that it does it while having RR fitted, it is fast for clearing bubbles and it has a great damage types against other armor tanked targets whether they be other BS fleet or a armor RR gang (which is majority of RR). Of course I am posting in a thread of bunch of people who think Tempest is terrible and I am being trolled by like 5 people which sort of makes it hard to stay on topic. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:05:00 - [25] Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2009 00:06:45 Originally by: AstroPhobic Also citation: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333 ed: that totally wasnt the thread. sec double ed: the link works but there was a much prettier thread somewhere within the depths of SHC Thanks for providing that. And if that's true that's surely a big issue. I am all for fixing that. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Presidio .. Any my point is that the Tempest is not great if all 3 Amarr BS, plus the Megathron/Hyperion and Rokh do it better. A ship is not "good" if it is bad relative to other ships. Fine we can agree to disagree then. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:26:00 - [27] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2009 00:06:45 Originally by: AstroPhobic Also citation: http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?p=114333#114333 ed: that totally wasnt the thread. sec double ed: the link works but there was a much prettier thread somewhere within the depths of SHC Thanks for providing that. And if that's true that's surely a big issue. I am all for fixing that. It's a fairly unknown (outside of minnie forum warriors and your regular forum warriors) and does cost a good deal of damage to be lost from fighting in falloff, one of the reasons I constantly propose a falloff lengthening for autocannons. It has fairly little to do with artillery and the failure thereof, but as you see I won't waste our time - I'm completely dead set on my position and I assume you are too. Overall I am of the opinion that large projectiles should be looked at, especially in the light of the falloff bug you provided. It wouldn't bother me if Tempest stayed the same though. This is coming from someone who uses Tempests. I think we have a far better chance demonstrating a case for 2nd look into projectiles than we do with Tempests. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Ecky X I'm sure these fittings are terrible, but they're all better than the 'pest: C'mon man, I thought we ended on a nice note. Don't flood us with EFT theorycraft of (in your own words) terrible fits. -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:32:00 - [29] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio Overall I am of the opinion that large projectiles should be looked at, especially in the light of the falloff bug you provided. It wouldn't bother me if Tempest stayed the same though. This is coming from someone who uses Tempests. I think we have a far better chance demonstrating a case for 2nd look into projectiles than we do with Tempests. It's quite obvious that projectiles need help, or at least the most pronounced at the larger sizes. I've always said fix projectiles first then look at the ships. That said, the tempest is overshadowed by both the mael or typhoon unless considering the extremely niche roles such as sniper fleets that use RR or pos bashing that happens >100km. Most people talk about the tempest in it's close range form - as artillery is quite dreadful and the maelstrom makes a better 150km/EHP fleet sniper. I agree 100% -
Presidio Minmatar General Patton's Plan	Posted - 2009.08.12 00:44:00 - [30] Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2009 00:45:50 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Presidio I agree 100% Isn't that nice, we can all get along. See, I'm not the big bad troll you make me out to be. Well you presented your facts clearly with the citations provided. I got educated and we all win -

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