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Skyler Hawk
Bondage Goat Zombie
0
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Posted - 2012.05.25 00:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
So CCP what do you think of giving the players a one time skill point reallocation? Keeping in mind of coarse some pre reqs to wualify for this for example needing 50 mil SP, or having a character age of 2the years... something to that effect! The reason i am suggesting this is when players start the game they train a wide variety of things not knowing what they will like after playing an extensive ammount of time players quickly realize... " what the heck was i thinking, why did i train that. So late game experienced veteran players wont have that feeling of "what man i wasted 8 mil SP in gunnery... and i hate PVP". Im interested to hear what the devs have to say on this matter and if it has been tossed around before and if declined as any possibility... why? |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
717
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 00:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Run a search. Been asked for and shot down many, many, many times. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
981
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Posted - 2012.05.25 00:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
no shut up |

Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
47
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Posted - 2012.05.25 05:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
No. |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
1678
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Posted - 2012.05.25 05:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hmm, I'm seeing a trend in these responses, go figure, lol.
Yeah, been proposed so many times, still a horrible idea, use the search button if you want to read pages of reasons why it's so horrible. |

Trollin
55
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Posted - 2012.05.25 05:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
the 50m sp and 2 years thing is lawl
no
live with your stupid choices . |

lol fourm troll
State War Academy Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2012.05.25 05:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
So you are saying I have to live with my stupidity in training mining ALL the way to level 3!!!???!?!? |

Trollin
55
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Posted - 2012.05.25 06:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
you could always save up isk and buy who you want to be and sell your crap old main afaik . |

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
271
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 07:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
no, sh*t idea - every single time its brought up. go away. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 07:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm curious as to precisely why its a "sh*t idea" seeing as it gets requested so often. Is there some reason aside from "No, cus EVE is hardcoar"? I'm not referring to this idea in particular, but the basic concept in general. I recall it was a lot of work for CCP to create a mechanism in game to refund sp to begin with when they were removing Learning skills. Yet said mechanism now goes unutilized for anything.
Surely there's level of inherent cost, risk or punishment that can go along with it that should appease the bloodthirsty hardcore? -.- |

mxzf
Shovel Bros
1680
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 08:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:I'm curious as to precisely why its a "sh*t idea" seeing as it gets requested so often. Is there some reason aside from "No, cus EVE is hardcoar"? I'm not referring to this idea in particular, but the basic concept in general. I recall it was a lot of work for CCP to create a mechanism in game to refund sp to begin with when they were removing Learning skills. Yet said mechanism now goes unutilized for anything.
Surely there's level of inherent cost, risk or punishment that can go along with it that should appease the bloodthirsty hardcore? -.-
As we already pointed out in the thread, just run a search and you'll find a few threads with explanations about why it's a bad idea. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 08:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
mxzf wrote:As we already pointed out in the thread, just run a search and you'll find a few threads with explanations about why it's a bad idea.
I have looked and the two biggest reasons I've seen thus far are "No, because THIS IS SPARTA" and "No, because people will use it to FOTM"
The former is irrelevant, the later can be addressed rather easily through limitations and penalties. There are once a year neural remaps. You can't tell me a once a year skill remap of x amount of SP would disrupt the game in any way. Nor that penalizing systems that actually cause you to lose SP to reassign some SP would bring about the end of the universe.
Provided there is a significant limitation and/or penalty I don't see what the glaring issue is.
|

Yelena Fedorova
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.05.25 08:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
has been suggested 123580356 times and only way i would allow it is that you only get 0% back of the sp used on the skill |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 08:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Yelena Fedorova wrote:has been suggested 123580356 times and only way i would allow it is that you only get 0% back of the sp used on the skill
Well, luckily its not up to you and if its been suggested 123580356, CCP should probably explore it =p |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7328
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 09:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.
So no. There's a reason it hasn't been implemented in spite of people asking for it again and again: it's inherently incompatible with the game design, it solves nothing, and it breaks the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |

Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 09:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Stop trying to change the very fundamental principle of EvE please. |

Jafit
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
126
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 09:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
I have SP in mining that I'd really like to have reassigned. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 09:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
Hyperbolic. It does not remove the point of skills in any way shape or form unless you can respec all your skills at any time for no penalty whatsoever. Something not even WoW does.
"It removes the point of having attributes."
Only if you can respec whenever, however you want for no penalty. If being able to remap attributes once per year does not remove the point of attributes, how does being able to respec x SP once per year?
"It removes attribute implants from the game."
See above. Also, attribute implants existence with Learning skills gone is slowly becoming a topic of debate on the forums as well.
"It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups."
Irrelevant. Only a concern if, again, you allow it all the time any time with no cost or penalty. If it is time limited someone can already train into a FOTM set up in a vastly shorter time than waiting for a respec.
"It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character."
The uniquness and history of your character depends vastly more on that characters experiences, kill mails, alliances, standings, wallet, etc than it does on "What I left in queue for a month". Time erases skill uniqueness in EVE as ultimately there are only so many roads a player can eventually go down that differentiate them from others. Time lessens a character's uniqueness as skill training branches out the characters capabilities and accessible roles.
"It removes planning and choice and consequences."
First of all, it does nothing of the sort unless, yet again, you think it should be a button you can just magically press whenever you like with no consequence.
Secondly, EVE has a terrible new player experience rife with pitfalls and mistakes they will make not because of lack of intelligence or skill, but from lack of the game adequately explaining itself to them. So they should be on the hook for the game's failings?
"It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas."
You're arguing entirely from the platform that a respec option would be available all the time for everyone for no penalty or cost. There is not a single mainstream MMO on the market that allows this save maybe Guild Wars.
"It kills character trading."
Only if you're making wild speculations as to how it would be implimented in the worst possible way contrary to the common sense of the entire MMO industry. If anything it improves character trading by allowing you to trim a character into a more attractive product.
"It massively boosts older characters over new ones." "It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do."
Its already impossible to "catch up" and this would be quite the reverse. If you were penalized a significant portion of SP for using it, it would actually allow younger characters to catch up to older characters that abused it.
"So no. There's a reason it hasn't been implemented in spite of people asking for it again and again: it's inherently incompatible with the game design, it solves nothing, and it breaks the game."
It does nothing of the sort unless it is implimented in the most idiotic, disasterous way possible which is entirely what you're arguing against and would never be implimented in that fashion by CCP or any other major MMO company with a shred of common sense. |

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
272
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 09:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote: See above. Also, attribute implants existence with Learning skills gone is slowly becoming a topic of debate on the forums as well.
you suck. not commenting the rest of your bullshit posted, but just because some people have issues with the implants, doesnt mean they "slowly become a topic". Imlants are fine. You have no claim to max skill speed, just people who can afford loosing them. Get better at this game or accept drawbacks.
|

Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 10:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Yelena Fedorova wrote:has been suggested 123580356 times and only way i would allow it is that you only get 0% back of the sp used on the skill Well, luckily its not up to you and if its been suggested 123580356, CCP should probably explore it =p
Well, luckily CCP did review it 123580356 times. Still no reallocation yet since 2003. You might get the point... |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 10:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:you suck. not commenting the rest of your bullshit posted, but just because some people have issues with the implants, doesnt mean they "slowly become a topic". Imlants are fine. You have no claim to max skill speed, just people who can afford loosing them. Get better at this game or accept drawbacks.
I suck because I made an observation? Perhaps you should try forming a coherent thought and contributing something to the discussion aside from spittle. -.- |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7333
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 10:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:Hyperbolic. It does not remove the point of skills in any way shape or form unless you can respec all your skills at any time for no penalty whatsoever.
Only if you can respec whenever, however you want for no penalty. If being able to remap attributes once per year does not remove the point of attributes, how does being able to respec x SP once per year? No, it's not hyperbolic because there is no penalty large enough (other than GÇ£you lose all SPGÇ¥) to stop people from abusing it. There's a huge difference between SP and attributes: you do not gain more attributes over time and they don't actually change what you can do in-game.
Remapping SP means you can go from doing one thing do doing something completely different from one day to the next, and if you can do that, then skills might as well not exist. They're there to do the exact opposite: to make you pick a path (carefully) and live with it. As it happens, the way the EVE skill system works, there is never any need to remap those SP. If you want to do something else, you can just do it, but you still have to make that choice: do you really want to do that over something else? Remapping SP devalues or outright removes that choice. That is a bad thing.
It also means attributes (and their implants) no longer matter because it means you are no longer really training skills GÇö you're training SP, which you can then remap for the skills you want. This is why planning and goal-setting goes out the window: because you are now just a pile of SP rather than a (more or less) carefully selected combination of skills.
Quote:Irrelevant. Only a concern if, again, you allow it all the time any time with no cost or penalty. If it is time limited someone can already train into a FOTM set up in a vastly shorter time than waiting for a respec. No, it's not irrelevant. It's one of core design decisions of the game: you pick your skills and you live by them.
Until this game is 19 years old, there will still be differences between what players have chosen, and these differences have meaning and value. Erasing them for no good reason makes no sense.
Quote:First of all, it does nothing of the sort unless, yet again, you think it should be a button you can just magically press whenever you like with no consequence. No-one ever offers any consequencesGǪ so that's a pretty reasonable assumption to make.
Moreover, it makes no difference for new payers since guess what: everyone made those mistakes and when you're new, they're so small as to not matter GÇö they're just learning experiences. There are tons of resources out there to teach new players what to train and what to hold back on. New players can do what everyone else already does: pick a different set of skills to train.
Quote:Its already impossible to "catch up" and this would be quite the reverse. Completely incorrect. It is, in fact, impossible not to catch up. Why? Because total SP doesn't matter. With skill remapping, suddenly it does. What matters is what skills you've chosen and how well they work together. Those skills all have a maximum level that you can reach, and once you've got that last level, you have caught up. It is almost inevitable.
Again, skill remapping transforms characters from being a collection of skill decisions into being an amorphous pile of SP, and guess what happens then? That total SP value GÇö which previous had no meaning whatsoever GÇö suddenly becomes a measure of how powerful the character is and what he can do. Suddenly, total SP matters, and total SP is the only thing a new player can't catch up with. In every other respect, catching up is automatic and inevitable to the point where the concept has no meaning in EVE.
The whole idea hinges on EVE working like other games where picking one path locks you out from picking another, and on a deeply flawed thinking that GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ is somehow relevant as if SP were the same as XP in a class/level-based system. Neither are true, and this attempt at a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist only creates the exact problems it's supposed to solve. The solutions are already inherent in the skill system GÇö there is nothing more to GÇ£solve.GÇ¥ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |

Leviathian
Black Core Federation Intrepid Crossing
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 10:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Do not support.
As much as I'd love to go back and just reallocate all my SP in a coherent fashion, it's gamebreaking.
You're taking away a critical game element - forging your own character. If i made a similiarity between what you're suggesting here, and if it was suggested in another MMO -- It's like asking to be able to change your level 80 Dwarf Mage into a level 80 Elf Ranger - Because you decided you don't wanna be a Dwarf Mage anymore they're dumb. Well guess what princess, you're going to have to skill an elf ranger up to level 80 like everybody else did.
Also this game is better for it, if people aren't perfectly skilled into areas. majority of people aren't skilled properly, which is exactly the way this game should operate because you're not SUPPOSED to be perfectly skilled. we'll always be training SP into things, level 5's take AGES for a reason - either go hard or go home.
If we can all just change our characters at whim, what would be the point of selling/buying characters? Suddenly the only thing that matters would be how much SP you have, not where it's located, and how many "Remaps" you have left. Characters would suddenly go on a linear scale of how much they're worth. 10msp? 3bln. 15msp? 5bln. why? because people just pay for the amount of SP they have since nothing else matters anymore.
I once heard somebody say people are like electricity, we go the path that's least resistant. Well, personally, I agree with him. EVE is far too easy as it is. Either skill up the hard way or go home. We don't need to make EVE any easier for people who don't want to put the time and effort into it. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No-one ever offers any consequencesGǪ so that's a pretty reasonable assumption to make.
My very original statement was open ended on there being some sort of significant consequence or limitation. The op's idea is his own. I'm just curious about the topic as it could have saved me some headaches and an entire character when I first started way back.
Its not that I don't understand the points you're making, its that there has to be a reasonable comprise here to satisfy both camps. Whether it be a time or even an account limitation. Much like limiting neural remapping to 1 year prevents exploitation, a similar limit would provide similar contraints to SP remapping. A way to limit it to prevent exploitation while retaining character uniqueness but still offering some measure of convenience to the customer.
If it was limited to once a year for example and you could not remap any skill that was trained to level V? The time limitation would prevent FOTM'n and the skill level limitation would retain uniquness. Once you commit to something you're stuck with it for life. Players trying to use it to FOTYear would never be as effective as the ones that committed to their descisions.
My main issue is that as long as the new player experience is so honestly awful, there's a need for a "Now that I know better" method of revisting your early desicions. Hell, it could even be only once per character per account. That would satisfy 95% of the complaints I've seen on the forums. The other 5% of FOTMers, so fark them anyhow. ;p
Conversely, the NPE and learning curve of the game could be drastically improved. But until it is, there's going to continue to be requests for some sort of skill remap mechanism. CCP has to fix one or the other to be honest. |

Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
xhaiden, you're flogging a dead horese here... |

Leviathian
Black Core Federation Intrepid Crossing
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
People don't need their skills remapped at all, not one single bit. There is a comprimise though. It's called never remapping any skillpoints to prevent exploitation.
People don't need SP remapped. They want something? then train into it. Deal with the consequences of your decisions. Made a bad decision? Live with it. That's the life we live in now, why do you expect something different in a game?
I agree though, newbies do need a better learning experience. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 11:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Leviathian wrote:People don't need SP remapped. They want something? then train into it. Deal with the consequences of your decisions. Made a bad decision? Live with it. That's the life we live in now, why do you expect something different in a game?
I agree though, newbies do need a better learning experience.
Thus is the crux of the issue ultimately. As long as one problem is present, requests will keep coming for the other. You can't tell someone to live with their decisions when they have inadequate information to make those decisions on. I haven't seen much in the way of improvements to the game's difficulty curve though.
Also I imagine people expect something different because, well, it is a game. >.>
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7336
|
Posted - 2012.05.25 12:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xhaiden Ora wrote:My very original statement was open ended on there being some sort of significant consequence or limitation. The op's idea is his own. GǪand I'm responding to the OP's idea and why it will never happen. The only limitation that would make this idea work is one that ensures that it is never used, making the whole thing pointless to implement to begin with.
Quote:I'm just curious about the topic as it could have saved me some headaches and an entire character when I first started way back. Don't tell me you ditched an entire characterGǪ  There is never any reason to nuke a character because of the skills it has trained. Never. That is the whole point of the skill system and why this idea is never needed: because you can always do something else if you choose to. You are never locked into a single path. If you want to do something, you can just go and do it.
Quote:its that there has to be a reasonable comprise here to satisfy both camps. Not really, no. The only reasonable GÇ¥compromiseGÇ¥ is that those with OCD can delete skills and lose the SP forever. Anything else and that entire list comes down on your head: the removal of planning; the FOTM-chasing; the removal of attributes; screwing over new players. You also can't compare SP remaps with attribute remaps for the reasons I outlined: they are not nearly the same thing. Your attributes do not provide you with any abilities, nor do you gain or lose them.
Quote:If it was limited to once a year for example and you could not remap any skill that was trained to level V? The time limitation would prevent FOTM'n and the skill level limitation would retain uniquness. Not really, no. The time limitation is what would create FOTMs and the level limitation would remove uniqueness since everyone would be at lvl IV.
Quote:My main issue is that as long as the new player experience is so honestly awful, there's a need for a "Now that I know better" method of revisting your early desicions. Yes there is: train other skills. That solves the entire problem before it even exists. This is not a new-player problem GÇö it's a GÇ£I'm assuming EVE works like other games in terms of how it limits character buildingGÇ¥-problem. It has to do with incorrect assumptions and flawed perceptions, not game mechanics.
The only remotely connected problem is that there are griefers sitting in newbie support and newbie NPC corp chat telling new players that they need to train for lvl IV and lvl V skills and get this that or the other before they try any given activity. That's also not a mechanics problem, but a people problem.
There quite literally is no problem to solve as far as the skill mechanics are concerned. The NPE problem you mention have to do with educating those new players so they understand how the game works, not changing the game so it works the way they assume it will. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Shift-click does nothing GÇö why the Unified Inventory isn't ready for primetime. |

Xhaiden Ora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.26 09:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Don't tell me you ditched an entire characterGǪ
This was back in the Learning Skill days when there was a double speed bonus period. It was literally faster overall for me to train a second character "The Right Way(tm)" with the double speed bonus again and better implants then it was to continue with my first character that I made whilst unaware of Learning Skills or implants.
Like it or not, a new character rolled by someone with knowledge/ISK will completely blow a new player's character out of the water training wise. Combine that with the **** off for new players getting a week into the game than realizing there was actually been a way to train faster all this time. They just can't afford it. Then if they *can* afford it by virtue of an older player giving them the ISK, they become incredibly risk adverse as to not lose their training speed via implants. So they sit in high sec and don't venture much into all the game has to offer.
Really, the whole new player experience is a clusterfark and makes an awful case to new players for why they should want to keep playing.
Tippia wrote: There quite literally is no problem to solve as far as the skill mechanics are concerned. The NPE problem you mention have to do with educating those new players so they understand how the game works, not changing the game so it works the way they assume it will.
Its not a matter of assumption. Its a matter of the game being very complicated, poorly explained and with mechanics that outright punish you for lacking the knowledge it doesn't actually provide you with. That is a massive problem for customer retention. You should not be penalized for not knowing what you're not actually told. Nor can you, in the face of that fact, make the argument that the game is about permanent choices.
EVE will never see a significant influx of new blood until it addresses these problems. |
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