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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Haffrage
Haff and Haff
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Posted - 2009.08.02 20:58:00 -
[121]
Also, cool dev guy that tells me stuff I like to hear, I think this is all making a great case for putting a in stront bays for all siege/triage-ing ships. And a Super Mega Heavy-Watercooler for rorquals I guess, so the dreads and carriers have something to stand around and talk about crap at.
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Reno Shinra
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:09:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Reno Shinra on 02/08/2009 21:10:12
Its nerf after nerf in this game, eventually all ships will be all the same, CCP do this so its harder for ppl to accomplish tasks in the game,making the experience of eve take longer, ergo making us pay longer.
I think the cap nerf sux big time, i use my cap to haul with, it took me 6 months to save up for it a futher 6 months to get the skills with it, this new nerf 12 months of hard work down the pan. i think this is all of the big eve devs plan to make us keep playing and paying longer.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth, i think ill save up for a rhea and then insure it get it blown up and get half back for what i payed for it bonus for ccp win win win ching ching 
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:20:00 -
[123]
Main complaints about nerfs it seems:
Carriers:
1) I can't solo-salvage up after a battle.
a) Alright, so basically you don't trust your corp/alliance to bring in someone else with a cargo ship to actually salvage and hand out the loot equally. Also, why do you want to slow-boat to the many wrecks in a ship that screams kill me? This makes no sense.
2) I can't deploy a POS.
Since when was this the carrier's role? And who actually does this? Last I checked, most alliances use Industrial ships to deploy POSes, not carriers/Motherships (lol).
3) I can't do solo hauling anymore.
You still have the same corporate hanger space and can cargo expand it. So....yeah.
Dreads:
1) Can't haul.
What?! This is a freaking dread. Its like asking a battleship to haul.
Good lord, you guys cry a lot. Keep supplying them, you're giving everyone a lot of funny material.
If you really want change, why don't you give actual combat reasons why they should have bigger cargo bays. Your constant arguments about hauling really have no weight when ships like the Rorqual, Jumpfreighters and T2 Transport ships still exist in-game.
@CCP Dev, thanks for staying in the thread and dealing with these whiny people. I support these changes but there is one thing I've noticed:
Black Ops: I think 2K fuel bay should be what it gets. 1K seems just a little too small especially if you want more than 5 ppl in your fleet. But it is a step in the right direction.
--Isaac
Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
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Issea
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:24:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Issea on 02/08/2009 21:26:42
-nm-
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:29:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 02/08/2009 21:32:50
 Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
3) I can't do solo hauling anymore.
You still have the same corporate hanger space and can cargo expand it. So....yeah.
Generally i agree with you... Just a little clarification... U cannot cargo expand corp hangar, it's fixed 10k, and cargoexpanding small cargo bay will not give u many m3... But still 10k+ is good volume... And normal carriers don't use cargo expanders even when hauling, because sometimes it may lead to losing ur carrier without any chance of survival, and if u use up that low slots for tank u get some chance to survive...
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.08.02 21:33:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Trimutius III
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
3) I can't do solo hauling anymore.
You still have the same corporate hanger space and can cargo expand it. So....yeah.
Generally i agree with you... Just a little clafication... U cannot cargo expand corp hangar, it's fixed 10k, and cargoexpanding small cargo bay will not give u many m3... But still 10k+ is good volume... And normal carriers don't use cargo expanders even when hauling, because sometimes it may lead to losing u carrier without any chance of survival, and if u use up that low slots for tank u get that chance to survive...
Yeah, I meant the cargo bay, not the corp hanger.
--Isaac
Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
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Kayosoni
Caldari
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:11:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Kayosoni on 02/08/2009 22:11:43
Originally by: Vrenth
Also, the consumption quantity listed is for the blackops jumping. Portal consumption is based on ship size, I believe a recon is like 80m3 or something silly like that.
unless it got changed recently recons use 250-350 isos per lY for jumping. black ops indys also use like 3000 per jump.
---
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HyperZerg
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:16:00 -
[128]
Interesting update but one Question that hasn't been answerd:
How to fit a Carrier/Mothership in Space without a Station? 4km¦ of Fitting doesn't get into 875m¦ Cargo :(
Maybe a fitting bay ? ^^
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Vrenth
Gallente
Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.02 22:44:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
I don't see where this equivalence between SIEGE and TRIAGE is coming from.
An upper limit of six cycles of stront is acceptable on dread ops, so sizing the bay for six cycles with reasonable skills is fine.
Four carriers can rep a POS from out.of.reinforced.shield.level to restront.shield.level in one triage cycle. No one needs to be in triage for more than two cycles, as it is currently used. So two cycles of triage with reasonable skills is an acceptable limit. Also, triage currently takes place mainly at friendly POS, so providing extra stront from a fleet support Rorqal and hauler is pretty easy to do.
Now if the triage mode had a shorter cycle, things might get more intersting.
Yes, because Triage has NO combat uses at all... it was only made for repping POS.
Because you havn't seen a more creative use for it, doesn't mean others don't.
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Mynas Atoch
UK Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:02:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Vrenth
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Four carriers can rep a POS from out.of.reinforced.shield.level to restront.shield.level in one triage cycle. No one needs to be in triage for more than two cycles, as it is currently used. So two cycles of triage with reasonable skills is an acceptable limit. Also, triage currently takes place mainly at friendly POS, so providing extra stront from a fleet support Rorqal and hauler is pretty easy to do.
Now if the triage mode had a shorter cycle, things might get more intersting.
Yes, because Triage has NO combat uses at all... it was only made for repping POS.
Because you havn't seen a more creative use for it, doesn't mean others don't.
Apart from suicidal attempts to save supercaps, yeah .. no one uses them in combat at all. Now if they had a shorter cycle time than ten minutes, things might change.
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Bozse
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:06:00 -
[131]
Quote:
Apart from suicidal attempts to save supercaps, yeah .. no one uses them in combat at all. Now if they had a shorter cycle time than ten minutes, things might change.
Just becuse you think it's a stupid use isn't a valid reason to remove the ability by design, could agree on the cycle time though.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
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dastommy79
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.02 23:14:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 02/08/2009 21:33:43
Main complaints about nerfs it seems:
Carriers:
1) I can't solo-salvage up after a battle.
a) Alright, so basically you don't trust your corp/alliance to bring in someone else with a cargo ship to actually salvage and hand out the loot equally. Also, why do you want to slow-boat to the many wrecks in a ship that screams kill me? This makes no sense.
2) I can't deploy a POS.
Since when was this the carrier's role? And who actually does this? Last I checked, most alliances use Industrial ships to deploy POSes, not carriers/Motherships (lol).
3) I can't do solo hauling anymore.
You still have the same corporate hanger space and can add cargo expanders to get your bay up if needed...which you don't.
Dreads:
1) Can't haul.
What?! This is a freaking dread. Its like asking a battleship to haul.
Good lord, you guys cry a lot. Keep supplying them, you're giving everyone a lot of funny material.
If you really want change, why don't you give actual combat reasons why they should have bigger cargo bays. Your constant arguments about hauling really have no weight when ships like the Rorqual, Jumpfreighters and T2 Transport ships still exist in-game.
@CCP Dev, thanks for staying in the thread and dealing with these whiny people. I support these changes but there is one thing I've noticed:
Black Ops: I think 2K fuel bay should be what it gets. 1K seems just a little too small especially if you want more than 5 ppl in your fleet. But it is a step in the right direction.
--Isaac
1. no one thinks they can solo salvage after a battle in carriers. The complaint if you can read is that we have a 10km3 corp hangar that we cant put stuff into in space. If my buddy dies next to me in a fight and i have that 10km3 open space, i would like to grab his siege mod and one of his guns or a repper for him for when i jump out. We don't want nor expect to solo salvage a field, we just want access to our storage capabilities in space. No one in their right mind will trade out of their combat ship to jump into a transport to loot mid fight. This would make sense if you understood the concept maybe.
2. Same argument as 1. We have the space but cant use it. No one wants to solo anything they just want full access to their ships attribute. It would be nice to help the poor sucker stuck in a rorqual instead of a combat ship do his job so he can switch out and have more fun. Thats why i propose a 4km3 cargo bay until ccp decides to give us full access to our corp hangars.
3. Carriers cant solo haul since the nerf years ago. They are impractical for keeping people supplied out in 00. Again your comments make you appear that you dont know what you are talking about. Also carriers need this corp hangar to allow themselves and other combat ships to refit and store mods they are using/will use/find.
Quote:
Good lord, you guys cry a lot. Keep supplying them, you're giving everyone a lot of funny material.
Quote:
@CCP Dev, thanks for staying in the thread and dealing with these whiny people.
We are not whiny, we are complaining about changes that looks like the devs haven't thought all the way through and fear they will implement these changes without actual experience with the ship. We might appear to be whining because quite frankly i think you are an idiot. Thanks for your misinformed input.
Former SmashKill Coaliton Leader
WTB Leviathan. Hit me up ingame
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 01:12:00 -
[133]
Originally by: dastommy79
3. Carriers cant solo haul since the nerf years ago. They are impractical for keeping people supplied out in 00. Again your comments make you appear that you dont know what you are talking about. Also carriers need this corp hangar to allow themselves and other combat ships to refit and store mods they are using/will use/find.
Not being able to scoop to corp hangar or jettison from corp hangar isn't good at all... But it's not that big loss IMO... But still should be fixed...
And nerf wasn't years ago, it was 5 December 2007, like 20 monthes ago... =)
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Tommy Blue
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 01:51:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Trimutius III
And nerf wasn't years ago, it was 5 December 2007, like 20 monthes ago... =)
32 Actually.
I agree with dastycakes.
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Thorongil Telcontar
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:45:00 -
[135]
nope its 20, 32 months would be december 2006
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dastommy79
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:49:00 -
[136]
lol fine, just 4 months short of 2 years ago. I also want to appologize if i came off a little smacky in this thread. Years of caod will do this to a person.
Former SmashKill Coaliton Leader
WTB Leviathan. Hit me up ingame
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Tommy Blue
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 03:52:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Thorongil Telcontar
nope its 20, 32 months would be december 2006
Wow. Massive brain fart there. I thought that there were 24 months in a year 
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Lenid Kalkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.08.03 06:55:00 -
[138]
Will the code be smart enough to pull fuel from both bays at once to complete a jump or a siege cycle? For example, if a jump requires 5k topes and i have 4k in the fuel hangar and 1k in the cargo hold, will i be prompted to move stuff around, will the jump silently fail, or will the jump go through and pull some combination of fuel from the two hangars?
I still have doubts about CCP assurances that we'll never again need GSCs to force stront splits in lagged situations. But we'll see. Lag seems to be the one constant thing in large fleet fights (though kudos to ccp for scaling what a 'large' fleet fight has meant over time).
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Tairon Usaro
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 08:41:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Tairon Usaro on 03/08/2009 08:42:46
i appreciate how CCP Abathur is interacting with the people in this thread, but never the less, i would like to get a well thought dev blog elaborating the rational behind this nerf.
what does CCP think that needs a balance change?
Carrier spamming POS ?
Dreads being abused as haulers ?
Jumpfreighter carrying unlimited ammounts of their own fuel?
neither of these 3 questions i would score as a real issue
Rorquals being used as haulers ?
Well i do this myself, but i would understand, if this is considered an abuse. But wait a second, this is the only capital thats not getting a nerf hit .... acutally it gets 250.000 m3 for minerals in addition ....
So CCP please elaborate in blog what you want to achieve with this
________________________________________________
Some days i loose, some days the others win ... |
Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 08:57:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Tairon Usaro
Edited by: Tairon Usaro on 03/08/2009 08:42:46
Rorquals being used as haulers ?
Well i do this myself, but i would understand, if this is considered an abuse. But wait a second, this is the only capital thats not getting a nerf hit .... acutally it gets 250.000 m3 for minerals in addition ....
Rorqual doesn't get that space for minerals... I tested that, u can put only ore inside Ore bay... But still when u are coming from mining Ops it's really useful...
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Sophia Catellani
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Posted - 2009.08.03 10:45:00 -
[141]
i like the changes, in general its the right direction.
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Bozse
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:04:00 -
[142]
Originally by: HyperZerg
Interesting update but one Question that hasn't been answerd:
How to fit a Carrier/Mothership in Space without a Station? 4km¦ of Fitting doesn't get into 875m¦ Cargo :(
Maybe a fitting bay ? ^^
This needs to be adressed aswell, last i remember before i sold my super-cap was that the mods had to be in cargo to be fitted to the ship.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE is designed to be a dark and harsh world
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:58:00 -
[143]
Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to reply here, especially those who like to throw numbers around. What would be even more helpful though is getting some more feedback on how these changes are actually working on SiSi and if there are any problems we need to look into. Moving on...
Originally by: dastommy79
The tackle carrier is quite an effective weapon in a fleet fight. Useing a 100MWD you can almost double the ships speed and you can then lock down and tackle enemy carriers and dreads if all your dictors and support get chewed up.
Everyone knows that Titans are currently the only capital ships you are supposed to fit an MWD on. (obvious troll is obvious...)
Originally by: Haffrage
And a Super Mega Heavy-Watercooler for rorquals I guess, so the dreads and carriers have something to stand around and talk about crap at.
I have no idea what this means, but it's... interesting.
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Black Ops: I think 2K fuel bay should be what it gets. 1K seems just a little too small especially if you want more than 5 ppl in your fleet. But it is a step in the right direction.
I can certainly look into this, but feedback on Black Ops already has its own dedicated thread and it could do with some dedicated feedback now that the bays are implemented.
Originally by: HyperZerg
How to fit a Carrier/Mothership in Space without a Station? 4km¦ of Fitting doesn't get into 875m¦ Cargo :(
Carriers have never had 4k cargo and can still fit in space via the fitting screen by pulling modules from their corp hangars so long as they are within range of another a Starbase's Ship Maintenance Array or another ship with ship maintenance array capabilities.
Originally by: Lenid Kalkin
Will the code be smart enough to pull fuel from both bays at once to complete a jump or a siege cycle?
The code is live on SiSi for you to test. 
Originally by: dastommy79
I also want to appologize if i came off a little smacky in this thread. Years of caod will do this to a person.
Yes, that forum should have a warning of some kind on it.
Originally by: Tairon Usaro
Rorqual doesn't get that space for minerals... I tested that, u can put only ore inside Ore bay... But still when u are coming from mining Ops it's really useful...
Mmmmmmm..... Compressed Ore. 
One last bit on this fine Monday morning: even before this debate over 'bays', we were already looking into allowing people to scoop from space directly to their corp hangars. No promises right now, but we may eventually allow this.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 14:33:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Trimutius III on 03/08/2009 14:34:58
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Mmmmmmm..... Compressed Ore.
I was just maybe hair-spliting. I said no minerals and meant no minerals,... Compressed Ore is still Ore just have smaller volume... Compressed Ore isn't minerals, don't u think so? :)
P.S. You have messed up "Originally by" when quoted me...
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Oarta
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Posted - 2009.08.03 17:13:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Trimutius III
Edited by: Trimutius III on 03/08/2009 14:34:58
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Mmmmmmm..... Compressed Ore.
I was just maybe hair-spliting. I said no minerals and meant no minerals,... Compressed Ore is still Ore just have smaller volume... Compressed Ore isn't minerals, don't u think so? :)
P.S. You have messed up "Originally by" when quoted me...
For a Rorqual the ability to Store Ore rather than minerals is more efficient when you consider Compressed Ore can take up less room than the refined product. Also given its role and inability to process into minerals, I don't see why it would have mineral storage. When you get to that point of transport, pass it over to freighters.
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Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:27:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 03/08/2009 19:32:22
Originally by: Pallidum Treponema
How much fuel does a Black Ops use for jumping/bridging? I've never flown one, but I imagine that if it's to be used in any reasonable way, it needs to have sufficient fuelbay to do the job. I'd love to see some figures.
Well there is a thread explaining it in detail here.
Post nr.9 specifically.
But you have to keep in mind that some of the base values have changed. Basically the computations there assume a base consumption of 240 isotopes per lightyear (at jfc 4) which is no longer true due to a recent blackops buff. The base consumption amount used to be 400 but its 300 now which means 180/ly at jfc4.
As long as you take that into account the computations should still apply.
Now what does that mean? To jump a blackops over the full distance (assuming maxed skills now) would cost 4.5 ly * 150 isotopes/ly = 675 isotopes ~ 101m¦.
Now often you want to use the portal to bridge gangmates first. Given that you can bridge a cargo expanded, cargo rigged blockade runner (worth about 10000m¦ fuel) it is only really important if you can bridge your whole gang + yourself once. You can use the hauler fuel if you want to go back etc. Well at least thats my understanding it may depend on how you use the ships...
To make a long story short (see that link) maxed skills will make you need 27 isotopes ~ 4m¦ per lightyear and 1m kg mass. Assuming a roundabout mass of 14m kg per recon and 2m kg per stealthbomber this would translate to
1700 isotopes ~ 255m¦ for a max distance recon jump
243 isotopes ~ 36m¦ for a max distance sb jump
A blockade runner should be comparable to a recon iirc.
Don't forget that plates and mwd/ab do add mass and that caldari ships are fat.
So you could jump your blackops, the fuel hauler, 2 recons and about 6 sbs over 4.5ly in one go. Not bad at all for small gang combat.
Once you take into account that a blackops with portal generator has gimped fittings and should only be used as a bridge you can go ahead and cargo rig/expand it. It is my understanding from this thread that you can use fuel from both your cargo and fuelbay. So effectively that might double or triple the fuel you have and it starts to look peachy even for not so small gangs.
If you have several bops pilots its only getting better.
As for the numbers i am not sure if i have computed everything correctly, but it should give you an idea hopefully. If anyone knows better please share...
edit: to know what 4.5 ly are type in your home system, chose a blackops and set the skill to 5 and it'll show you all lowsec/nullsec systems in your range
icsc jumprange tool
--
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.03 19:33:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Oarta
For a Rorqual the ability to Store Ore rather than minerals is more efficient when you consider Compressed Ore can take up less room than the refined product. Also given its role and inability to process into minerals, I don't see why it would have mineral storage. When you get to that point of transport, pass it over to freighters.
It's neither here nor there. Any industrial operation that wants to compress ore would have to do like 11 freighter trips to lowsec to get enough ore to fill up a Rorqual's ore bay with compressed ore (let alone the pain that would be repeatedly docking and undocking to compress the ore). There are other, less painful, methods to compress minerals that are far more space-efficient, even if they can't use the Rorqual's hold.
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Vrenth
Gallente
Lightning Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.03 20:47:00 -
[148]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 03/08/2009 14:19:15
Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to reply here, especially those who like to throw numbers around. What would be even more helpful though is getting some more feedback on how these changes are actually working on SiSi and if there are any problems we need to look into. Moving on...
I did post feedback about how things are working on SiSi and the problems that need to be looked into... and instead of discussing them with me your arguing with these stupid ninnies. I wonder if your actually listening, or if your just replying to this thread to get your fill of forum trolling. 
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:05:00 -
[149]
Just checked one thing with Orca.
Why not allowing store Gases in Ore Bay? They are also harvested and would be useful in W-space when u use ur Orca...
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.08.03 21:25:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Vrenth
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Edited by: CCP Abathur on 03/08/2009 14:19:15
Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to reply here, especially those who like to throw numbers around. What would be even more helpful though is getting some more feedback on how these changes are actually working on SiSi and if there are any problems we need to look into. Moving on...
I did post feedback about how things are working on SiSi and the problems that need to be looked into... and instead of discussing them with me your arguing with these stupid ninnies. I wonder if your actually listening, or if your just replying to this thread to get your fill of forum trolling.
We are asking for feedback on both the concept and the mechanics. Many people, including yourself, are offering your thoughts on if things are too big or too small; that's being read and considered. We would also like to know if anyone has run into any problems with the functionality of these features.
Originally by: Trimutius III
Just checked one thing with Orca.
Why not allowing store Gases in Ore Bay? They are also harvested and would be useful in W-space when u use ur Orca...
We're already looking at the possibility of putting 'Gas Storage Bays' into certian ship types.
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