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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:34:00 -
[31]
Done some testing during the weekend, and found the following conclusions:
- High FPS does make the game feel more responsive and smooth
- Using VSYNC does make the game feel more smooth, but not 'quite' as responsive
- Vsync with graphics that doesn't fall under 60frames ever, is the best solution :)
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.08.03 12:44:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: EMPIRE TRAD3R
Stupid question but how do you disable VSync? I see no option(s).
Interval Default/Immediate = Vsync Off. Interval One/Higher (If possible) = Vsync on at various levels.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Jabezhane
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Posted - 2009.08.03 13:30:00 -
[33]
Have you been to the MS website and downloaded all the current DirectX updates?
Most folks never know about these.
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wickedpheonix
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:37:00 -
[34]
The vast majority of LCD monitors refresh at 60 Hz so they can't display any better than 60 FPS. The only reason to try and get a higher FPS is because FPS isn't a flat value, it fluctuates depending on what is being rendered, and to try to get 60+ FPS at all times.
The said, 130 FPS is pretty extreme. Bump up a few settings and enjoy the extra eye candy. Otherwise, go pay for one of those insane gaming rigs with triple SLI or something.
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Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2009.08.03 15:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: codemaster28
truth be told i doubt very much the human eye can tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps (with a decent monitor) .
General rule of thumb 1hz on your monitor = 1 fps , so if your able to do 60hz / 60 fps anything past this you are turning off v-sync which is never clever ( why produce the extra fps if you dont notice and risk tearing images ).
Try it see if you notice 60-100+ 
It depends on the game it self. Some quake pro players can notice the difference between 100fps and 125fps. In eve however, I doubt I'll make any difference.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Originally by: codemaster28
truth be told i doubt very much the human eye can tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps (with a decent monitor) .
General rule of thumb 1hz on your monitor = 1 fps , so if your able to do 60hz / 60 fps anything past this you are turning off v-sync which is never clever ( why produce the extra fps if you dont notice and risk tearing images ).
Try it see if you notice 60-100+
It depends on the game it self. Some quake pro players can notice the difference between 100fps and 125fps. In eve however, I doubt I'll make any difference.
Yeah, thats exactly my point.
However, I've come to the same conclusion. It doesn't look less smooth with 60 fps and vsync on, but the client is a little less responsive somehow compared to having 100+ fps.
Myth busted.. :)
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:24:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 07:25:10
Quote:
I'm well aware of this. However, if you have a client running at 150 fps, it looks and feels alot smoother than with 60.
I have such a laugh at people who actually think 120+ FPS "feels smoother" than 60 FPS on a monitor that can only display 60 frames per second.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 07:31:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Melanie Miss on 04/08/2009 07:31:44
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 07:25:10
Quote:
I'm well aware of this. However, if you have a client running at 150 fps, it looks and feels alot smoother than with 60.
I have such a laugh at people who actually think 120+ FPS "feels smoother" than 60 FPS on a monitor that can only display 60 frames per second.
Tell you what. Try playing Counter Strike or Quake with 60 fps and then with say 400 fps and let me know if the game feels more smooth :)
As for Eve, like I've been saying there isn't any difference I can notice. Maybe even better with vsync on.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 09:50:00 -
[39]
Please tell me you don't claim to be seeing frames that are never displayed on your screen.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 10:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Please tell me you don't claim to be seeing frames that are never displayed on your screen.
Nope.
Half-Life is an old engine is it's unfair to compare, but having 100+ fps in CS is considered a cheat, because there is a relation between fps and other aspects of the game engine.
In Eve, there might be a connection between fps performance and other aspects of the game engine. Neither of us knows this.
I'm not saying this will give me a great advantage, but it might lead to the game feeling more smooth.
It's also possible that using vsync free cpu time for other threads in the game engine so that overall performance is better.
Maybe I've just though this through a little more than you have...
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Sentient 'Entity
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Posted - 2009.08.04 11:04:00 -
[41]
Yep as someone mentioned the monitor specs have big impact on Fps as does screen resolution (smaller the better - 800 x 600) not just the components / G-card settings.
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 11:41:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 11:46:19
Originally by: Melanie Miss
Maybe I've just though this through a little more than you have...
or maybe you need to find a word to describe it better, because "smooth" isn't it.
In the gaming world, we use the term "smooth" to describe a sufficient amount of frames per second and its antonym "stutter" to describe insufficient frames per second.
I take it from your last post that the word you are looking for is "responsive".
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:09:00 -
[43]
obvious troll is obvious
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 12:32:04
Originally by: Melanie Miss
obvious troll is obvious
Rest assured I am merely trying to make sense of what you're saying.
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Othran
Lucky Sevens Corp
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Posted - 2009.08.04 12:53:00 -
[45]
The bottleneck is basically the server in conjunction with the Eve client being single-threaded.
Doubt it? Then go open up the in-game framerate counter and go on-grid in a few busy locations - try Rens top station, any of the gates in/out of Jita etc etc. Its fairly clear what happens isn't it?
Any of the desktop graphics cards currently being sold for around the Ç/$75-125 range are more than capable of dealing with Eve fleet battles given that you're zoomed way the hell out anyway. The FPS is adversely affected due to factors that a new graphics card probably won't help with. Eg - on a 50v50(ish) FW fight the other night my FPS went down to 8 - on a 4870 Single threading.......
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
For thermal reasons, I would still recommend to keep vsync activated so that your GPU don't process useless frames.
This is incorrect. If you have vsync enabled, your videocard still processes the frames.
Two very informative articles:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3591
http://www.techspot.com/blog/645/an-editorial-on-lcd-panel-quality-and-what-to-look-for-on-your-next-purchase/
In a nutshell:
Tearing occurs when visual data is sent from the buffer to the monitor, while the videocard is writing to the buffer. If the videocard is halfway through a write when the buffer is read, you get half of the new frame and half of the old one which hasn't been written over yet, resulting in tearing. Vsync adds a 2nd buffer behind the first, and it transfers the data from the back buffer to the front only when the frame is finished, and times it so the monitor will not read from the front buffer when you're swapping.
Quote:
While enabling vsync does fix tearing, it also sets the internal framerate of the game to, at most, the refresh rate of the monitor (typically 60Hz for most LCD panels). This can hurt performance even if the game doesn't run at 60 frames per second as there will still be artificial delays added to effect synchronization. Performance can be cut nearly in half cases where every frame takes just a little longer than 16.67 ms (1/60th of a second). In such a case, frame rate would drop to 30 FPS despite the fact that the game should run at just under 60 FPS.
-----
However, the videocard still writes as quickly to the back buffer as possible, so you're not cutting down the work it does. You're trading tearing for input lag.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Othran
The bottleneck is basically the server in conjunction with the Eve client being single-threaded.
Doubt it? Then go open up the in-game framerate counter and go on-grid in a few busy locations - try Rens top station, any of the gates in/out of Jita etc etc. Its fairly clear what happens isn't it?
Any of the desktop graphics cards currently being sold for around the Ç/$75-125 range are more than capable of dealing with Eve fleet battles given that you're zoomed way the hell out anyway. The FPS is adversely affected due to factors that a new graphics card probably won't help with. Eg - on a 50v50(ish) FW fight the other night my FPS went down to 8 - on a 4870 Single threading.......
You got a point there.
I seriously doubt though that the client is actually single-threaded, but there is probably a strong relation so that it causes horrible performance on the rendering thread when there is huge amount of data.
But like you said; A high-end GPU should deal with any graphics in Eve easily.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:11:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ecky X
However, the videocard still writes as quickly to the back buffer as possible, so you're not cutting down the work it does. You're trading tearing for input lag.
Good post!
So if I'm reading this correctly you're saying that not using vsync could make the client more responsive?
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:18:00 -
[49]
In short, yes, but it's minor. Vsync should be off in a shooter, though.
Food for thought: I recently replaced my hard drives with SSDs and I noticed a large improvement.
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 13:37:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ecky X
In short, yes, but it's minor. Vsync should be off in a shooter, though.
Food for thought: I recently replaced my hard drives with SSDs and I noticed a large improvement.
A large improvement on what? Could you be more specific please? I would suspect loading new models and textures to be faster?
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Draeklore
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:04:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Melanie Miss
Hi all,
Lately I've been trying to make Eve performance better on my computer (in terms of pure fps). I've seen some guides and such on the forum, but most of them are outdated.
I've tried to clock my CPU from 2.1GHz - 3.6GHz (new cpu fan ftw), but in terms of fps the difference isn't really that much. I find this odd, because I've always heard that Eve is very CPU dependant. When I look at task manager, I find that the client(s) are using somewhere around 10-30% of the cpu (spiking up and down).
Does anyone know what might be my bottleneck? Can Eve run at more than aprox 100-130 fps at all?
My performance especially drops when using two clients. The difference between windowed and fullscreen isnt much.
I'm considering doing a more in depth study on how CPU affect the fps, but first I'd like to ask you guys if you know anything about what effects Eve performance?
My current system is:
XFX nForce 680i SLI MB
2x OCZ Titanium Alpha 2048MB DDR2 PC8000KIT
XFX GeForce 8800GTS 580M 640MB
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz
NZXT ZERO (8 fans)
Running on Windows 7
Why would you need to run at more than 130 fps?
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Draeklore
Why would you need to run at more than 130 fps?
because he can see the difference even though it's never on the screen!
Fake edit: Okay now I'm trolling.
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Draeklore
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Melanie Miss
Edited by: Melanie Miss on 04/08/2009 07:31:44
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 07:25:10
Quote:
I'm well aware of this. However, if you have a client running at 150 fps, it looks and feels alot smoother than with 60.
I have such a laugh at people who actually think 120+ FPS "feels smoother" than 60 FPS on a monitor that can only display 60 frames per second.
Tell you what. Try playing Counter Strike or Quake with 60 fps and then with say 400 fps and let me know if the game feels more smooth :)
As for Eve, like I've been saying there isn't any difference I can notice. Maybe even better with vsync on.
He's right actually most LCD monitors can only display about 60fps max. The difference you're seeing is psychological or the 60fps machine has slow downs during gameplay which would make the argument void anyway.
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Draeklore
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:11:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
Originally by: Draeklore
Why would you need to run at more than 130 fps?
because he can see the difference even though it's never on the screen!
Fake edit: Okay now I'm trolling.
Maybe he created a new monitor with twice the refresh rate of a standard one!
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:16:00 -
[55]
For those that doesn't read well.
I'm sincerly sorry for using the word smooth when I probably should have written responsive
:)
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:17:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 04/08/2009 14:18:58
Originally by: Melanie Miss
For those that doesn't read well.
I'm sincerly sorry for using the word smooth when I probably should have written responsive
:)
I'm sorry, I was unable to derive that from your post.
Originally by: "Melanie Miss"
obvious troll is obvious
*chuckles*
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Melanie Miss
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:20:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Caelum Dominus
I'm sorry, I was unable to derive that from your post.
Originally by: "Melanie Miss"
obvious troll is obvious
Haha, turns out I'm not reading well.. I never posted that post did I ? :) hehe.. good stuff
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Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.08.04 14:25:00 -
[58]
oh well, it's all good. I will stop trolling you now.
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Ecky X
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Posted - 2009.08.04 15:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Melanie Miss
Originally by: Ecky X
In short, yes, but it's minor. Vsync should be off in a shooter, though.
Food for thought: I recently replaced my hard drives with SSDs and I noticed a large improvement.
A large improvement on what? Could you be more specific please? I would suspect loading new models and textures to be faster?
Before my SSDs, my client would often briefly pause when loading a new window or showing info on somebody, or coming onto a crowded grid. I always assumed the pauses were client/server lag, but most of them went away.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2009.08.04 15:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Melanie Miss
It doesn't look less smooth with 60 fps and vsync on, but the client is a little less responsive somehow compared to having 100+ fps.
Myth busted.. :)
Science, you're doing it wrong.
If you want to see if it really "feels" less "responsive somehow" then you need to put it to a real test. Have someone else adjust the frame rate randomly between 65 and 100+ fps and then play "blind" (without knowing what the frame rate is). Write down what you think the frame rate is and then check what it actually was. If you can consistently determine which frame rate you're getting merely from how responsive it "feels" then perhaps you're onto something. Otherwise you are probably just demonstrating what we already know, our expectations influence our perceptions.
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