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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: c0rn1 on 30/07/2009 12:35:01
Dear beloved CCP,
Why not reduce some of the reasons to metagame?
During the past few years you developed the game to a point where metagaming starts to be actually necessary to be able to conquer space or hurt an alliance significantly.
You may ask how you achieved that? Let me give you a few points:
=> Inventing Carriers
You switched the logistics for the regular pilot from moving ships around per pedes to jump from station to station to POS/station. No way to intercept anymore unless you wanna expose yourself to a POS and even there it's hard to get a carrier before he may enter Forcefield.
=> Introducing Titans on field with freighters.
Titan Jump Bridges combined with freighters were used to run logistics at that time. You alternated the way of logistics from a fleet covered freighter run, which is actually regularly interceptable by scouts, to a POS to POS jump.
=> Introducing Jump Bridges
You changed the way logistics were handled for the regular pilot by moving his assets around either by carrier or in his own territory via Jump bridge. So he is basically invulnerable by any regular tactical means ingame.
=> Bringing in Jump Freighters
Same problem as with carriers just even more cargohold.
So what is left as tactical option?
=> Destroy the strategically installed POSs
This takes an effort of at least 1 day, most of the time 2 days. Enough time for the users to either defend it or create a workaround by putting up another POS.
=> Fight at the POS
You have to expose your Fleet to the POS to be able to attack a logistical backbone. Even if you try this, success is very limited since he can quickly cover his butt underneath the Forcefield.
And here are the meta answers as tactical options:
=> Get the FF password.
Once you got the password, you can start to bump people out of it. You even got cover by a hostile forcefield so the guns won't shoot you.
=> Get a spy who can offline the POS
Once you can do that, you can hit strategical spots like this easily and further drive the enemy nuts.
=> Worst Case which we saw happen so far: Get a spy or volunteer who can disband the enemy alliance within 15 minutes.
That's the golden key to metagaming. If you can achieve that, every measurement to protect yourself as an alliance is burned to the ground. All SOV systems go to 0. All effort lost. Bone crushing.
Solutions for some problems to probably reduce the weight on metagaming it has in Eve at the moment:
=> The Forcefield is not to be entered by people with a standing < 0.1 to the owning corporation/alliance
=> Jump Bridges, as well as Cynosural Generator Arrays may only be anchored at Planets in systems where you have the appropriate SOV in.
=> If someone wants to kick corps out of an alliance, there has to be a majority vote of the directors in the executor corp lasting 24h. The only one who can kick a corp immediately would be the Executor CEO
These are just a few aspects how to reduce the amount of metagaming we have in Eve right now to an appropriate level and start bringing the fights away of the POSs. I don't have an issue with the spy in my fleet TS but I do have an issue that metagaming is the key to win a war in eve nowadays. No strategical or tactical effort can prevent, solve or counter a spy in your rows. And since I pay for Eve-Online I should be able to fight a war with ingame tools.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 12:39:00 -
[2]
Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn.
___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up.
Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 12:43:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Discrodia
Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn.
The problem is that in any corporation nowadays you have a directors board meeting to figure further way to go with your corporation. None of these directors is able to overrule a decision made by the full vote of the board, except the CEO of this company. Why should that be in eve different?
And like I said. I don't have a problem with the occasional spy in my fleets. Hell, if I know who it is, I can even use him. But I do not like the current direction in eve which installs spies as mandatory within the game.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 12:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Discrodia
Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game. While you have some good points, especially regarding POSes, anyone who gets Director status is fully in his rights to dissolve the alliance for either a) money / assets, b) a personal crusade, or c) a desire to see the world burn.
BS, if the best way to deal with something in game is metagaming, something is wrong. And normal corp/alliance security possiblities should be implemented. One director shouldnt be able to do what happened to bob (dunno if it is still possible, i thought it isnt anymore). POS's should work far more with standings (including alliance standings, not just corp standings). And for example introduce a container which you can configure to allow people with certain roles to take out a certain ammount of items per hour/day/week.
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Spirit Broker
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:54:00 -
[5]
When actions taken outside of game win wars inside of a game...something is very very wrong.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:58:00 -
[6]
EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
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Discrodia
Gallente
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 12:59:00 -
[7]
Okay, lemme rephrase what I said.
Spying, IMO, is not metagaming. That is what people do. You could also argue that API screening and screening people by SP and such is also metagaming. In the perfect world you wouldn't remove such things, but accept that they are there. In the real world spies steal all sorts of things, be it un-patented inventions, battle plans, ect ect ect.
I see no reason why such things could not be used in EVE online. The sapper who destroys fortifications, the thief who robs corps blind, the shady director who takes money from others for certain 'services', and of course the great puppetmasters who make them all dance are an integrel part of New Eden. Otherwise the endless capship stalemates would get nowhere, since without that tiniest tip that turns the scales and opens New Eden to the walls of wrath that are the alliances of today, only numbers would matter.
To respond to your comments on various POS structures, let me answer:
Attacking a carrier at a POS is as insane as attacking an Aircraft Carrier within spitting distance of guns and missiles that can turn you into an ungly stain almost instantly. You shouldn't try it, in other words.
As for Jump Bridges, if your enemy has invested the time to install a network of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing the same, so you're just whining since you don't wanna go through the expense.
Jump Freighters, it's the same thing as attacking a Merchant Mariner within range of a Naval Base.
While Sov has yet to be changed from the "Grab Moon-Profit" schematic, the rest of these complaints are things you should think a little more logically about, and if you can't beat the tactics, use them.
___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up.
Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 13:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Discrodia
Okay, lemme rephrase what I said.
Spying, IMO, is not metagaming. That is what people do. You could also argue that API screening and screening people by SP and such is also metagaming. In the perfect world you wouldn't remove such things, but accept that they are there. In the real world spies steal all sorts of things, be it un-patented inventions, battle plans, ect ect ect.
I see no reason why such things could not be used in EVE online. The sapper who destroys fortifications, the thief who robs corps blind, the shady director who takes money from others for certain 'services', and of course the great puppetmasters who make them all dance are an integrel part of New Eden. Otherwise the endless capship stalemates would get nowhere, since without that tiniest tip that turns the scales and opens New Eden to the walls of wrath that are the alliances of today, only numbers would matter.
To respond to your comments on various POS structures, let me answer:
Attacking a carrier at a POS is as insane as attacking an Aircraft Carrier within spitting distance of guns and missiles that can turn you into an ungly stain almost instantly. You shouldn't try it, in other words.
As for Jump Bridges, if your enemy has invested the time to install a network of them, there's nothing preventing you from doing the same, so you're just whining since you don't wanna go through the expense.
Jump Freighters, it's the same thing as attacking a Merchant Mariner within range of a Naval Base.
While Sov has yet to be changed from the "Grab Moon-Profit" schematic, the rest of these complaints are things you should think a little more logically about, and if you can't beat the tactics, use them.
What tactics should I use? there are none except metagaming to get a proper grip on the logistical backbone of an alliance. PvP in 0.0 went due to the removal of this to a consensual PvP. CCP wrote on their banners that there's risk vs reward. If you got 0.0 space you have reward but still should be risky. Well, Empire space is at the moment more risky concerning logistics than 0.0 since you can't open Cynofields there and the suicide gank still works to a certain degree.
Why ain't I be able to touch a 0.0 alliance in any way except at a POS? This game reduced the PvP in 0.0 to POSs and nothing more. and the only way to touch them in a short timeframe is via metagaming.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 13:10:00 -
[9]
If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out?
___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up.
Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 13:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Discrodia
If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out?
Exactly that's what I am talking about. It doesn't hurt. The risk is gone.
Cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 13:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Discrodia
If it hurts so much to be in 0.0, leave it? And sell whatever status you have on the way out?
Exactly that's what I am talking about. It doesn't hurt. The risk is gone.
Cheers
c0rn1
If it doesn't hurt why are you whining on the forums?
Because you're confusing me more than Mittani confused all of BoB.
___________________________________________
Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up.
Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 14:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Discrodia
If it doesn't hurt why are you whining on the forums?
Because you're confusing me more than Mittani confused all of BoB.
Because I want more violence. Open violence in 0.0. Not the metagaming type of violence.
I want the reason why we are here back.
Internet Spaceship pew pew
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Rhohan
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
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Posted - 2009.07.30 14:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
Yep, something wrong with that.
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Saka Mizuno
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:15:00 -
[14]
To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Look at what happened to BoB. They lost a staggering number of POSs (and isk) in the recent war.
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
However, it does sound like you just want an easier time ganking haulers. Maybe you should try an NPC region or FW?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 16:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Saka Mizuno
To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Look at what happened to BoB. They lost a staggering number of POSs (and isk) in the recent war.
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
However, it does sound like you just want an easier time ganking haulers. Maybe you should try an NPC region or FW?
Sorry, but the High-End moons easily come up with the reward necessary to get 0.0 space.
Right, look at what happened to BoB. The only way to remove them was metagame. One volunteer to remove the assets and everything of them within a few minutes and a couple pressed buttons. And it all came down to the POSs and SOV system.
If there's a war. the only buttons pressed should be f1-f8 and not only the disband, offlining or connect to hostile TS buttons.
Fireworks is what counts.
cheers
c0rn1
P.S.: And I take that one sentence as irony with the ore and production lines since a few highend moons pretty much give enough ISK within a month or two for a full scale war.
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 16:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Spurty on 30/07/2009 17:00:41
All of those logistic options are there to break the cruddy '1000 man gate camp' part of the game.
Seems to be working as intended.
Unless you have some fix *to prevent* sending us back to the dark ages *of* waiting for your blob to be bigger than theirs before you can move to the next system?
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails
i for one, like 8's that look like 9's lol
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Cassius Longinus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:02:00 -
[17]
You have a quality OP, however, I want to point out that for high value targets, POS are poor defenders.
Many people jump capitals to poorly setup travel POS's. You don't have to troll too many KB to see plenty of JF's which were downed at cyno's outside POS's.
Anyway, my point is that predictable jump logistics are vulnerable. Even at a POS.
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Teras Menac
Gallente
Caldari POS Constructions Inc.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 17:13:00 -
[18]
Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.30 17:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Teras Menac
Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
I never saw a spy disbanding The US of A for example. Or did I miss something?
"multi" is the key. Nowadays it's reduced to metagaming basically.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Stegas Tyrano
Gallente
GREY COUNCIL
THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2009.07.30 19:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
EVE Online, where unlocking a BPO takes majority vote but dissolving the alliance is a unilateral action completed in 15 minutes.
Butterfly effect indeed.
This.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.30 20:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Teras Menac
Spies win wars in real life too. I fail to see the problem here. You guys wanted a complex game with multi-tiered strategy didn't you?
If you like to make RL comparisons for internet spaceships online, then at least make one that makes sense. How often have you seen a country being disbanded (or a corporation) by a disgruntled director? Or look at a corporation/alliance dreadnaught fleet, make it so you can configure it for example that a normal member may take one per day, and without votes a director 20 (Just random numbers, it should be configurable). Not realistic according to you? More realistic than the current situation. I for one have never heard about an unhappy admiral of the US navy (comparable to a director for this failed comparison), who did ctrl+A and moved an entire fleet from the US navy to his personal hangar without anything the US navy could do to regain them.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.07.30 20:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Discrodia
Spying is the second oldest profesion. I don't think that should be changed just for 1 game.
While it is the that spying has and should have a part in Eve, it becomes bad if it is the ONLY viable option.
As c0rni already pointed out, CCP changed the game at many points so that - unless you make a huge effort - metagaming is the only reasonable option left. Reasonable concerning efforts and results.
CCP should think about this seriously.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.30 21:26:00 -
[23]
POS warfare sucks dirty dish water out of a cows ass.
Zero fun.
Max aggravation.
Pooh doo on POS warfare.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Reapers
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:01:00 -
[24]
CCP should just scrap the concept of POS warfare. Why on earth is soverignity linked to moon mining towers?
It destroyed the non-r64 moon mins market, since sov pos's that are not being attacked may as well mine any old crap and dump on the market to help pay for fuel.
Dunno why a NPC structure that someone puts up should require a few hundred people to take down in any sensible timespan.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.30 22:12:00 -
[25]
I think I see what he is getting at. I would love to see more brute pew pew instead of waiting for your spy to tell your fleet NOT to go and POS bashing instead of bashing the other alliances capitals.
________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Cre'tal
Eminent Disdain
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:08:00 -
[26]
I definitely see the OP point, but let me play devil's advocate here. How much fun would it be if moon-mining POSes were completely vulnerable all the time. There would be nobody in 0.0, because it would just be a giant meat-grinder. You set up an expensive POS, and the next day someone blows it up and sets up their POS. Then the next day that gets blown up. There would never be any POSes because it wouldn't be possible to keep them running for more than 10 minutes.
There needs to be some sort of SOV because once you've gotten the resources to set up to put up a POS, it should have some inherent protection. OTOH, they shouldn't be as "invulnerable" as they are now. There's got to be a middle position somewhere.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:43:00 -
[27]
Right ...
so if I get it right the beef is with logistics (the player definition, not CCP's definition which means remote repair) and the perceived invulnerability of this.
This packaged in a wrapper of metagaming being the perceived solution to not being able to attack logistics?
Well, heh.
First of all there is no such thing as safe logistics. It is extremely vulnerable, all it takes is a little teamwork and brainwork to deal seriously heavy blows. You will have to pick and choose your battles however, as with anything in EVE. You cannot expect with two guys to take out fat targets in defended environments, not without upping the ante substantially.
A good example of this is the recently introduced concept or tactic of "nyncing" someone. Introduced by a mad russian (who is really a very nice guy) it entails tackling a sweet but heavy target in a defended environment (like a pos) with a heavy interdictor and subsequently jumping in a suicide dreadnought. Demonstrated with lovely effects taking out jumpfreighter after jumpfreighter after jumpfreighter, and currently a tactic being mimicked all over the map.
Secondly there is no such thing as safe logistics. Yes, same as point one. Even for smaller groups with smaller budgets a little teamwork and good specialisation can ruin any big alliance's jumpbridge network with ease.
Cloaking Dictors, are a lovely thing. But you don't even need those if you do the math right for window of opportunity and dps. Bombers are truly vicious if properly used, and can operate around a well armed pos with relative ease. It does take experience, but that is a matter of a learning curve. Heck, a solid gang of RR BS or long range Hac's is very effective around a pos, especially with throwing in a noob alt or two for using pos scrambler cycle timers.
See, in older days we used to camp gates. We bored ourselves to hell and back, and went nuts when a noobscout showed up.
These days we camp jumpbridges. The good part is that people use them with even less thinking then they used to use gates.
The bad part is that you have to think about what you do.
You CAN take the route of spying as well, obviously, and to be honest this should be part of your methodology. Welcome to EVE. PVP consists for a big part of information management ya know.
But this is NOT metagaming. That is something which I believe has no place in game, or even out of game, but which is all too easily used (almost as an excuse) when people either have no clue or are too lazy to really do the work in order to get the kill.
The OP's viewpoints on tactics and methods is, I am sad to say, apparently very limited at this point. Maybe that comes from just not seeing options and methods, or adapting as EVE evolves. But that is no reason to start a whine on metagaming ...
Short version:
- think outside the (sand)box
- adapt and be creative
- think before you post.
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Faife
Divine Retribution
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.30 23:54:00 -
[28]
funny, ganking ships at jump beacons (OPs definition of safe) is the flavor of the month. jump freighters, carriers, hell even titans.
l2p tbh.
--
Check out my EVE cartoons |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2009.07.31 00:05:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 31/07/2009 00:08:27
Originally by: Saka Mizuno
To be a 0.0 alliance, the risk is still very, very significant.
Yes moving ships around in settled 0.0 is relative "safe". The risk isn't in moving around the ships but rather in attempting to settle 0.0 itself. Hundreds of billions of isk must be sunk into building and maintaining POSs and outposts. Those billions of isk just so we can refine a little bit of ore, maybe run a few production lines, and have a few safe places to be. Risk: billions of isk. Reward: a few safe places in 0.0.
Its bullcrap. The "risk" part of yours is a joke. You can live in 0.0 without any problem without POSes and conquerable stations. And its STILL safer than empire. I can jump freight to any system with ninja-cyno and logoffski/logonski before anyone can even aggro me. I can titan bridge around and noone can touch me. In empire you cant bridge around, you cant cyno around. Thus its way riskier to live in empire.
Quote:
So why shouldn't we have a little return on our investments?
Your whole "campaing" was covered with 1 month of POS mining. Yes thats how cheap the combat in eve is and thats how much moon mining gives. We were holding hiends for like month and we are STILL going on this isk and i guess we can still go on for a while. that is completly screwed up. Almost no risk (and moon mining is virtually zero risk) for insanely high rewards. Except for ocassional "nync" on jump freighter carrying dyspro (which happened like 3-5 times total in eve? whole 5 moons x 1 month of moon minerals?) its not possible to harass economy in 0.0. You can harass in empire much easier than in 0.0. Because logistics in empire are harder.
Originally by: Faife
funny, ganking ships at jump beacons (OPs definition of safe) is the flavor of the month. jump freighters, carriers, hell even titans.
l2p tbh.
yes and it had HUGE impact on gameplay and 0.0 logistics. Whole alliances died because you managed to cut off their jump bridge routes, amrite?
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS.
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:08:00 -
[30]
Excellent Post.
The reason POS warfare and SOV crap needs to exist is due to the 23 hour nature of the server. It is not reasonable to expect any given group of people to have full timezone coverage to defend their POS. Thus, POS's need to be difficult, mainly due to the time sink, to take down...giving the defenders a chance to organize.
Also, Things may not be ideal right now, but things were ALOT worse...there was an incredibly long age between introduction of POSes and SOV, and introduction of Dreads. Imagine taking down those POSes with just Battleships....this was also before logistic cruisers became good, and before Carriers as well.
I do agree there is a problem with metagaming...but that is mainly because people are lazy. A couple small changes, like the ones in the OP, and we can smooth things out nicely.
PS. Camping jump bridges and cyno gens is quite easy to do....in fact its probably now easier to kill freighters and the like...because where as before they were guarded and scouted...now they travel with false sense of security...and alone.
Originally by: CCP Whisper
No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Excellent Post.
The reason POS warfare and SOV crap needs to exist is due to the 23 hour nature of the server. It is not reasonable to expect any given group of people to have full timezone coverage to defend their POS. Thus, POS's need to be difficult, mainly due to the time sink, to take down...giving the defenders a chance to organize.
I agree with reinforced modes. They give a chance to defend. But i disagree with:
- connecting POS and sov system (should be separate sov-holders and normal POses)
- above would enable to make normal poses weaker and sov holders harder to take down
- AFK moon mining (make it active work which can be disrupted, same way as other resources gathering in game)
- having everything jumpable (limit ship types which can be moved via jump bridges)
- OR: put bridges/cyno gens away from pos (for example if pos is at moon, make them anchorable only on planets). Its ok to increase their HP then, but it makes another engagement spot possibility. Instead of having "i can jump faster than via gates and im safe" you get "i can jump faster than via gates" option. Still an advantage but not 99% safe anymore.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.31 00:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Excellent Post.
The reason POS warfare and SOV crap needs to exist is due to the 23 hour nature of the server. It is not reasonable to expect any given group of people to have full timezone coverage to defend their POS. Thus, POS's need to be difficult, mainly due to the time sink, to take down...giving the defenders a chance to organize.
Also, Things may not be ideal right now, but things were ALOT worse...there was an incredibly long age between introduction of POSes and SOV, and introduction of Dreads. Imagine taking down those POSes with just Battleships....this was also before logistic cruisers became good, and before Carriers as well.
I do agree there is a problem with metagaming...but that is mainly because people are lazy. A couple small changes, like the ones in the OP, and we can smooth things out nicely.
PS. Camping jump bridges and cyno gens is quite easy to do....in fact its probably now easier to kill freighters and the like...because where as before they were guarded and scouted...now they travel with false sense of security...and alone.
The problem is that you have to rely on stupidity to get the kill. If I move a jumpfreighter I can make a cyno 1k away of the FF. Considering this and checking if local is friendly I can easily be under the FF within 20s after the jump no matter who arrives there. Once I am there, my chances to get killed in the JF by regular means is zero.
Same with titans, carriers, dreads. If you got one ounce of awareness, you're invulnerable. I am not asking to remove Jump bridges but do logistics an alliance thing again. I still remember the freighter runs with a fleet to cover. was exciting. RAT pulled the logoffski -> logonski and our heart was pounding. With the current mechanics the adrenalin flow is 0 if you do logistics. And how many times did nync do it? 1? 2? that's a lottery game he does and some form of attrition since he suicides his ship. and taking the loot is another thing. because how do u want to empty the wreck of a hostile JF you killed at a POS without a huge effort of your side?
In empire, I scan an freighter, suicide and have the easiest gank with a high reward. Why being in 0.0 so kind to turn the risk to zero if a pilot acts a little bit smart?
I am not asking to remove POS. Prolly I would remind of the Sov Module Idea again. 3 max sov modules in a system. OR even invent SOV POSs which are only there to hold your sov. a maximum of 3 may be anchored at any given time. Bring the Jump Bridges away of POSs to planets. Even then you have a high safety with proper regular scouting but it reduces the need to work at a POS which increases the metagame again to gain the POS password to gain access and bump the freighter out.
All I am asking for is more pew pew in this game. and I mean serious pew pew. Non-consensual, sometimes bone breaking pew pew if you can actually gain a tactical advantage. Just widen the timeframe from 20s we got right now to like 3-5 minutes to be in safety.
Even stupidity provides you with some kills it still shouldn't be the base of actions as well as having to rely on metagaming which I do personally not condone.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
111010110
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:44:00 -
[33]
The OP is either not experienced enough, or too lazy, or stuck in some distant past it almost seems.
Inadaptating to new windows and means of opportunities as an excuse to throw inaptitude on metagaming? Come on :P
Seriously, there are so many easy ways to cripple 0.0 logistics, but they do take work and thought. As it should be, on that level. As for the cost element, it can be achieved on the cheap with relative ease.
Ultimately there's only a few bottlenecks for 0.0 really.
- the X64 imbalance
- player behaviour
That's it. Yes, CCP gave us a lot of complex and very often unreliable mechanics. But it has been us, not CCP, who have taken it to the extreme. Pretty much the only thing CCP should take blame for is coming up with something without designing it with a long term view on potential player (ab)use.
Everything else we have done to ourselves, collectively. 1200+ blobs to get a win without a fight? Spamming systems with a hundred pos to get a win without a fight? And this while claiming to want "good fights".
Sorry, capital and pos warfare is a knife which was not designed to last long, but it does cut on both ends, and we have willingly done a lot of work to abuse the knife for all sorts of crazy behaviour.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.07.31 00:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: c0rn1
I never saw a spy disbanding The US of A for example. Or did I miss something?
"multi" is the key. Nowadays it's reduced to metagaming basically.
Haargoth didn't disband BoB in the way you suggest. What he did was more comparable to, say, sabotaging some aircraft carriers. He could take away the strategic defenses, allow the enemies to have an easier time invading, but he couldn't defeat the alliance. Goonswarm and allies defeated BoB, Haargoth just made it easier. If BoB had really been as good as they thought they were, KenZoku would still hold Delve today.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.07.31 01:21:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
If BoB had really been as good as they thought they were, KenZoku would still hold Delve today.
Bob was never that good, they were just great in advertising and nurturing myths. Once the law of diminishing returns hit the ride was over. Not a great accomplishment on the battlefield, just one of stamina. Something bob never had, as they relied on the easy way and the advertising.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar
Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.07.31 01:42:00 -
[36]
You forgot to mention shared cyno alt networks?
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.31 02:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: 111010110
Seriously, there are so many easy ways to cripple 0.0 logistics, but they do take work and thought. As it should be, on that level. As for the cost element, it can be achieved on the cheap with relative ease.
Please name me one way to cripple 0.0 logistics not at a POS. And further please name me a way to cripple it even at a POS without a POS PW and considering the alliance does not act stupid?
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Discrodia
Gallente
Guardian Legion
SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 02:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: 111010110
Seriously, there are so many easy ways to cripple 0.0 logistics, but they do take work and thought. As it should be, on that level. As for the cost element, it can be achieved on the cheap with relative ease.
Please name me one way to cripple 0.0 logistics not at a POS. And further please name me a way to cripple it even at a POS without a POS PW and considering the alliance does not act stupid?
cheers
c0rn1
Killing their ratters? Destroying their outpost services?
Kill their POS guns and sack the place?
___________________________________________
I can see my house from here! It's just... err.... you know, a few galaxies over. But I swear it's there! |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.31 02:19:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Discrodia
Killing their ratters? Destroying their outpost services?
Kill their POS guns and sack the place?
Killing the Ratters with a cloak who warp off the moment you appear in local to a POS or safespot instantly? (except stupidity or laziness takes it's toll).
What does the Service have to do with logistics? Didn't see a Docking Service yet ... plus they got that much HP that you have to expose Capitals to it for basically no effect in the end.
If I kill the POS guns, they will most likely not jump the freighter to that POS. If they do, stupidity takes place again. They wait til local is clear or take another system as waypoint. Been there, done that. Easy deal. So far we had not 1 JF of us shut down even we use them pretty often :)
Like I said. If you take stupidity out of the equation you're invulnerable.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.31 02:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: c0rn1
Originally by: Discrodia
Killing their ratters? Destroying their outpost services?
Kill their POS guns and sack the place?
Killing the Ratters with a cloak who warp off the moment you appear in local to a POS or safespot instantly? (except stupidity or laziness takes it's toll).
So if they warp off and cloak once you enter system, what if you went in system, warped to a SS and cloaked, they would then stay cloaked and hiding in fear of you. And if you want, and if they are stupid enough, take out the ratters who think you arn't going to fight.
Either they die and lose a good bit of money, or they don't make any more money.
________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.07.31 03:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Discrodia
Killing their ratters? Destroying their outpost services?
Kill their POS guns and sack the place?
Neither cripples logistics. If ratter dies, really noone cares. He will get alliance funded ship (from moon mining, ofc dependant on alliance and ship class - usually reserved only for caps, sometimes battleships) - so all you hurt is personal wallet. And you can live in 0.0 alliance with almost nothing in wallet easily.
Killing POS guns doesnt cripple logistics either. You can cyno JF onto station and dock. Or just make cyno in safespot, jump there and insta-log off. Both tried, both safe. Plus even if you kill guns on one pos you suually have 10-50 other POSes in system the person can use for making cynos. Its faster to reinforce the pos itself rather than kill the guns tbh.
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Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
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Posted - 2009.07.31 03:35:00 -
[42]
Just so long as people can still do what that one guy did by changing the targeting settings of a POS' defences before offlining them (so half the friendly fleet got blown up when they turned them back on) I don't really care too much whether spying and infiltration is encouraged or discouraged.
=================================================
INTERNAUTS ARE GO! |
JamesTalon
Caldari
The Knights Templar
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vincenzo Delloro
Just so long as people can still do what that one guy did by changing the targeting settings of a POS' defences before offlining them (so half the friendly fleet got blown up when they turned them back on) I don't really care too much whether spying and infiltration is encouraged or discouraged.
Thats a pretty funny idea... The possibilities :)
"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day." - Robert Jordan |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
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Posted - 2009.07.31 04:48:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Discrodia
Spying, IMO, is not metagaming. That is what people do. You could also argue that API screening and screening people by SP and such is also metagaming. In the perfect world you wouldn't remove such things, but accept that they are there. In the real world spies steal all sorts of things, be it un-patented inventions, battle plans, ect ect ect.
I see no reason why such things could not be used in EVE online. The sapper who destroys fortifications, the thief who robs corps blind, the shady director who takes money from others for certain 'services', and of course the great puppetmasters who make them all dance are an integrel part of New Eden. Otherwise the endless capship stalemates would get nowhere, since without that tiniest tip that turns the scales and opens New Eden to the walls of wrath that are the alliances of today, only numbers would matter.
The problem is there is an imbalance between metagaming "attacks" and the defense you can use against these. There is no way to, for example, ban IPs from unlocking or changing your POSes. There is no way to set up an alliance so it can't be unilaterally disbanded, etc.
I don't think the problem is metagaming per se, just that there isn't enough offensive/defensive balance.
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CCP Edo
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Posted - 2009.07.31 06:22:00 -
[45]
thread moved to Features & Discussions. thank you. Edo
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.07.31 11:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest
So if they warp off and cloak once you enter system, what if you went in system, warped to a SS and cloaked, they would then stay cloaked and hiding in fear of you. And if you want, and if they are stupid enough, take out the ratters who think you arn't going to fight.
Either they die and lose a good bit of money, or they don't make any more money.
Problem is he will log off after a while, log on another alt. And tbh. The occasional ratter is not the backbone of the alliance anymore. the R64 moons still dig out a ****load of cash 24/7. So we are back at the POS again. And btw. how many cloaky alts do you want to commit to this? thousands? I think these are bad odds to just hit the private wallet of some people.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.07.31 12:47:00 -
[47]
The Op is correct. Jump drives, jump bridges, and even jump clones have had a detrimental impact on the game and should all be heavily nerfed or removed.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
KrautbreaK
|
Posted - 2009.07.31 17:20:00 -
[48]
Another Idea I just had would be to have a Cyno Jamming Ship. Basically a ship like the rorqual which has to be transformed into a stationary object. The cynojammer is an active module like a siege module which eats up a good amount of Liquid Ozone per 10 min cycle. So you could prevent reinforcements or logistics in a certain system and it would be some sort of cover if you have a capital op. You need to down the jammership first, then go with the hotdrop :)
That'd bring fleets to being useful again and alot of pew pew around them. Price should be around 300-400 million per ship. Capital class vessel with limited fitting options.
cheers
c0rn1
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
Life's a waste of time ... |
iP0D
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Posted - 2009.08.02 11:55:00 -
[49]
Originally by: c0rn1
more w(h)ine
I just have to ask, have you seriously every put some thought into matters, with a few people putting the brains together to work out scenarios and options? Cause sofar you come across as just another wannabee easy mode pvp'er who wants to log in and get explosions served on his plate without effort involved.
Come on. You're playing around in 0.0, the stakes are higher, the effort has to match that.
Get a nice team of bombers, and get on the test server to practice ganking rorquals and jumpfreighters as they come out of a bridge. Have one or two people experiment with cloaking dictors and the art of putting bubbles on both the target and the bridge. And this is all stuff on a budget.
Or you can do what everyone else does at the moment, copy the tactic of nyncing  As pointed out much earlier in this thread, but it seems you conveniently have missed every hint sofar in the thread which requires *effort*.
You're pretty much angry because these days you can't kill an organisation anymore by burning their space, no more massive amounts of ratters and miners ready for the ganking before breakfast, and forcing people to defend their stations around or shortly after dinnertime.
Well, yes, 0.0 has changed, quite a bit. But the simple fact that people have moved on to different places and methods for isk and resources is not the fault of sovereignty or related mechanisms. It's a trend which has come from simple human behaviour: money and lazyness.
So only the moon goo remains these days as a target selection to burn space, sucks, but doesn't change that it is very vulnerable. Sure it takes either a solid and concerted approach to destroy, but it takes only small to medium dedicated teams to seriously hamper. But, *effort*.
If you don't cut it on the level of the X64 blob, put some thought into where you do cut it, and put your focus there. There's no point in hitting the same wall over and over again Yeah, big imbalances, but when you really want to look at the fundamental causes .. you might be surprised. It's not the sov grind, or the big money which is the culprit of how it's gone overboard. It's everybody not wanting to take risk to get isk en masse, and making it in empire on level 3/4/5 missions, and a bit of CCP's fault for completely failing in reinforcing that trend.
Sisi fleet testing is coming up for Apocrypha 1.5, go get your guys and get them on the test server, do a little bit of thinking and planning, and have a go at ruining people's days in experimentation. You will be surprised how easy it is. But please, do a reality check on 0.0 space, the mindset of people in it and the trends that rule it.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.08.02 12:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: iP0D
Sisi fleet testing is coming up for Apocrypha 1.5, go get your guys and get them on the test server, do a little bit of thinking and planning, and have a go at ruining people's days in experimentation. You will be surprised how easy it is. But please, do a reality check on 0.0 space, the mindset of people in it and the trends that rule it.
I think you dont have reality check on 0.0. Go on sisi and try to disrupt any alliance logistics with bomber-ganks on bridges. Sure you might catch 1-2 idiots in freights/JFs and...? Thats one fish in a sea. And i guarantee that after those few kills you wont get them anymore but logistics will continue.
Result? you get some ganks (oh wow, ganks are sooo important) and thats it. No disruption at all, noone bothers.
Hitting moon miner POS? Go ahead hit it. You might reinforce it if you are lucky but you not gonna take it down with BS alone. Your post just contains lots of generalisation (heres how you kill jump freighters, heres how you can kill pos) but thats stuff which will only work vs smaller unaware (or just stupid) alliance. Except those dont exist anymore in 0.0 (ok some are still stupid, but i guess exception proves the rule).
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.02 19:30:00 -
[51]
Good post c0rn1.
I find it amusing all the alts and spies in this thread crying about some sensible suggestions to tighten up crappy mechanics. Sovreignty needs disassociating from POS, metagaming needs nerfing, and Corps and Alliances need more mechanics for their security.
Eve is as much about building empires as destroying them, except as it currently stands you get practically feck all (with the exception of ridiculously valuable R64 moons) for building a corporation/alliance, except notoriety and a bullseye painted on your back.
It is also too easy for individuals to wipe out months or years of work by many because of crappy or non-existant security mechanics for corporations and alliances. If the BoB disbanding doesn't prove this to CCP and motivate them to change it, then they don't care and are just cashing in until Eve dies.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.02 20:21:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: c0rn1
I never saw a spy disbanding The US of A for example. Or did I miss something?
"multi" is the key. Nowadays it's reduced to metagaming basically.
Haargoth didn't disband BoB in the way you suggest. What he did was more comparable to, say, sabotaging some aircraft carriers. He could take away the strategic defenses, allow the enemies to have an easier time invading, but he couldn't defeat the alliance. Goonswarm and allies defeated BoB, Haargoth just made it easier. If BoB had really been as good as they thought they were, KenZoku would still hold Delve today.
Call it equivalent to kill the President of the USA while at the same time disabling the NORAD and all NATO internal communications while at the same time blocking the weapons industrial lines and destroying part of the strategical reserves. That is what was done.
Cut all the jumpbridges, lost all the shipbuilding project requiring sovereignty with correspondent loss of materials, all the friendly status to be redone, plenty of stations becoming vulnerable or changing control to "friendly" alliances, loss of cynojammers.
Don't downgrade the effect of that maneuver.
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