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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.09 21:49:00 -
[1]
Well here's another of those 22 :P Atm I have about 150 lowlevel bpos and are putting out one sellorder each for those in one single outer region, so unless I've sold out of several items on a certain day I'm always over that 140-limit. I welcome and fully support this specialization for a lot of reasons given above by other people so don't give me any BS about being a whiner. What I do object to is the very low limit of 140 items when I'm fully trained. When someone is at the pinnacle of marketing skills (after whatever amount of training you deem necessary for balance purposes) they should at least be able to have one order out for each item imo. I can appreciate if you're trying to drive manufacturers into specializing in certain items but that specialization should lie in the productionpart of the chain. I.e. if you want that give us new skills for being more efficient in producing certain types of items or something along those lines. Once items are produced (or looted whatever) a fully trained marketer should be able to sell the stuff without being hindered by having 140 other items for sale.
So to sum it up the new skills are good but please introduce megawholesale and make it count. The current situation is like having the fighting-tree but limiting people to being able to use small guns and frigates. When you spend potentially months in a skilltree you want to be a badass battleship captain or marketing tycoon when you're done - not a frigatedweller or smalltime shopkeeper.
To answer some specific issues:
Yes you can come around the problem by using alts. But that's really circumventing the problem by going outside the game to spend extra time breaking the rules the game just put in place. If people are forced to do that it suggests the game is poorly designed and/or that the mechanisms preventing you from circumventing the rules this way aren't strong enough.
Yes I can probably sell more expensive things in tradechannels etc. and reserve my marketorders for a more basic sortiment (since it'd hardly pay to do the other way around :P )- but isn't the marketplace supposed to be the main place of commercial activity?
Someone suggested it's too much work to keep track of more then 140 orders. So in a time of interstellar travel, and whatever aids that may bring, people who presumably do this fulltime loose track of their inventory at fewer orders then I right now keep track of on my early 21 century computer in a game I'm playing in my sparetime? Or for that matter fewer items then my local tobaccoshop keeps track of manually? I understand this doesn't really belong to the subject but as an RP reason for the limit this just doesn't hold up very good ;)
I don't use buyorders but someone suggested that the removal of those would increase prices on basic items by removing an 'artificial floor'. How? Or were you just checking if we were awake? How can more items dumped at the market at a lower price increase the price? I'm sure you'll get a Nobel-price in economy for finding out that more supply equals higher prices (!). Please explain cause I'm dying to hear this.
Now I sounded too negative so let me once again reiterate - the changes are good - you just need to up the limit of 140 quite a bit and everything will be bloody near perfect. 
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.09 21:49:00 -
[2]
Well here's another of those 22 :P Atm I have about 150 lowlevel bpos and are putting out one sellorder each for those in one single outer region, so unless I've sold out of several items on a certain day I'm always over that 140-limit. I welcome and fully support this specialization for a lot of reasons given above by other people so don't give me any BS about being a whiner. What I do object to is the very low limit of 140 items when I'm fully trained. When someone is at the pinnacle of marketing skills (after whatever amount of training you deem necessary for balance purposes) they should at least be able to have one order out for each item imo. I can appreciate if you're trying to drive manufacturers into specializing in certain items but that specialization should lie in the productionpart of the chain. I.e. if you want that give us new skills for being more efficient in producing certain types of items or something along those lines. Once items are produced (or looted whatever) a fully trained marketer should be able to sell the stuff without being hindered by having 140 other items for sale.
So to sum it up the new skills are good but please introduce megawholesale and make it count. The current situation is like having the fighting-tree but limiting people to being able to use small guns and frigates. When you spend potentially months in a skilltree you want to be a badass battleship captain or marketing tycoon when you're done - not a frigatedweller or smalltime shopkeeper.
To answer some specific issues:
Yes you can come around the problem by using alts. But that's really circumventing the problem by going outside the game to spend extra time breaking the rules the game just put in place. If people are forced to do that it suggests the game is poorly designed and/or that the mechanisms preventing you from circumventing the rules this way aren't strong enough.
Yes I can probably sell more expensive things in tradechannels etc. and reserve my marketorders for a more basic sortiment (since it'd hardly pay to do the other way around :P )- but isn't the marketplace supposed to be the main place of commercial activity?
Someone suggested it's too much work to keep track of more then 140 orders. So in a time of interstellar travel, and whatever aids that may bring, people who presumably do this fulltime loose track of their inventory at fewer orders then I right now keep track of on my early 21 century computer in a game I'm playing in my sparetime? Or for that matter fewer items then my local tobaccoshop keeps track of manually? I understand this doesn't really belong to the subject but as an RP reason for the limit this just doesn't hold up very good ;)
I don't use buyorders but someone suggested that the removal of those would increase prices on basic items by removing an 'artificial floor'. How? Or were you just checking if we were awake? How can more items dumped at the market at a lower price increase the price? I'm sure you'll get a Nobel-price in economy for finding out that more supply equals higher prices (!). Please explain cause I'm dying to hear this.
Now I sounded too negative so let me once again reiterate - the changes are good - you just need to up the limit of 140 quite a bit and everything will be bloody near perfect.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 11:31:00 -
[3]
I agree with DeFood about everything but your post is just so absurd that I gotta put in a few additions:
 Originally by: Wren
No one was talking to each other about trade, it was all faceless and sterile.
Yeah that's the beauty of a real market - economists generally agree that the most efficient market in the real world is the international currency market, exactly because it's huge, faceless and sterile. It means stuff gets sold at the price where maximum combined satisfaction of producers and buyers occur. No matter what strange connections you got or not got. Which ties in to your second strange belief:
Originally by: Wren
Now you will see production companies emerge who produce a range of goods and can make a name with prices and availabilty. You will see corps producing goods not just for wholesale market, but for individual corps or alliances who will just arrive in indies and trade the ISK for goods and avoid the market tax.
Basically you're saying "let's make the economy medieval and hope things improve" - ('I know the village blacksmith so maybe he'll give me a good amount of iron for my pig'). Well that's not going to happen. Fewer suppliers = higher prices. As for availability - well what's more available then the market?? In your scenario people either spend a small amount of time chatting about and get to pay a higher price or spend a huge amount of time chatting and building connections and end up with the competitive price the market could've given them from the start without spending all that time talking. So what will happen in our medieval world is that you will get a worse price since the villagesmith is the only one supplying iron and you could've used that chattime breeding more pigs instead of haggling with him. Of course you have a point that huge corps might wanna buy huge quantities of something at once which they might have to do off-market - but that they can already do today and one thing is for sure - they aren't gonna get a better price because there's less competetion. Another thing you could argue is that in the real world there are no such faceless markets for industrial products such as ships - well that's because in the real world ships differ from each other so you have to sell your variety more directly. Stuff that's the same such as financial papers, utilities, basic agrary products and so on are traded on huge markets like the EVE one. So if that's the way you wanna go you should suggest they put in the ability to improve the stats of one's product to make them truly unique instead of making the trade of identical ones less efficient.
Originally by: Wren
[...]eats the ones not constantly on the look out for scams.
Well it is presumed you're an adult and not drunk so you won't sell cruisers for 0.01 isk. Still of course this is a problem - if nothing else it's annoying and an unnecessary strain on databases and some sort of tax seems in order to deter scammers. However as already explained by others the CCP solution doesn't seem to address buy-order scams and are dealing with sell-orderscams in a way that hurts legitimate sellers more then necessary by imposing a fixed ordernumber-limit that's far too low once you've maxed your skills. Your envisioned world with lots of face-to-face contact on the other hand actually opens up for more scams as DeFood explained.
Originally by: Wren
The market was being manipulated by multiple layers of orders to kill competition or hike prices.
This to the contrary increases marketefficiency - people who can't afford to pay a lot won't have to but can on the other hand not be sure to always get their stuff when they want to as there's less supply on their pricelevel. People who are willing to pay more get better availability. In fact it can be proven that it's only by utilizing an orderstructure such as this that a monopoly can come close (and in the perfect case equal) the efficiency of a free competitive market.
Now I've come off all doom and gloom here sounding very harsh but that's mostly since you managed to cram so very many preposterous ideas into only a few sentences. In fact noone can know what will happen with prices after Shiva - in addition to prices always fluctuating with the playerbase and what they feel like doing there's a lot of new stuff coming in Shiva that will shift the prices of the existing stuff - and finally miningbarges mean resources should become cheaper but on the other hand there's more resources to obtain which could offset that. So prices on items that exists now might increase, decrease or remain fixed - that's very hard to tell. What you can be certain of is that since there will be more limits on the market, contrary to your beliefs, the price will be higher and it will be harder to get certain items then it would've been without those regulations.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 11:31:00 -
[4]
I agree with DeFood about everything but your post is just so absurd that I gotta put in a few additions:
Originally by: Wren
No one was talking to each other about trade, it was all faceless and sterile.
Yeah that's the beauty of a real market - economists generally agree that the most efficient market in the real world is the international currency market, exactly because it's huge, faceless and sterile. It means stuff gets sold at the price where maximum combined satisfaction of producers and buyers occur. No matter what strange connections you got or not got. Which ties in to your second strange belief:
Originally by: Wren
Now you will see production companies emerge who produce a range of goods and can make a name with prices and availabilty. You will see corps producing goods not just for wholesale market, but for individual corps or alliances who will just arrive in indies and trade the ISK for goods and avoid the market tax.
Basically you're saying "let's make the economy medieval and hope things improve" - ('I know the village blacksmith so maybe he'll give me a good amount of iron for my pig'). Well that's not going to happen. Fewer suppliers = higher prices. As for availability - well what's more available then the market?? In your scenario people either spend a small amount of time chatting about and get to pay a higher price or spend a huge amount of time chatting and building connections and end up with the competitive price the market could've given them from the start without spending all that time talking. So what will happen in our medieval world is that you will get a worse price since the villagesmith is the only one supplying iron and you could've used that chattime breeding more pigs instead of haggling with him. Of course you have a point that huge corps might wanna buy huge quantities of something at once which they might have to do off-market - but that they can already do today and one thing is for sure - they aren't gonna get a better price because there's less competetion. Another thing you could argue is that in the real world there are no such faceless markets for industrial products such as ships - well that's because in the real world ships differ from each other so you have to sell your variety more directly. Stuff that's the same such as financial papers, utilities, basic agrary products and so on are traded on huge markets like the EVE one. So if that's the way you wanna go you should suggest they put in the ability to improve the stats of one's product to make them truly unique instead of making the trade of identical ones less efficient.
Originally by: Wren
[...]eats the ones not constantly on the look out for scams.
Well it is presumed you're an adult and not drunk so you won't sell cruisers for 0.01 isk. Still of course this is a problem - if nothing else it's annoying and an unnecessary strain on databases and some sort of tax seems in order to deter scammers. However as already explained by others the CCP solution doesn't seem to address buy-order scams and are dealing with sell-orderscams in a way that hurts legitimate sellers more then necessary by imposing a fixed ordernumber-limit that's far too low once you've maxed your skills. Your envisioned world with lots of face-to-face contact on the other hand actually opens up for more scams as DeFood explained.
Originally by: Wren
The market was being manipulated by multiple layers of orders to kill competition or hike prices.
This to the contrary increases marketefficiency - people who can't afford to pay a lot won't have to but can on the other hand not be sure to always get their stuff when they want to as there's less supply on their pricelevel. People who are willing to pay more get better availability. In fact it can be proven that it's only by utilizing an orderstructure such as this that a monopoly can come close (and in the perfect case equal) the efficiency of a free competitive market.
Now I've come off all doom and gloom here sounding very harsh but that's mostly since you managed to cram so very many preposterous ideas into only a few sentences. In fact noone can know what will happen with prices after Shiva - in addition to prices always fluctuating with the playerbase and what they feel like doing there's a lot of new stuff coming in Shiva that will shift the prices of the existing stuff - and finally miningbarges mean resources should become cheaper but on the other hand there's more resources to obtain which could offset that. So prices on items that exists now might increase, decrease or remain fixed - that's very hard to tell. What you can be certain of is that since there will be more limits on the market, contrary to your beliefs, the price will be higher and it will be harder to get certain items then it would've been without those regulations.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wren
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Your refrence to blacksmiths is way over the top.
Give it a chance before you sling all your crap on it.
What I'm saying is that before this limit on orders there will be x people who have more orders then that 140 limit. Those orders (let's say there's y such orders) will disappear with the changes even after those x people trained their salesskills to the max. Less orders means less items on the market = less availability of the least profitable items and less competition in others = higher prices. Now CCP (if I read Oveurs post correctly) basically says that they think that x and hence y are such small numbers that this priceincrease isn't going to be that big and if they are they'll possibly add additional skills that relax the regulations more. That is a logically valid position and the rest of this thread has been spent (mostly) discussing if that's right or wrong, i.e. how big an effect those regulations will have. Enter you. You claim that fewer orders means more availability and lower prices. That is an entirely different position that violates practically every economic law out there and can in no way, shape or form happen.
Furthermore you claim that it's a good thing we leave organized markets and start bartering corp-to-corp (and I guess individual to individual) and that that will improve availability and prices. Again that violates basic supply and demand laws. Unless people start using large amounts of time checking about for better prices - in which case we arrive at the marketprice we had before but having wasted lots of manhours looking for it.Hence my reference to blacksmiths - your face-to-face trading is what they had in medieval times and it's hugely inefficient and the move from such trading to faceless sterile markets is part of why the world is much better off today then it was then. I reckon by the time we go interstellar that development will have been taken even further - not backwards in time like you want it.
Now my crapslinging goes for your suggestions which are rubbish and makes no economic sense whatsoever. CCP:s are an entirely different bit which I mostly agree with and like. What I don't like is that low orderlimit once you're trained - I don't see why it shouldn't be possible for people to sell more items then that when some x number of us already do that. Especially as it will hurt other players in form of higher prices etc. How much so is what this discussion is about - so please leave your idea that it will somehow benefit the general population in the historic trashheap and join the real discussion.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 13:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Wren
I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Your refrence to blacksmiths is way over the top.
Give it a chance before you sling all your crap on it.
What I'm saying is that before this limit on orders there will be x people who have more orders then that 140 limit. Those orders (let's say there's y such orders) will disappear with the changes even after those x people trained their salesskills to the max. Less orders means less items on the market = less availability of the least profitable items and less competition in others = higher prices. Now CCP (if I read Oveurs post correctly) basically says that they think that x and hence y are such small numbers that this priceincrease isn't going to be that big and if they are they'll possibly add additional skills that relax the regulations more. That is a logically valid position and the rest of this thread has been spent (mostly) discussing if that's right or wrong, i.e. how big an effect those regulations will have. Enter you. You claim that fewer orders means more availability and lower prices. That is an entirely different position that violates practically every economic law out there and can in no way, shape or form happen.
Furthermore you claim that it's a good thing we leave organized markets and start bartering corp-to-corp (and I guess individual to individual) and that that will improve availability and prices. Again that violates basic supply and demand laws. Unless people start using large amounts of time checking about for better prices - in which case we arrive at the marketprice we had before but having wasted lots of manhours looking for it.Hence my reference to blacksmiths - your face-to-face trading is what they had in medieval times and it's hugely inefficient and the move from such trading to faceless sterile markets is part of why the world is much better off today then it was then. I reckon by the time we go interstellar that development will have been taken even further - not backwards in time like you want it.
Now my crapslinging goes for your suggestions which are rubbish and makes no economic sense whatsoever. CCP:s are an entirely different bit which I mostly agree with and like. What I don't like is that low orderlimit once you're trained - I don't see why it shouldn't be possible for people to sell more items then that when some x number of us already do that. Especially as it will hurt other players in form of higher prices etc. How much so is what this discussion is about - so please leave your idea that it will somehow benefit the general population in the historic trashheap and join the real discussion.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:00:00 -
[7]
They can Harisdrop? Wow that is *really* nice news 
Still it even more clearly shows we need a really good megawholesale skill.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 14:00:00 -
[8]
They can Harisdrop? Wow that is *really* nice news
Still it even more clearly shows we need a really good megawholesale skill.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 20:43:00 -
[9]
To break in with something completely different: when glancing over the posters on this page I can't help but wonder why the major trade in the galaxy seems mainly run by longhaired male Gallenteans - conspiracy anyone? 
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.11 20:43:00 -
[10]
To break in with something completely different: when glancing over the posters on this page I can't help but wonder why the major trade in the galaxy seems mainly run by longhaired male Gallenteans - conspiracy anyone?
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
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Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.13 12:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Severe McCald
With regard to the conspiracy theory. There is no conspiracy. Gallente men just spend a lot of time hiding in stations, so they have to do something with their time.
Yeah and after doing that for a while we own the universe and can send you Caldari on some made-up killmission to your no doubt well-deserved deaths  I only wish I could put thrusters on my station so I could move it along to see the explosion
More seriously:
Originally by: Severe McCald
With regard to the thread, couldn't CCP just limit buy orders? Scam sell orders are less of a problem anyway. What do you girls think?
Personally I'd be better off from this as I only use sellorders and like you think phony buyorders are a bigger problem then phony sellorders but I'm not so sure the buyers/traders would agree. Plus if it's the scams they want to get rid of it really isn't good enough to cover half of them - especially if you're gonna upset legitimate users with the changes that prevent that half. Since it strangely seems that (at least if this thread has understood the taxes properly) that's what they intend to do, though in reverse of your suggestion it begs the question what they're trying to accomplish here. Has anyone seen any offical remarks on this? If not I'd like to suggest a devblog on the subject (perhaps after Shiva when devs have more time), since they can't/won't answer in forums.
Because I honestly don't quite see why the limit is set as it is. And since Oveur is basically hinting that they don't think the cons of this is very bad since few people are touched by it it suggest they see an upside that justify that con. But he doesn't say what it is and I'd like to know. If it has something to do with databases we can just quit this discussion since noone of us (including drunkenmaster) knows how that looks so we'll just have to accept that devs solve it the best they can. If it's some kind of scamsolving - why limit orders like that? Taxes properly applied should solve the problem without any fixed max-ordernumbers. Which leaves the third option that they're trying to push or prepare ground for some other kind of gameplay change here and I fail to see what. In either case it would be very interesting to hear the official CCP reasoning on this - and in the two latter cases it would give us some better ground to found this discussion upon.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.13 12:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Severe McCald
With regard to the conspiracy theory. There is no conspiracy. Gallente men just spend a lot of time hiding in stations, so they have to do something with their time.
Yeah and after doing that for a while we own the universe and can send you Caldari on some made-up killmission to your no doubt well-deserved deaths I only wish I could put thrusters on my station so I could move it along to see the explosion
More seriously:
Originally by: Severe McCald
With regard to the thread, couldn't CCP just limit buy orders? Scam sell orders are less of a problem anyway. What do you girls think?
Personally I'd be better off from this as I only use sellorders and like you think phony buyorders are a bigger problem then phony sellorders but I'm not so sure the buyers/traders would agree. Plus if it's the scams they want to get rid of it really isn't good enough to cover half of them - especially if you're gonna upset legitimate users with the changes that prevent that half. Since it strangely seems that (at least if this thread has understood the taxes properly) that's what they intend to do, though in reverse of your suggestion it begs the question what they're trying to accomplish here. Has anyone seen any offical remarks on this? If not I'd like to suggest a devblog on the subject (perhaps after Shiva when devs have more time), since they can't/won't answer in forums.
Because I honestly don't quite see why the limit is set as it is. And since Oveur is basically hinting that they don't think the cons of this is very bad since few people are touched by it it suggest they see an upside that justify that con. But he doesn't say what it is and I'd like to know. If it has something to do with databases we can just quit this discussion since noone of us (including drunkenmaster) knows how that looks so we'll just have to accept that devs solve it the best they can. If it's some kind of scamsolving - why limit orders like that? Taxes properly applied should solve the problem without any fixed max-ordernumbers. Which leaves the third option that they're trying to push or prepare ground for some other kind of gameplay change here and I fail to see what. In either case it would be very interesting to hear the official CCP reasoning on this - and in the two latter cases it would give us some better ground to found this discussion upon.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.13 14:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zolcan
I just found this thread and I'm not in Shiva yet. Can someone please post what these new skills required are for selling in bulk? I have TRADE 4 right now but what else will I need to sell?
The tradeskills are already available on the mainserver Zolcan. They're not functional yet though - only there to allow us to train them in preparation of Shiva. So you can read up on them in the ordinary market. Regarding orders you start out with a max of 5 buy/sell orders (total that is). Then you get 4/level of trade +8/level of retail + 16/level of wholesale = 145 total when maxed out. Also be aware that wholesale cost around 35 million (where I've checked at least - anyone found it cheaper?) and several of the non-order related skills cost a bunch too so it's gonna cost you some isk if you want them all straight away. Hope this helped...
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.13 14:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zolcan
I just found this thread and I'm not in Shiva yet. Can someone please post what these new skills required are for selling in bulk? I have TRADE 4 right now but what else will I need to sell?
The tradeskills are already available on the mainserver Zolcan. They're not functional yet though - only there to allow us to train them in preparation of Shiva. So you can read up on them in the ordinary market. Regarding orders you start out with a max of 5 buy/sell orders (total that is). Then you get 4/level of trade +8/level of retail + 16/level of wholesale = 145 total when maxed out. Also be aware that wholesale cost around 35 million (where I've checked at least - anyone found it cheaper?) and several of the non-order related skills cost a bunch too so it's gonna cost you some isk if you want them all straight away. Hope this helped...
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.14 15:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: drunkenmaster
how does what you quoted have any relation to what you wrote? Other than to tell me how little you care, ofc. I was referring to the people who are saying the market is going to die because people won't be able to put in buy orders for 2-300 different types of low value NPC loot.
I think his point among others was (if it was not I'm making it now): though you're entirely correct that the changes won't affect 'your' region (on the buyorderside at least - perhaps there are sellers with many orders so it will be harder to buy stuff) they will effect a number of other regions for the worse since they appearantly *do* have such people that are lacking in your sector and they will give people less pay for their items or quit that business entirely. So it will hurt those sectors if not yours. Furthermore his point was that as it is today the possibility exists that someone discovers your region and starts buying your loot for more money then you're currently getting. That possibility will diminish or possibly disappear entirely with the changes.
So when we sum the situation up for all players the sum will be negative - we will be worse off then before the changes. That doesn't prohibit that some like you will be mostly unaffected and possibly some will even gain on it (say a producer who suddenly finds himself alone in his sector and can hike prices enough to cover the loss from the items he can no longer sell). But that will be outweighed by the loss most people will get in lower prices to sell their stuff for and higher prices to pay when they want to buy stuff, traders not being able to aggregate stuff as efficiently as before and producers not being able to fully cover the losses they incur from selling fewer items by hiking prices. How much worse off we , as a collective, will be is impossible to tell without access to the DB but unless they're introducing some unknown other changes we *will* be worse off (which is an entirely different thing then saying the market will die - of course it won't - it will just be in worse shape then before).
Now I fully understand that they make changes and one has to adapt but normally when changes are made they tell us why and so far they haven't on this issue so we have no way to know what the pros of this change are. It can't really be asked of us to be happy about a change when they don't give us any reasons to be so - so it would be bloody nice if they told us the reasons so we can weigh pros vs cons and have a real discussion. Because currently we're just discussing how bad the cons are.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.10.14 15:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: drunkenmaster
how does what you quoted have any relation to what you wrote? Other than to tell me how little you care, ofc. I was referring to the people who are saying the market is going to die because people won't be able to put in buy orders for 2-300 different types of low value NPC loot.
I think his point among others was (if it was not I'm making it now): though you're entirely correct that the changes won't affect 'your' region (on the buyorderside at least - perhaps there are sellers with many orders so it will be harder to buy stuff) they will effect a number of other regions for the worse since they appearantly *do* have such people that are lacking in your sector and they will give people less pay for their items or quit that business entirely. So it will hurt those sectors if not yours. Furthermore his point was that as it is today the possibility exists that someone discovers your region and starts buying your loot for more money then you're currently getting. That possibility will diminish or possibly disappear entirely with the changes.
So when we sum the situation up for all players the sum will be negative - we will be worse off then before the changes. That doesn't prohibit that some like you will be mostly unaffected and possibly some will even gain on it (say a producer who suddenly finds himself alone in his sector and can hike prices enough to cover the loss from the items he can no longer sell). But that will be outweighed by the loss most people will get in lower prices to sell their stuff for and higher prices to pay when they want to buy stuff, traders not being able to aggregate stuff as efficiently as before and producers not being able to fully cover the losses they incur from selling fewer items by hiking prices. How much worse off we , as a collective, will be is impossible to tell without access to the DB but unless they're introducing some unknown other changes we *will* be worse off (which is an entirely different thing then saying the market will die - of course it won't - it will just be in worse shape then before).
Now I fully understand that they make changes and one has to adapt but normally when changes are made they tell us why and so far they haven't on this issue so we have no way to know what the pros of this change are. It can't really be asked of us to be happy about a change when they don't give us any reasons to be so - so it would be bloody nice if they told us the reasons so we can weigh pros vs cons and have a real discussion. Because currently we're just discussing how bad the cons are.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.11.11 00:13:00 -
[17]
From the 8/11 patchnotes:
"Immediate orders are now exempt of broker's fee, and they are always possible regardless of current order count."
What the hell is 'immediate orders'? Does that mean putting up buy/sellorders in the very station you're in will stay like it is today and the new taxes, orderlimits and the tradeskills that effect them only apply to remote buy/sellorders? Any other idea what it can mean?
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.11.11 00:13:00 -
[18]
From the 8/11 patchnotes:
"Immediate orders are now exempt of broker's fee, and they are always possible regardless of current order count."
What the hell is 'immediate orders'? Does that mean putting up buy/sellorders in the very station you're in will stay like it is today and the new taxes, orderlimits and the tradeskills that effect them only apply to remote buy/sellorders? Any other idea what it can mean?
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.11.11 21:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: WhiteTiger
immediate means immediate, has nothing to do with remote. It means you buy something and it drops right into your hanger instantly. This is different than placing an order where you ask a price for an item and wait for someone to provide it at the price you asked for.
Yeah I know the difference but it says immediate 'orders' and when I buy or sell something directly it's not an order (exactly as you describe). So I was just wondering if they just were being sloppy with words here and not differentiating between orders and normal buys/sells (perhaps that's how both versions work internally so normal buy/sell was bugged before) or if they'd come up with some distinction between different kinds of orders as well.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
Delath
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Posted - 2004.11.11 21:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: WhiteTiger
immediate means immediate, has nothing to do with remote. It means you buy something and it drops right into your hanger instantly. This is different than placing an order where you ask a price for an item and wait for someone to provide it at the price you asked for.
Yeah I know the difference but it says immediate 'orders' and when I buy or sell something directly it's not an order (exactly as you describe). So I was just wondering if they just were being sloppy with words here and not differentiating between orders and normal buys/sells (perhaps that's how both versions work internally so normal buy/sell was bugged before) or if they'd come up with some distinction between different kinds of orders as well.
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"Real Men Hull Tank"
CCP Hammer |
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