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Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 08:28:00 - [1] Is anybody surprised by this?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 14:32:00 - [2] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Freedom does not necessarily imply that you are safe from the consequences of your actions. Begging your pardon madam but I do believe that the ability to speak ones mind without fear is essential to a free society. If you have to worry about masked men showing up every time you speak against popular opinion you're not exactly free are you?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 15:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Alica Wildfire Freedom does not mean you are free from consequences. What happened is wrong, but preventable. He didn't care about his security. Madam, the man was murdered for his beliefs. This is the damned definition of oppression. Freedom of speech is the damned cornerstone of a free society. Clearly the Republic is not a free society. Originally by: Alica Wildfire If I would go to an Amarr cathedral with the plan to excrement and vomit into the holy water bowl, I'd come with enough people that protect me from the consequences of this if I have any interest in surviving this provocation. Madam, doing that and speaking your mind are not the same thing. And if you were to do something like that in an Amarrian cathedral I can guarantee you would not be murdered by a masked mob. You would be taken away by the proper authorities. Originally by: Alica Wildfire I do not have the freedom to do this in Amarr society for the State itself would take care of me in a most lethal way. Desecration of sacred places is a crime everywhere. If you did the same at a shrine to the honored dead of the Minmatar Rebellion you would be arrested. And such a thing is not a capital offence in the Empireà but you would find yourself in a collar fairly quickly. Originally by: Alica Wildfire What he did was not much different, but our laws allow him to do this. But he had to take care of his safety. He could heven have asked for police protection from our Republic and we would have given it to him. But he did not. He was too proud for that. Too proud to prepare for the consequences of his doings. I call that stupid. ItÆs very different. One is a crime in a society without freedom. The other is TALKING in a free society. You cannot use the Empire as a tool for comparison in discussions about freedom. Not only are we not free we donÆt want to be free, freedom is detestable in the Empire. And while I agree that expecting or hoping for Minmatar not to murder is stupid, is this your idea of a free society? Freedom is requiring a private army to speak your mind? Originally by: Alica Wildfire He was too proud to ask us for help. For we -for him- are nothing but cattle. If he would have been thinking of Minmatar as equal people, equal to him, he would not have acted as if he was something above us. He would have asked for help. Especially after the burning of his cathedral. He did not. Pride. Isn't that a sin for an Amarr? Proud you say? Cattle you say? What he is guilty of is trusting his fellow Minmatar to do the right thing. He treated his brothers and sisters like equals and rational beings and paid the price. But you are dancing around the plain an obvious truth. A Minmatar was murdered by Minmatar in the Republic for having an unpopular opinion. The man did nothing wrong by your laws and was put to death. This is not freedom. ItÆs oppression of the worst kind.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 16:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Kletus Snoe IF the governement does a token investigation and makes no real effort to bring to justice those guilty then they might as well have killed him because by their actions they would be condoning it. I personally would love to believe the Matar people will take this opportunity to rise above hatred and stand for real freedom and justice. However my faith in our people is dashed whne I see the people that speak out here. The people that can olny hate and note look at building our people up, only tearing another down. We should put our efforts toward building up our people, growing our society. In this death Jarek may actually become a Matar hero because his death may be the proof that we as a society will not tolerate hate in any form and will support freedom in every form. Please note I have edited the hate from your speech. Consider editing the hate from your heart. Your society is crumbling. The Republic descends further and further into chaos everyday. You make murders into heroes and men of peace into traitors. Violence, hatred and death will be the legacy of the Republic. Matari like you who try to lift up your people and preach justice, order and tolerance may still save the Republic. But I have to wonder how long before your masked brothers come for you?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 17:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Alica Wildfire Of cause our police investigates the murder. Of cause to slay a man for whatever reason is a crime in the Republic and will be punished. Even your own people arenÆt convinced of this in this case. Originally by: Alica Wildfire But to call the existence of crime in a society the absence of freedom is just showing me that the Amarr are still far away from any faint grasp what freedom is. And what we are fighting for. What they have taken from us from so long. This statement might be true were this murder some isolated or random incident, but it is not. It is indicative of the sickness that taints the Republic and Matari hearts. In my first post I asked if anybody was surprised. Nobody said yes. We all knew what was going to happen to this man. We all knew his own people would kill him because thatÆs how hateful and oppressive the Republic is. And we know exactly what freedom is, thatÆs why we reject it. Originally by: Alica Wildfire If you ask me: this is the big mistake and oblivious state of mind that will bring down the Empire. They simply have no idea what we are talking about. Incredible. Unbelievable. The fact that you keep missing the point and seem completely unable to grasp the deeper meaning behind this incident yet accuse others of being clueless is truly incredible and unbelievable. Originally by: Alica Wildfire Is there anything to expect to come from Amarr about important issues that are not drained with lies, propaganda, are distorted and lack of any reason? Important issue? You are the one that continues to play this off as no big deal. Originally by: Alica Wildfire So a stupid acting priest that was on one hand provoking the people on the other hand not taking care about a minimum security is a matyr? Then I think Amarr is full of this and if a matyr can win a war about freedom and respect then Amarr undoubly will win. But I don't think so. Matyrs just die silly little deaths and the only that are impressed by the stupid are those who are so stupid to follow the stupid. Right, because you super smart Minmatar never turn your dead into martyrs. Yup, thereÆs not a single shrine or monument to the honored dead in all of the Republic. Originally by: Alica Wildfire Stupid society will be washed away by history. If there ever was a fact, then this one. Ignorance is doom. Agreed. Originally by: Alica Wildfire But I don't want to talk bad about dead people. Way too late for that Madam. YouÆve already called your brother stupid multiple times in multiple posts. Originally by: Alica Wildfire I just say that this death was unnecessary. And that it is just a death that finds an echo in generations of Minmatar slain and suffering under the Amarr slavery. You think our people forget the past? They will never. And as long as the Amarr act this ignorant to the value of freedom and proclaim the absence of freedom for Minmatar Republic by anything from "the guy in the bar hit me, just because I called him an idiot" to this case of murder we really can't take that serious. Again you try to play this off like an isolated incident. It is a symptom of a greater disease. A nose bleed is no big deal on itÆs own but in this case itÆs pointing straight to a brain tumor and a fatal one at that. And in almost the same breath you start waving the slavery banner. ôSure we killed a Minmatar but lots of Minmatar get killedö is a ** excuse. Nice try though. Originally by:** Alica Wildfire Proclaim this and living in a slavery state. This I call an interesting state of mind. I know some psychatrist that would be most intrested to get some of those individuals in their hand and study this case of loss of reality due to religious and political indoctrination. ::rubs temples:: When someone from a society with absolutely no freedom or rights is stunned by how oppressive your society is it may be taken as a clue that itÆs time for some introspection. Try to see the implications and deeper meaning of this. A Minmatar was killed in the Republic by Minmatar for speaking his mind and heart. And everybody bloody knew it would happen! Did you ever consider that the reason he had no security was because he knew that short of an army there was no way he would survive and didnÆt want Minmatar police to die with him?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 18:16:00 - [6] Originally by: Sky Grunthor Your bias predisposes your outcome. He was murdered because the Republic is hateful and oppressive? Not because he taught that we should be slaves, under the oppression of the Amarr by choice? Who would have guessed you would hold such a view... Fair statement. But were you surprised?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 18:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Sky Grunthor No, but you have just destroyed your own legitimacy on this subject, so my purpose is accomplished. Have a nice day. While I admit that my bias may have made me see the outcome doesn't the outcome validate my possible bias?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.01 18:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Sky Grunthor No it doesn't. It doesn't because such an outcome could come from a myriad of ways and at this time to automatically assume only one way would be preposterous. Your apparent unwillingness to see or accept those other ways and instead insist on your one view of the matter is self-blinding at the minimum. However, your view is unreasonable. It is too broad and inclusive and too... contrary to evidence to have any foundation in fact or truth. I'm having some trouble understanding exactly what you are trying to say. Could you please clarify?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.02 21:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Alica Wildfire Martyrdom is just a primitive form of deathcult. The Minmatar have as many if not more martyrs than Amarr. I wonder what your elders would think about you spitting on your ancestors and honored dead? Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri I am glad that you agree that the Matari Republic has now sunk to the level where it is comparable to the blood raiders. Begging your pardon but the Republic is not anywhere near as bad as the Blooders. But sadly we have seen numerous indications that this is the direction the Republic is heading. The indifference to human life seems to be growing out of control. The kindest eulogy we seem to be able to get for the life of this dead Minmatar is a ôtoo bad heÆs dead but he had it coming.ö And once the lives of others has lost all meaning it is a short jump to painting your ships in blood and eating babies.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.03 22:32:00 - [10] Originally by: Sky Grunthor I don't believe you can correctly compare the indifference to life in general and the indifference to the life of a slaver or slaver supporter. The man in question was neither. Were this an isolated incident my comments on the situation would be alarmist to say the least. But this is not the first time a news story about dead Minmatar was treated so coldly by Minmatar. Originally by: Sky Grunthor In truth, it is the Amarr culture and slavers in general who have the indifference to any kind of life but their own comfort and own supremacy. Amarrians value human life more than anyone. I know thatÆs hard to see from your position but itÆs true. We donÆt want the Minmatar to die. We want the Minmatar to join us as equals. There are those that wish the Minmatar would all die. There are slavers that care more about credits and power than the enlightenment of others. For me to say otherwise would be disingenuous. But they are the minority. The overwhelming majority of us dream only of a universe united in peace and equality. But again, I know how hard that must be to see. Originally by: Sky Grunthor Is it any surprise that a cult such as the blood raiders could arise from such a culture. The Blood Raiders are everything we Amarrians stand against. They are in effect a mirror image of us. They are exactly as evil was we are good. So perhaps you are correct in saying that they could only have come from us. Originally by: Sky Grunthor Keep calling white black and black white. I call things as I see them, as any honest man does. Originally by: Sky Grunthor Free your slaves, renounce your support of slavery and then I'll support you. Doneà for the most part. I joined the abolitionist movement while still in the Academy. And while I do own several thousand slaves they are all willing, paid slaves whose children are born free, so itÆs not quite the same thing. And if any of them ever said they wanted to go back to the Federation IÆd hand them an Interbus ticket and wish them well. Originally by: Sky Grunthor If they had not stolen the life of another, then I would hold their life dearly to my heart. Who did this man ever harm? He wasnÆt a slaver. He wasnÆt trying to get his brothers to enslave themselves. He wasnÆt a warrior or terrorist. He was just an old man speaking his heart and he was murdered while defending his brothers. His courage, selflessness and compassion will live on.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 03:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Sky Grunthor Quote: Since arriving on Matar some days ago the æSalvation Crusade,Æ û led by Abel Jarek, a cleric of the Salvation Church of Blessed Servitude, a slave-based branch of the Amarrian Church û has attracted deep hostility among Minmatar citizens, particularly in the refugee camps where the æcrusadersÆ (as they are referred to by the citizenry) have made it their business to preach. From a 2.28 of this year news release. Bold mine. Well Mr Akala beat me to the punch on this. And he was exactly right. Abel JarekÆs order is made up of slaves and former slaves, not made up of slavers. Originally by: Sky Grunthor Argue all you want, in the end, his preachings is that of the slavers. He was not guiltless. To claim otherwise is foolish. Peaceable man? No, I dare not say he was a peaceable man. Argue all you want, how he died is the clearest evidence of his character. If he was anywhere near as bad as you like to think he would not have died defending one of his followers. Is that common slaver behavior you think? Originally by: Sky Grunthor He believed and preached in the Amarrian god and, according to the Amarr, the rightful place of Minmatar as subservient, as slaves to the Amarr. According to the Amarr? No. That statement is according to Minmatar and Gallente propaganda. The goal of the Amarr faith is that all should be equal and stand united as brothers and sisters. Slavery is a tool to that end and has been used to varying degrees of success. But slavery is not part of the actual religion. Originally by: Sky Grunthor There are several reports where this can be gleaned. However if you wish to blind yourself behind the soft words of this slave who sadly fell to the tyrannical thought of his masters, then go ahead. Blind myself behind soft words? Is this poetry? Laughable. The man did not fall to anything but the crude weapons of barbarians. WhatÆs next from the Republic? Are we going to hear about masked men beating the last of the Starkmanir to death because they still follow the Amarrian faith? ****ing Republic, you keep yapping on about freeing the slaves and when they are freed(kidnapped) you lock them up in refugee camps or beat them to death and say they had it coming. IÆve worked my whole adult life for abolition. But every time I try to make an argument for it my opponents just hold up any recent news story from the Republic and shut me right down. Fighting for freedom is not fighting the Amarr, itÆs fighting the Republic.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 06:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Gottii Originally by: Garst Tyrell Another martyr in paradise. I envy him. No need to envy him, Im sure we could arrange for you to join him... Zing!
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Alica Wildfire Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 05/08/2009 08:56:08 I have the impression that members of PIE Inc. do openly admire acts of matyrism? I offer you to kill you softly and painful on a spot somewhere in Minmatar highsec. If senseless death is the thing you strive for, I can really give you a helpin' hand, chums. I make lots of martyrs of you if you really like. See it as a kind of social service I am willing to give away for free to every Amarr that really wants to meet his god as a martyr, slain like a sheep by an enemy of his Empire. Isn't that a thing to strive for, eh?! You even have not to pay the expenses of ammo I use. And this is the moment your martyrism becomes victory! You let me kill you so often until I'm broke from the costs of my ammo and desperately try to hang me on the top of my Stilettocabin - at zero gravity. Ah - the Amarr, I love them. If we killed all of their warriors and loyalists we will find out that nobody is left worth killing. ALICA WILDFIRE MARTYR SERVICES - THE FREE GATE TO HEAVEN Gottii's version was funnier.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Freedom of speech only goes so far - and I know many Gallenteans and their friends will now be shocked. But do hear me out. "Just expressing an opinion" is different from trying to form a cult that aims at enslaving the free tribes. I seem to recall a rather aggressive Blood Raider recruitment drive in Gallente space headed by an empty headed little pop star. I forget, was she beaten to death by men in masks? Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Words can be a weapon, too. When they are used as such, you enter a war. Really? Words are an adequate justification for war? That seems rather extremist. Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon To "peacefully follow the Amarrian faith" is a contradiction. The faith has as its integral part the creed that enslaving other tribes and clans is a desirable, virtuous thing. If you decry that part, you are not following the Amarrian faith, but some other religion, closely related. Not only is this total crap but highly offensive. I think perhaps youÆve been paying too much attention to fringe Amarrian extremists. Slavery is not part of the religion. ItÆs political policy. And itÆs popularity as a means of enlightening other races has been on a steep decline for years. Even the hardest of the hardliners will admit to this. Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon If you accept that part, you are part of a cult seeking to enslave my people, and yes, I advocate the persecution of members of such a cult. There has never been even the slightest hint that this man was attempting to enslave anybody.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Kletus Snoe [Pretty but impractical words.] Spoken like a true Gallentean. Elsebeth Way to avoid addressing his arguments. Typical Tribal, anybody that doesn't want the total extermination of all things Amarrian isn't a real Minmatar eh?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:36:00 - [16] Does the Amarrian abolitionist movement scare you that much Ms Rhiannon?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:16:00 - [17] Edited by: Mr Reeth on 05/08/2009 13:16:02 Originally by: Kletus Snoe So because I believe the Matar people can be more that a group of thugs filled with hate and no greater dream than the death of others, becuase I believe we are a great society waiting our chance to step into the light you choose to insult me? If we are going to create a society based with less freedoms then so be it but do not expouse how free we want everyone to be while we oppress opinions other than our own, THAT is Gallente. Do not put the entire focus of our people of fighting for the defeate of another because of past actions, that is Caldari! Do not stand with a feeling or moral superiority that makes you think only you can have the right answer, that is Amarrian. You would choose to insult me when I say we need to take care of the paths we choose lest we become that we fear. Yet at the same time you turn a blind eye to the people in our culture, so many that are so outspoken that have embraced everything but being Matar. When the Matar race falls and it will if we do not find our own path, it will not be because the Amarr destroyed us. It will not be because Gallente philosophies smnothered us nor will it be Caldari economic domination. It will be because we choose hate to base our entire existence upon hate of another instead of building ourselves. How long will your resolve to better your people last? Do you think that if you swim upstream hard enough you can change the direction of the stream?
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.06 12:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Poreuomai I find the Amarr crying about freedom of religion and speech rather bizarre. ItÆs surreal isnÆt it. I suppose itÆs due to Amarrians falling into their natural role as leaders and teachers. The desire to correct the mistake of those around is almost irresistible, even if the ones making mistakes are hated enemies. I recall an Amarrian pilot once giving advise to a dispatched foe on how he could have better fit his Rifter. Originally by: Poreuomai Would a Blood Raider be welcome to run a peaceful church of blood donors on Amarr - persuading the local population that they are little more than sacks of red juice and should give themselves over to the raiders? Your analogy is flawed. A better analogy would be a Sani Sucker preaching on Amarr like they do in Gallente space. The result would be the same either way though, a quick and merciful deathà after an extensive interview process. But is the Amarrian standard of freedom acceptable to you in the Republic? Do you really want our idea of freedom to be the benchmark against which you judge your government? Like I said before; when people with no freedom are shocked by your lack of freedom itÆs time for some introspection.

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