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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.04 20:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 04/08/2009 20:06:31
Generally it breaks down into support or damage. Damage takes isk, experience (play time), and skills. Support can be done with less of the above.
There are group buffs known as warfare links. Same issue as with damage. Logistics are much of the same. It can be effective later but not so starting out.
Starting roles are usually straight up tackler or a specific debuf (ecm/sensor dampener). You can't do much well so the idea is to do one thing well. Don't fit out a ship to do multiple things. Think of a very specific role and outfit for that in mind.
Tacklers can be skill intensive but starting out isn't bad. Take a small fast cheap frig, put a disrupter, and go catch something for the others to kill. You'll die a lot but you'll learn much also.
The next common area is ecm. Blackbird for example can be very effective for a few mil isk. It'll up the ante in how many want to kill you. The goal here is to be as annoying as possible to the hostiles.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.04 20:54:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Tidus LeChance
the Logistics ships though, sounds like a good place to start in terms of the physical platform itself.
Logistics are t2 which means they're expensive, somewhat difficult to fly properly, and skill intensive. Maybe 6months+ training, 100mil for ship + fittings. No real insurance so if you die you lose it all.
The tier 1 option would be an opsrey/exqueror which aren't as effective but easier to get into. The t1 stuff won't be as effective except helping out small ships. However you can start within a few weeks, and it'll cost maybe 5-6mil per ship. Insurance and t1 fittings means you get most of the isk back when it goes pop.
So this is why tacklers etc are a good first start. Get into the fastest frig you can find, train for microwarp drive and some navigation skills for speed, then train for the disrupter/scram.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.04 21:23:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tidus LeChance
but more of a "Attack AND support"
Yes. Less of being a pious priest and more about throwing dirt into their eyes and hamstringing them.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.04 23:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Logistics ships are extremely good in PvP and certainly have a larger effect than a T1 ewar cruiser (especially a lolicose).
Not really. t2 logistics require a fair bit of isk and skill to pull off, neither of which someone new will have. A t1 logistics (ie osprey) isn't entirely useful in pvp due to the lack of cap, resists, and amount repped. Plus it requires a fair bit of coordination and awareness to use.
A blackbird can take a hostile bs out of the fight or break a tackle. Blackbirds work. There was a reason why everyone was running around with a falcon alt and not a guardian/baskilisk alt.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
I'd say that tackling is usually not the best route for T1 frigates (you tend to die fast and not learn much), but the ewar frigates are very nice for learning PvP.
That means flying a Griffin. Not everyone is ready to cross train in the first week.
Usually better to just get someone into a tackler as all of the skills will be useful later. If you die fast in a tackler you still probably got something done.
It'll take them a while to learn the basics either way.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.05 05:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Guardian > Curse/Pilgrim
Basilisk > Rook/Falcon
Scimitiar >Huginn/Rapier
Oneiros < Lachesis/Arazu
Um, no. Lets break this down. Say we have a blackbird/falcon. The pilot has a rough idea of what to jam in what order. Jump in, lock up hostiles, match types, stay alive. Fairly simple. Scales well.
So compare this with logistics. The t1 type have to be fairly close and they're slow. They'll be dead first. The t2 stuff has some limitations. You have to wait for a friendly to take damage to be useful and you need to be coordinated.
In a large bs gang the friendly can take enough damage to be dead by the time you lock. You won't get enough rep cycles to be useful. Plus you'll probably need to be in a guardian or oneiros which means you're slow and won't be able to use range/speed as a defense. Even a blackbird can warp in, start to jam up targets (like hostile logistics) with minimal coordination. ECM can scale better for large fights.
In medium fights logistics can be useful. It'll still be jammed first and probably be primary again. Mobility is the key here. Scimitar + hacs works great here. Doesn't quite scale as well as you're looking at 2-3x scimitars for 40-50x hacs. You could throw 10x miner alts in blackbirds and be hugely annoying.
In small fights falcon is still probably better. Hide and wait for the fight to start. Would you rather take a bs out of the fight or attempt to rep that 1k hp/sec? Curse/pilgrim will get kills that might not be otherwise possible. Same with huginn/rapier/lachesis/arazu. These probably have more utility than logistics. Logistics is stuck at maybe being useful comprising 5-10% of the fleet. If a small gang doesn't have logistics, sure bring a scimitar or two. Otherwise a recon/ecm would be better.
If you have a slow moving gang and specific logistics groups that fly on a regular basis and are coordinated *then* lots of logistics might make sense.
ECM scales better.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.05 15:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Being uncoordinated means you're bad,
*looks at forum name....*
We're not talking about someone with 6months or a year or two of experience. We're talking about how to get someone up and running in pvp as quickly as possible. ecm is the clear winner. Even with an older crowd there are advantages to ecm over logistics. Not every group runs logisitics for a reason.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
It's not difficult to use watch lists and broadcasts. If BS are getting popped before you can get a rep on them(5 seconds or so) then you're in a large enough battle
honestly ECM doesn't really matter either because you'll be instantly popped.
watch lists are fairly limited in the number they can watch. Broadcasts can be confusing, constant, and not always used. If someone is trying to gtfo they'll probably skip the broadcast. If you're the lone scimitar trying to back up a bunch of frigs you've got to look on the screen where the missiles are going. If its a rr bs gang then you might as well have brought another rr bs versus a guardian. Log is mostly a niche role.
Rarely is ecm instantly popped like that. Usually because you can stay aligned and at speed. The second you see you a few blinkies in the overview you start to warp out. You might be in deep structure or armor but you can usually get out. If someone can't survive as ecm they'll never make it as logistics.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
In medium gangs you don't need range/speed in a Guardian because you fly them in groups, cap transfering and repairing each other (as I laid out earlier in the thread).
They're too slow except in rr bs gangs that hug gates. So hacs + scimitars are superior. The guardian + rr bs gang is a niche role. If there aren't a few other guardian pilots on then there isn't much point in being a solo logistics. Might as well take another rr bs. And we're back to logistics being a small niche.
This stuff works for tourneys but not most gangs.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
but jamming out 1 guy out of 35 isn't that big of a deal. Basically an ECM ship allows you to take on an extra couple people in an enemy gang, while having good logistics allows you to take on 10 or 15 more ships.
dps can allow you to break a point and avoid damage entirely. It can allow a 6mil cruiser to take out a 200mil bs. Logistics can't effectively counter that type of dps unless that 10-15 is support heavy.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.05 18:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
You use your watch list to keep track of the high priority people (other logistics, ships with less of a tank, the FC, etc), then just use broadcasts to keep track of everyone else. You should be able to have 5 or 6 targets at once, just cycle through and you should be fine.
watch lists + locks means you'll have issues supporting more than 30-40 in gang. Part of the issue of why they don't scale.
Is that last broadcast from a ceptor that someone tried to nuke or from a bs that is now primary? Guess wrong and they pop. You'll be spending a lot of time unlocking someone and looking for the next one to rep.
Logistics works when the other side is just calling one primary at a time. When support isn't being nuked when someone sees traversal go to 0km but the mwd on. If multiple friendlies are being hit then broadcasts stomp on each other.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
honestly it's not that hard to kill a blackbird. Even if you warp out in structure, you're still off grid and contributing nothing. Also, surviving in a logistic (basilisk or guardian) really has nothing in common with surviving in an ECM ship. The first you're relying on remote repair to keep you alive, and hopefully jumping through a gate or docking to escape
Back to t1 vs t2. Hard to kill a falcon. Hard to kill a blackbird that knows what they're doing. All they have to do is warp on grid to a good spot to jam.
The logistics have less options. Jumping through a gate often isn't an option unless in a rr bs gang (niche). Docking to escape is extremely rare unless you're playing station games to begin with.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
If you all just hop in random ships you're never going to be as successful as a fleet that fits uniformly for a common tactic.
But most gangs are precisely this.
A gate camp that evolves to a roaming gang then then tries to hoof it across the map on reports of a carrier tackled. Flexibility is key.
Good luck trying to get a number of logistics together. Usually the max I've seen outside of a pos op has been maybe 3x scimitars.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.05 19:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Why would your interceptors be broadcasting? The only ships that should be broadcasting are ships that can actually be tanked. Logistics don't operate in a vacuum, your gangmates need to know what they're doing as well.
Because its that or they pop. Once your support and tacklers/dictors are gone then all of that tank and gank is worthless. You can go heavy dictor but they're not all that fast. The hostiles will wait until you need to warp off then they'll pick of anyone that isn't fast enough.
I've seen a flycatcher "tank" about 20 hostiles shooting at it and backed up with 3x scimitars. The issue is the lack of buffer and a hectic dog fight means any mistakes and they pop. So logistics help but we're back to the scaling issue.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
involves warping away, which removes any benefit you're adding.
It means warping away on grid and starting to jam again. Mobility wins.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
pretty much every gang I ever take out is specific. Going around with random ships is just asking to get spanked by someone who's organized and prepared. Again, maybe we're just weird, but getting together 2-3 logistics for a 20 person gang has rarely been an issue...Logistics take some coordination and organization, but when used correctly they completely change a battle.
I agree they can be useful on a small scale. But they don't scale well which was your original contention.
You're probably also choosing your battles carefully which isn't always possible in 0.0. Also hugging gates often isn't an issue. So you're touring through 0.0, killing some not paying attention then jumping back to empire once threatened.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.08.05 20:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Christina Bamar
They're going to go pop either way, you do not have light ships broadcast while running logistics, it simply is not worth it. If your flycatcher is tanking 20 hostiles
I can go either way. Some times I've watched small ships pop while I was sitting idle in a scimitar because of the "small ships shouldn't broadcast" thing. I've seen also seen cruisers broadcast in the middle of a big fight.
Would be nice for an overview filters on the broadcasts. Till then I try and look at where the missiles are heading to see who might not be broadcasting. Part of the issue why broadcasting doesn't scale.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
Are you contending that a 30 man fleet of random PvP fitted ships is somehow more versatile than a 30 man logistic gang?
Yes. Because a 30 man group is usually fairly organic. People joining and leaving. Groups merging and splitting. Theres often a call for something like "small fast ships", or "hacs", but past that is difficult to mandate.
An organic 30 man group is likely to be more active and get more kills than a 30 man logistic group. Now if they two meet up the logistic group certaily has the edge. But then again the organic group will probably just hot drop some caps and be done with it.
Many people don't like the mandate that your ship will be fitted xzy.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
On the other hand a logistic ship makes every one of your ships better
No, just one ship better. The one you're paying attention to. ECM doesn't need the same level of micromanagement.
Logistics makes more sense the smaller the gang. Then there are practical upper limits to the number of logistics + gang, about 30-45 or so.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
The only time the geddon becomes more useful is if you already have a number of guardians.
The guardian is probably going to back 4x reps while the geddon one rep. But the geddon has dps. The larger the rr bs group the less rep percentage is done by the logistics. ie 3x guardians bring 12 reps versus 20 rr bs bringing 20x reps.
Originally by: Christina Bamar
You can fly remote rep, you can fly fast sniping HACs(with logistics), or you can fight bad opponents.
rr is too slow to get many kills. You'll get the bored but you're not forcing the fights.
Sniping hacs works but logistics here isn't purely required. Sniping hacs shoudn't be tackled so they can warp at will.
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