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Starkmanir faith?

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Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:27:00 - [1] I happened to be reading [url=http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3256&tid=3]the news about the Jarek killing[/url] and could not help but to notice this: Quote: Starkmanir refugees who, despite all, hold to the Amarrian faith What the hell? This is the lot we bombed Yulai for, blowing all chances for a peaceful future, risking everything we had? How can anyone of the free tribes convert to Evil God is beyond me, but this is even more mind-boggling. Should not the Starkmanir, of all tribes, be the ones who know the price you pay for being foolish enough to follow the Slaver? Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
DeadRow The Synenose Accord	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:39:00 - [2] Perhaps the Elders/Thukker/Republic/whoever the hell attacked CONCORD should have thought a bit more before risking everything and dropping the Cluster into war. Norrin Ellis > What?! Boobs aren't inappropriate! They feed children! For God's sake, think of the children!
Ouro Akala	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:40:00 - [3] Mlle Rhiannon, if I remember correctly the Starkmanir were being sheltered within the Ammatar Mandate, within which the Amarrian religion reigns supreme. There does exist a probability that a small number of them converted to the Amarrian religion and, after generations passed, came to consider it a part of them just like their tribal heritage. When the fleet came, they might have just been swept up with the rest and brought back to Republic Space with no questions asked. Why would they do this? We can always speculate. Perhaps some of them were tired of waiting for the liberating forces to come, others maybe just thought it would make their life easier in their immediate environment. Who knows? All I'm saying is this is not as improbable as it looks at first glance. There are, after all, even Gallenteans who follow that religion, and who convert to it within the Federation itself. Mind-boggling? Yes, by all means. But it does happen.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 10:56:00 - [4] Perhaps the next time the Shakorites launch an unprovoked attack on the Empire to attempt a "rescue" of slaves, they'll have the decency to ask those slaves if they want to be rescued. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:14:00 - [5] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/08/2009 11:15:16 Originally by: DeadRow Perhaps the Elders/Thukker/Republic/whoever the hell attacked CONCORD should have thought a bit more before risking everything and dropping the Cluster into war. Indeed. Originally by: Rodj Blake Perhaps the next time the Shakorites launch an unprovoked attack on the Empire to attempt a "rescue" of slaves, they'll have the decency to ask those slaves if they want to be rescued. Enslaving people counts as provocation in itself... Also, I believe the situation was such that it was difficult to get consent before an Amarr genocide made the question purely academic anyway. Originally by: Ouro Akala There are, after all, even Gallenteans who follow that religion, and who convert to it within the Federation itself. Mind-boggling? Yes, by all means. But it does happen. Yes, indeed; I was questioning the sanity of this more than its factuality. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Arkady Sadik Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:46:00 - [6] Else, I think the full sentence in the news article is this: Quote: The concern felt by many converts has found expression in particular among those Nefantar and Starkmanir refugees who, despite all, hold to the Amarrian faith. It does read to me more like there are some Starkmanir who hold to the Amarrian belief, not many or even most. Do not condemn the many for the folly of the few.
Kade Jeekin Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2009.08.05 11:55:00 - [7] Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 05/08/2009 11:56:45 Elsebeth Rhiannon, your quote is too short. Try: Quote: The concern felt by many converts has found expression in particular among those Nefantar and Starkmanir refugees who, despite all, hold to the Amarrian faith. "Among those" implies that there are also those who don't hold to the Amarrian faith. Relative numbers are not available at this point. That some hold to the faith that they have been brought up with should be no suprise. When faced with the uncertainty of freedom, some balk. I've observed this in some people that I've freed. I believe it is a victim mentality syndrome. Edit: Arkady Sadik - I spent too long contemplating my words, only to find that you have said them too. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:12:00 - [8] It's ridiculous propaganda. None of the kidnapped Starkies follow the Amarrian faith. Your Matari Day of Darkness was completely justified. Please don't beat them to death.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:14:00 - [9] I stand corrected; thank you, brothers. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I stand corrected; thank you, brothers. You're welcome.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I stand corrected; thank you, brothers. You're welcome. Very funny. Just in case you really are as thick as you sound, I was talking to Arkady and Kade, not you. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I stand corrected; thank you, brothers. You're welcome. Very funny. Just in case you really are as thick as you sound, I was talking to Arkady and Kade, not you. Elsebeth And here I thought I was being helpful.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.05 12:58:00 - [13] The Amarrian God is not evil. Do not mistake the focus of a religion as being one and the same thing as the deeds performed in the name of that religion. Doing so relative to Amarr only yields the conclusion that their God must be insane. This is not the case. Many influential Amarr have been insane, or corrupt, or caught in the grip of collective mania, but the deity Himself? Such classifications do not apply to the divine. Good and Evil are behavioural categories that only apply to mortals. God does not directly influence the world, nor does he command his followers to act, unless you count schizophrenia. Thus, the Amarrian God cannot be defined as evil, only the people who have done evil in His name can. And people will do evil in the name of absolutely anything, Ms. Rhiannon. Recently, for example, some masked people have beaten an unarmed cleric to death while he was trying to protect his followers. I'd classify that as an evil deed, regardless of his chosen faith. Evil has been committed in the name of freedom, stability, prosperity, family, friendship, and a good deal more besides. None of those things may be described as being evil, and neither can God. And if God is not evil, then what harm is there in worshiping Him? - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Stitcher The Amarrian God is not evil. According to my belief system, He is. I am sure I have a right to "just express" my religious views, too, no? Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Stitcher The Amarrian God is not evil. According to my belief system, He is. I am sure I have a right to "just express" my religious views, too, no? Elsebeth Yup. But wouldn't you prefer to be correct?
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Mr Reeth Yup. But wouldn't you prefer to be correct? If it involves thinking the Evil God is not evil, no, thanks. Else -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Yup. But wouldn't you prefer to be correct? If it involves thinking the Evil God is not evil, no, thanks. Else You have just stated a preference towards inaccuracy and ignorance. Are you sure you want to stick with that answer?
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Yup. But wouldn't you prefer to be correct? If it involves thinking the Evil God is not evil, no, thanks. You have just stated a preference towards inaccuracy and ignorance. Are you sure you want to stick with that answer? Note to self: never joke with an Amarr. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.05 13:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Mr Reeth Yup. But wouldn't you prefer to be correct? If it involves thinking the Evil God is not evil, no, thanks. You have just stated a preference towards inaccuracy and ignorance. Are you sure you want to stick with that answer? Note to self: never joke with an Amarr. Elsebeth I think you pressed the wrong button. Your "note to self" ended up on IGS... how embarrassing.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:33:00 - [20] Edited by: Stitcher on 05/08/2009 14:33:59 Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Stitcher The Amarrian God is not evil. According to my belief system, He is. I am sure I have a right to "just express" my religious views, too, no? Elsebeth That's a very Amarrian response, pilot. Don't respond just to the first sentence: respond to the entire comment. I have explained why He cannot reasonably be classed as Evil. You may not agree with my assessment, but at least give me a reasoned argument, not "I disagree, end of discussion". That is not merely an unreasonable response, it is also an unreasoning response. The right to hold and express your own opinion is rooted in the assumption that your opinion is defensible and well thought-out. Adhering to your principles without the capacity to defend those principles is the mark of a zealot, and zealotry is what lies at the heart of every evil act ever done in the name of idealism. In other words "According to my belief system, X" is exactly the sort of thinking that led to the Day of Darkness. You're better than that - rise above it. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 14:48:00 - [21] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 05/08/2009 14:49:08 Originally by: Stitcher Don't respond just to the first sentence: respond to the entire comment. I have explained why He cannot reasonably be classed as Evil. Fair enough, pilot Hakatain. I do not in all seriousness believe in the existence of God. "My belief system" is a system of clan stories that I regard as metaphors, not as real beings. If God is considered an abstract concept and a metaphor for "the divine", as I believe you intended to do, indeed the fact that people do evil things in the name of that concept does not make it evil. I cannot contest that. However, in our stories, the "God" is not a metaphor for that which is good and divine, but rather a metaphor for the Amarrian faith or for a powerful being that demands obedience regardless of virtue. The way to "salvation" is by defying him even if personal misfortune or destruction follows. ("But strength does not equal virtue, and power does not justify evil.") In that sense, to "follow God" is to give up your reason and independence in favor of an axiomatic belief system that advocates enslavement and murder, and God is the evil that requires that. And that is why we term the Amarrian God the Evil One. No further offense to believers in other gods is intended. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Jareth Desiato Caldari NoD Imperium	Posted - 2009.08.05 16:35:00 - [22] If you engage in an act of violence, you go against the teachings of any god of love. If your religion permits you to be a violent individual, then you are a mad dog and need to be put down like one. It's really as simple as that. Is your God good or Evil and what do you in the name of your god? Personally I think the worship of some unseen diety just takes away from the accomplishments of man. If there was such an entity out there, we would have a biological and genetic imperitive to destroy it. But if it keeps the masses happy and the banks open... Just my .02 ISK J. Desiato State Protectorate Politcal Office "The State is Mother. The State is Father."
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.05 18:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon I do not in all seriousness believe in the existence of God. "My belief system" is a system of clan stories that I regard as metaphors, not as real beings. If God is considered an abstract concept and a metaphor for "the divine", as I believe you intended to do, indeed the fact that people do evil things in the name of that concept does not make it evil. I cannot contest that. Well, the point I am trying to make is that your Starkmanir and Abel Jarek and that lot are worshipping that view of a divine God, not your metaphor for Amarrian imperialism as a whole. Which brings us full circle - you're fully entitled to condemn Reclaiming and slavery in the name of God as being evil. All Matari have that right, after all. But I think it's always worth retaining a separation between the secular organization and the spiritual concept they align with. Matari converts almost certainly aren't worshipping Amarr the slave-takers and pillagers of worlds, although for a clearer perspective on what they are worshipping, I'd say your best bet would be to go ask them. Politely, of course. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 18:24:00 - [24] Pilot Hakatain, with all due respect, while I would love to share your belief that no Minmatar would ever share the Amarr belief together with the parts of slavery being good for them, and Reclaiming the right thing to do, I cannot do that. There are many collaborators who actually believe exactly that, even among pilots. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Stitcher Caldari ForgeTech Industries	Posted - 2009.08.05 19:04:00 - [25] We're talking minorities and majorities here, not absolutes. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.08.05 20:34:00 - [26] Well, Jarek himself is kind of too late to ask from, and I do not have a live contact to the Starkmanir that profess to the Amarrian Faith. It is my belief that Jarek preached a version more or less following the official creed. If I am mistaken, I am sure someone who followed him more closely will correct. Elsebeth -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Laerise Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.05 22:11:00 - [27] Edited by: Laerise on 05/08/2009 22:11:47 Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Stitcher The Amarrian God is not evil. According to my belief system, He is. I am sure I have a right to "just express" my religious views, too, no? Elsebeth Unlike most we do not need a belief system to know that you are subhuman, it is a fact, not some whacky clownshow with bananas thrown in for supper.
Invelious Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies	Posted - 2009.08.05 22:20:00 - [28] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Rodj Blake Perhaps the next time the Shakorites launch an unprovoked attack on the Empire to attempt a "rescue" of slaves, they'll have the decency to ask those slaves if they want to be rescued. Enslaving people counts as provocation in itself... Also, I believe the situation was such that it was difficult to get consent before an Amarr genocide made the question purely academic anyway. The enslaving of those people took place ages ago, and the provocation for freeing those slaves has long passed. What we have now is a entirely new group of people, born into and accepting Amarrian society, and not the same people you are speaking of freeing, those people are long gone.
Carcosa Hali Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.08.06 01:09:00 - [29] I hate to side with the Amarr on this, but what's-his-face is pretty much right. The Amarr are well schooled at indoctrination and snuffing out cultures. I doubt that there are many Starkmanir that -don't- believe in the Amarrian Deity after a few score generations. They might even like her. Did they even know what the word Starkmanir meant before you told them? I'm sorry, but the Starkmanir you're thinking of exist only in history books.. all you've got is their descendants.. The tribe is going to have to be rebuilt from the ground up, so be forgiving if they don't exactly fit your mold. But the future is wide open, try not to kill it. -------------- Sometimes you lose it all... The Secret History of Sansha's Nation
Mr Reeth	Posted - 2009.08.06 02:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Carcosa Hali I hate to side with the Amarr on this, but what's-his-face is pretty much right. The Amarr are well schooled at indoctrination and snuffing out cultures. I doubt that there are many Starkmanir that -don't- believe in the Amarrian Deity after a few score generations. They might even like her. Quiet! Are you trying to get them all killed?!

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