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UI and others... CCP doesn't care?

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Anubis Assassin Caldari SandStorm.	Posted - 2009.08.12 23:58:00 - [1] We all know the UI bugs the majority of us. Be it either eye candy or functional, it's got problems. I remember watching The Butterfly Effect video and I just watched the Apocrypha trailer again and I can't help but wonder. The "UI" type stuff in them would be so awesome and more animated and "alive" in EVE and all we get is the crap that's in there now. What gives? Things could look SO much better in Eve, but they don't. We got Trinity which mostly took care of the ships and Apocrypha that took care of most of the objects in space and effects. There's so much still lacking though and so much that should've been that wasn't. Who the hell is calling these shots? Awesome warp animation on SiSi got removed once it hit Tranq. Turrets no longer have recoil. Missiles weren't even touched, they still get nothing! Some space objects (red cloven asteroid anyone?) don't quite work. They're just solid black. TP animation spazzes out when first activated. We have YET to get new backgrounds in regular space... I'm sure there's more. Anyone else wanna throw in some graphical/modeling related issues here? Wtf is the department that takes care of this doing exactly? It's been said that each department is their own and they don't have to do others' work. So what ARE they doing? We're getting this and that with some of these patches, where's the **** we have to look at every day? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we're getting the other stuff as well, like the upcoming Rigs stuff. Making Eve look and feel better would be nice, too. You're all about immersion and RP, but the UI breaks it, horribly. We're supposed to be seeing all this outside our ships by camera drones feeding it all into our heads. Wtf is the point of the analog-like gage for our ships' hit-points and heat levels? None of the UI really feels like something that would be super imposed over our view. Lets not even mention the font... I'll make a mockup idea of what I mean with this though and put it on here. Feedback/discussions? --------------------------- I have to make my own sig break? WTF? These forums suck CCP, fix 'em or get something better... I'm tired of reading Khraunus' sig every single time I read one of his
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:01:00 - [2] EVE has a UI? goes back to station spinning Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i am your brain on boosters lol
Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:16:00 - [3] Nice rant, but there IS a patch around the corner...not to mention all the other crap CCP is dealing with (the ISK sellers stealing accounts isn't helping I'd imagine). Just wait and they'll come SoonÖ. 9/10, would read again.
Anubis Assassin Caldari SandStorm.	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:31:00 - [4] Originally by: Agent Known Nice rant, but there IS a patch around the corner...not to mention all the other crap CCP is dealing with (the ISK sellers stealing accounts isn't helping I'd imagine). Just wait and they'll come SoonÖ. 9/10, would read again. A patch around the corner for what though? The rigs and the supposedly fixed audio issues? Also, the art department shouldn't have to be dealing with any of the ISK sellers or account stealing or anything. So that can't be the problem. --------------------------- I have to make my own sig break? WTF? These forums suck CCP, fix 'em or get something better... I'm tired of reading Khraunus' sig every single time I read one of his
JitaBum Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:34:00 - [5] CCP has two other projects on the go. What do you think they're doing?
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:41:00 - [6] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 13/08/2009 00:40:57 Originally by: JitaBum What do you think they're doing? Getting drunk and building odd looking wooden boats to allow them to "visit" neigboring countries? Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i am your brain on boosters lol
ShadowGod56	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:45:00 - [7] Originally by: Khemul Zula Edited by: Khemul Zula on 13/08/2009 00:40:57 Originally by: JitaBum What do you think they're doing? Getting drunk and building odd looking wooden boats to allow them to "visit" neigboring countries? lmao post of the day
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:52:00 - [8] Edited by: Zartanic on 13/08/2009 00:54:01 There is so many little things they could do to make the UI more usable. The easiest thing they could do would be to allow limited scripting which allows player designed UI's. This does not seem to be on anyone's radar though, including CSM. So were stuck with it I think. Even a drag/drop of commonly used commands would be handy...I tend to use the same commands, having to click click click to get to them every time is plain bad design. Visually it looks like my old Amiga, in fact worse, my ZX spectrum looked nicer, it must put players off. EDIT: and being forced to use alt or whatever for keybindings is so out of date. At least give an option.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2009.08.13 03:01:00 - [9] it's pretty clear CCP does not care about the UI. It is impossible to have a UI like EvE has and care, in any way, about UI. I totally agree with you but it's just not in the cards. Also, prepare for a lot of anger directed at your way. Because of WoW or something. I don't really get it either. My favorite UI feature is having to repackage three hundred items with a confirm screen on each repackaging before selling said items. My second favorite thing is how repackage item, one of the most common choices on the context menu, is way towards the bottom, after, no joke, "trash item." Which prompts a nearly identical confirm screen to repackage item. It's pretty unbelievable, but here we are. I know, I know - not wanting to hit "repackage item" and click a confirm screen 300 times means I should instead be playing WoW. I'll be right on my way.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.08.13 03:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Emperor Cheney My favorite UI feature is having to repackage three hundred items with a confirm screen on each repackaging before selling said items. My second favorite thing is how repackage item, one of the most common choices on the context menu, is way towards the bottom, after, no joke, "trash item." Which prompts a nearly identical confirm screen to repackage item. It's pretty unbelievable, but here we are. I know, I know - not wanting to hit "repackage item" and click a confirm screen 300 times means I should instead be playing WoW. I'll be right on my way. "Select all" & "Repackage" would be your friend. Ctrl + A & "Repackage" would be even more friendly. "Trash it" is next to a lot of commonly used options in the menu, but in fairness there isn't really anywhere to put it that wouldn't have it next to something people use. Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails i am your brain on boosters lol

Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2009.08.13 04:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Emperor Cheney My favorite UI feature is having to repackage three hundred items with a confirm screen on each repackaging before selling said items. My second favorite thing is how repackage item, one of the most common choices on the context menu, is way towards the bottom, after, no joke, "trash item." Which prompts a nearly identical confirm screen to repackage item. It's pretty unbelievable, but here we are. I know, I know - not wanting to hit "repackage item" and click a confirm screen 300 times means I should instead be playing WoW. I'll be right on my way. "Select all" & "Repackage" would be your friend. Ctrl + A & "Repackage" would be even more friendly. "Trash it" is next to a lot of commonly used options in the menu, but in fairness there isn't really anywhere to put it that wouldn't have it next to something people use. I. . .uh. . .thanks. A lot. I maintain that the need to repackage things in the first place is completely pointless. I am not sure what gameplay experience I am supposed to be getting by putting things into packages. I should be able to sell an item regardless of it being packaged or not, or better yet have the entire packaged/unpackaged mechanic removed. As far as position in context menus, the more common an action, the more readily accessible that action should be on the menu. And two actions that give opposite outcomes (repackage/trash) that for some reason give near-identical looking confirm screens being right next to each other with little tiny font should never, ever happen.
Thernys Caldari Capital Construction Research Pioneer Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.13 05:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Emperor Cheney I maintain that the need to repackage things in the first place is completely pointless. I am not sure what gameplay experience I am supposed to be getting by putting things into packages. Well at least one function with the whole repackaging thing is ensuring that when you buy a module off the market it doesn't come with 90% heat damage. Whether this is (one of) its primary function(s) I couldn't say. Originally by: Emperor Cheney And two actions that give opposite outcomes (repackage/trash) I'll give you that this is a bit of a sore point with several things. Personal pet peeves include 'scan' button next to 'recall probes' button (ok, at least it's not the 'destroy probes' button), and 'Unanchor' next to 'Open' in the GSC contextual menu. But clearly we just take it as an exercise in fine motor skills and play along ;)
Reiisha Evolution	Posted - 2009.08.13 05:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Emperor Cheney I. . .uh. . .thanks. A lot. I maintain that the need to repackage things in the first place is completely pointless. I am not sure what gameplay experience I am supposed to be getting by putting things into packages. I should be able to sell an item regardless of it being packaged or not, or better yet have the entire packaged/unpackaged mechanic removed. It's for a very good reason. When you "unpack" an item, a new database entry is made with all the stats on it. A simple example, like a ship, has it's current hitpoints, modules and rigs saved in that entry. A packaged item however is a basic, standard databse entry with the basic stats on that item. This is what makes the eve market possible. If it was filled with unpackaged items, the load on the database would increase 100 times, 1000 times, maybe more? It's just not acceptable. In other games, there are barely any item states saved, if at all. The game gets by with pulling the same database entry for every "copy" of the item in the game. In WoW for example, items are simple values on your character sheets: Slot x has item y with enchantment z and gems a b c. In EVE, most items get saved seperately since a) they're not "soulbound", so they can get traded, and b) there are no "slots" on your character which can be used to save the item characteristics, like you have in other mmo's. In short: You would never get a job working on a database. :P "If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2009.08.13 05:47:00 - [14] Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 13/08/2009 05:47:00 Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Emperor Cheney I. . .uh. . .thanks. A lot. I maintain that the need to repackage things in the first place is completely pointless. I am not sure what gameplay experience I am supposed to be getting by putting things into packages. I should be able to sell an item regardless of it being packaged or not, or better yet have the entire packaged/unpackaged mechanic removed. It's for a very good reason. When you "unpack" an item, a new database entry is made with all the stats on it. A simple example, like a ship, has it's current hitpoints, modules and rigs saved in that entry. A packaged item however is a basic, standard databse entry with the basic stats on that item. This is what makes the eve market possible. If it was filled with unpackaged items, the load on the database would increase 100 times, 1000 times, maybe more? It's just not acceptable. In other games, there are barely any item states saved, if at all. The game gets by with pulling the same database entry for every "copy" of the item in the game. In WoW for example, items are simple values on your character sheets: Slot x has item y with enchantment z and gems a b c. In EVE, most items get saved seperately since a) they're not "soulbound", so they can get traded, and b) there are no "slots" on your character which can be used to save the item characteristics, like you have in other mmo's. In short: You would never get a job working on a database. :P Well, I've been outed as not being a database engineer. But would it be possible that upon selling an unpackaged item, a check is performed to see if damaged, and if not, upon entering the market the item is automatically packaged. EvE, for whatever reason, puts every single action on the user. It is frustrating to play a video game that is actually less user-friendly and intuitive than Excel.
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2009.08.13 07:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Zartanic Edited by: Zartanic on 13/08/2009 00:54:01 There is so many little things they could do to make the UI more usable. The easiest thing they could do would be to allow limited scripting which allows player designed UI's. This does not seem to be on anyone's radar though, including CSM. tbh ... I hope they never allow that. I prefer a level playing field instead of script kiddies scripting/creating their own UI that gives them an advantage over me or anybody else that does not want to install 3 bazillion add-ons. FC
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2009.08.13 07:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Emperor Cheney it's pretty clear CCP does not care about the UI. It is impossible to have a UI like EvE has and care, in any way, about UI. I totally agree with you but it's just not in the cards. CCP does care about the UI ... but the UI in it's current state ( as you can read on the forums ) is an evolution of years of development work. Redoing the UI is a gargantuan task and they could potentially eff up more then they could fix. FC
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Zartanic The easiest thing they could do would be to allow limited scripting .... OH HELL NO!!!!!
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Emperor Cheney It's for a very good TECHNICAL reason. blabla In short: You would never get a job working on a database. :P I see no reason why this can't be hidden from the user interaction by an automated process. We are after all in here to get a gaming experience and not a database experience. In short: You would never get a job working on game design :P.
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Franco Caruso CCP does care about the UI ... but the UI in it's current state ( as you can read on the forums ) is an evolution of years of development work. Redoing the UI is a gargantuan task and they could potentially eff up more then they could fix. Are you really, really sure the UI evolved in any way at all? Mircomanaging is all fine and dandy, but a bit less of it certainly wouldn't hurt, would it? While I agree, a lot of stuff could go wrong, a lot of stuff could also be finally right. I have dreamed of a better UI since I started this game. The only things I got were the ability to move a few of the windows and a new fitting screen. Compare that to other games where I can move everything, change every form and paint smiley faces all over it, if I so desire. _________ The truth is out there
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Lana Torrin Originally by: Zartanic The easiest thing they could do would be to allow limited scripting .... OH HELL NO!!!!! OH HELL YES!!!!! Seriously though, being able to simplify the way to get to commands you use often would be very nice. I am not talking about automations but for example launching the drone group 'Hammerhead' when the button is pressed. Or loading antimatter into weapongroup 1. Or have several predefined orbit destances already ready. Or, or, or... _________ The truth is out there

Franco Caruso	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker Are you really, really sure the UI evolved in any way at all? Mircomanaging is all fine and dandy, but a bit less of it certainly wouldn't hurt, would it? Well, I am an obvious alt. My main plays since day 1 and yes, I am very sure that the UI evolved quite a lot over the years. lol ... there was a screenshot section once on this site and if you would go aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way back you'd see that the UI has changed rather radically over the years. I do not want to state that I know what it takes to redo the whole UI part but I have an idea what it would mean to rip the UI codebase apart and re-create it. FC
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker Seriously though, being able to simplify the way to get to commands you use often would be very nice. I am not talking about automations but for example launching the drone group 'Hammerhead' when the button is pressed. Or loading antimatter into weapongroup 1. Or have several predefined orbit destances already ready. Or, or, or... More customizable UI without third party scripting ? .signed
Morphisat Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:40:00 - [23] The last few patches have already had some UI changes / enhancements. I think they are a little reluctant to do a big overhaul, as that might break a lot of things, or get the regulars too upset ;).
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.08.13 08:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Franco Caruso Well, I am an obvious alt. My main plays since day 1 and yes, I am very sure that the UI evolved quite a lot over the years. lol ... there was a screenshot section once on this site and if you would go aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the way back you'd see that the UI has changed rather radically over the years. I do not want to state that I know what it takes to redo the whole UI part but I have an idea what it would mean to rip the UI codebase apart and re-create it. Yeah, I know the UI looked diffrent way back, and the introduction of the overview was also a good change. Okay, and the ability to display (or not) brackets. Still there are a lot of problems with the UI. If you want to search for a solar system in peoples & places, you will always have to scroll the list. Its not a big list, but you have to scroll. Small stuff like that and the extrem micro managment you have to do, shows the age of the UI to me. You are sitting in a high tech spaceship and have to push the scanner button every few seconds... looks odd, doesn't it? What is scripting to you? Anything you have to type? Or only if it gets too complex? A line like 'name:antimatter;modulef1(load(caldari navy antimatter l));' would that be scripting to you? _________ The truth is out there
Franco Caruso	Posted - 2009.08.13 09:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker What is scripting to you? Anything you have to type? Or only if it gets too complex? A line like 'name:antimatter;modulef1(load(caldari navy antimatter l));' would that be scripting to you? As long as it would be a scripting language exposed by CCP and not something that would evolve into WoW like UI Add-ons fine. That is what I meant. If I understand you correctly you want to be able to add a button somewhere and add some underlying code ( like above ) to it ? As long as it's all done by CCP ... fine fine. FC
EPW Slave	Posted - 2009.08.13 09:04:00 - [26] Edited by: EPW Slave on 13/08/2009 09:04:10 If CCP didnt care they would just leave this game to die like some other mmo's (least me mention a few from a company S*E), we cant have what we want right now but the game is contstallny being updated, i find it great how CCP interacts with its players (on the fourms, dev blogs, CSM) ect. /thread....at least i can hope
Sophia Truthspeaker Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.08.13 09:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Franco Caruso As long as it would be a scripting language exposed by CCP and not something that would evolve into WoW like UI Add-ons fine. That is what I meant. If I understand you correctly you want to be able to add a button somewhere and add some underlying code ( like above ) to it ? As long as it's all done by CCP ... fine fine. Button or shortcutted to a key, yes. The problem is, the WoW like UI Add-ons were exposed by Blizzard. They aren't that much diffrent from the coded buttons, except they can also change the display of the button. And take care of some calculation. In Eve we already use websites and excell sheets for that. Anyway, being able to create shortcuts for the commands would already be great. CCP could probably even rig up some kind of easy bake shortcut writer without too many problems. _________ The truth is out there
Manivald Kostaja	Posted - 2009.08.13 09:20:00 - [28] [rabid_fanboy] The font is fine. If you cannot read it use 800x600 resolution, all information fits to screen fine with that. Also buying a better eyes help. PS. There are no bugs in eve. [/rabid_fanboy]
Ariane VoxDei	Posted - 2009.08.13 13:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Agent Known Nice rant, but there IS a patch around the corner... Just wait and they'll come SoonÖ. This. Something is coming, but they are not telling what it is, in sufficient detail, so lets keep our list of grievances until it shows up. We would waste the "wave of anger" impression by letting it loose at a time where calls for changes would be ignored. However, judging by the lack of UI talk in the testserver section of the forum, the changes to that area of the client is minimal or just slight retouches.
Saint VII Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.08.13 16:12:00 - [30] Not sure if Anubis has much or any experience with games other than EVE, but the effort CCP undertook to literally redesign every asset in the game, totally overhaul their graphics engine, etc., etc is quite uncommon. It isn't unprecidented, but certainly rare. Ranting at them for not having done enough seems rather puerile. No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.



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