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Archbishop
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Posted - 2004.10.10 21:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Archbishop on 10/10/2004 21:52:00
Alot of good comments on what is an important issue. I like the fact that people are staying mature and avoiding the "your a noob stfu" garbage talk that looks like it came form a third grader. There is actually a good thread started in the Shiva forum here:
SHIVA THREAD ON STATIONS
I myself have my own opinions on this matter for several very good reasons.
 Quote:
"People who ask for POS in empire is the most vivid example of carebearism I can think of. There is absolutley no reason to put a base in empire other than you not wanting your base to get shot up."
Digital Communist your 100% incorrect here. Lets take a look at PIE for example. We have 20+ wars, fight daily, provide vivid roleplay for the Eve community, are you saying we have "no risk"? We lose ships all the time so do the Minmatar.
Yet as "defenders of the Empire" we have all kinds of reasons to want to put a base in Empire. This attitude of the 0.0 alliances that they're somehow so much better then anyone else or that their way of playing is the only way is nauseating. There are 40,000+ people playing Eve its a given not all of them are 0.0 players and its also a given there are MANY reasons for them not being in 0.0 other then "not wanting to be blown up".
Quote:
"I only have 2,000,000 experience points, 8,000,000 ISK in the bank, a thorax (almost to battleship too) and Iteron V. Even then, I cant afford to go waltzing through 0.0 space, I can barely defend myself in 0.5 space against NPC's."
Buggsi thats not entirely true either. In defense of those who play in 0.0 you need to accept some risk to go into 0.0. There are rewards to "risk" the reward is vast mineral wealth. I went into 0.0 right after beta and stayed there for months. The only thing keeping you out of 0.0 is your fear. Conquer your fear and take a chance.
Quote:
"I think POS should be available to anyone new or old in the game and buildable in all security systems. I came into the game wanting to have a small mining corp. My character isn't a fighter, but a miner. I want to run a corp of ppl who specialize in mining. I don't want to be forced into having a corp that looks like everyone elses corp with fighters, etc. "
Absolutely not. I don't want to wander into Amarr and find 52 stations, 65 mining platforms and 136 Oppressor towers. I don't want every Tom, **** and Harry (unless its TomB of course) to have a POS.
POS should be "goals" for big corporations or alliances. One real problem I have with POS is reading they won't cost much more then a battleship to build. I don't agree with that. These are major undertakings. I'd like to see MAJOR minerals required just to build them and MAJOR expenses in running them weekly. As for small corporations why don't you form a "trade alliance" and team up with other small corps to get a POS together? I think individuals or any small corp having POS is ridiculous. Likewise though I believe having POS only in .4 or below is ridiculous as well.
Lets look for a moment at POS. There are different types from the looks of it all we're getting at Shiva are Mining stations and Defense sentry gun towers. But don't forget we're also getting mining barges. So even little corps can go stripmine to their hearts content. There isn't a big need in Empire for POS. Still there is SOME need. If minerals found after Shiva will be only available at moons it only makes sense that people will harvest them in ANY moon system and not just .4 or below.
Quote:
"Let's not be condescending...I am well aware of what 'multiplayer' means...and it most certainly does not mean "team". "
Your right it doesn't mean "Team". But it doesn't mean because it doesn't mean team that every individual should expect to get everything everyone else does. (Does that make sense?).
Quote:
"You also hinted at Concord protecting said stations for free. Personally I don't think it's been decided one way or another. But another poster suggested that there should be a 'tax' or something to that effect. That would be a logical assumption...and not completely unreasonable I would think. If someone has enough ISK to buy him or herself a 'home'...then paying a monthly 'tax' should be no problem. "
Mr.Binary is quite correct here. There should be several things taken into account in POS in Empire including RESOURCES, STANDING, TAXES. The taxes for POS should be steep. Likewise there need to be limitations on CONCORD defense of POS in Empire. Basically they WON'T defend it. Thats what the defense towers are for!
Likewise just because a station or POS is in Empire doesn't mean there is no "risk". After all in a corp war anything goes. We have 20+ wars right now and fight daily. We have plenty of risk.
(to be continued)
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Archbishop on 10/10/2004 21:52:00
Alot of good comments on what is an important issue. I like the fact that people are staying mature and avoiding the "your a noob stfu" garbage talk that looks like it came form a third grader. There is actually a good thread started in the Shiva forum here:
SHIVA THREAD ON STATIONS
I myself have my own opinions on this matter for several very good reasons.
Quote:
"People who ask for POS in empire is the most vivid example of carebearism I can think of. There is absolutley no reason to put a base in empire other than you not wanting your base to get shot up."
Digital Communist your 100% incorrect here. Lets take a look at PIE for example. We have 20+ wars, fight daily, provide vivid roleplay for the Eve community, are you saying we have "no risk"? We lose ships all the time so do the Minmatar.
Yet as "defenders of the Empire" we have all kinds of reasons to want to put a base in Empire. This attitude of the 0.0 alliances that they're somehow so much better then anyone else or that their way of playing is the only way is nauseating. There are 40,000+ people playing Eve its a given not all of them are 0.0 players and its also a given there are MANY reasons for them not being in 0.0 other then "not wanting to be blown up".
Quote:
"I only have 2,000,000 experience points, 8,000,000 ISK in the bank, a thorax (almost to battleship too) and Iteron V. Even then, I cant afford to go waltzing through 0.0 space, I can barely defend myself in 0.5 space against NPC's."
Buggsi thats not entirely true either. In defense of those who play in 0.0 you need to accept some risk to go into 0.0. There are rewards to "risk" the reward is vast mineral wealth. I went into 0.0 right after beta and stayed there for months. The only thing keeping you out of 0.0 is your fear. Conquer your fear and take a chance.
Quote:
"I think POS should be available to anyone new or old in the game and buildable in all security systems. I came into the game wanting to have a small mining corp. My character isn't a fighter, but a miner. I want to run a corp of ppl who specialize in mining. I don't want to be forced into having a corp that looks like everyone elses corp with fighters, etc. "
Absolutely not. I don't want to wander into Amarr and find 52 stations, 65 mining platforms and 136 Oppressor towers. I don't want every Tom, **** and Harry (unless its TomB of course) to have a POS.
POS should be "goals" for big corporations or alliances. One real problem I have with POS is reading they won't cost much more then a battleship to build. I don't agree with that. These are major undertakings. I'd like to see MAJOR minerals required just to build them and MAJOR expenses in running them weekly. As for small corporations why don't you form a "trade alliance" and team up with other small corps to get a POS together? I think individuals or any small corp having POS is ridiculous. Likewise though I believe having POS only in .4 or below is ridiculous as well.
Lets look for a moment at POS. There are different types from the looks of it all we're getting at Shiva are Mining stations and Defense sentry gun towers. But don't forget we're also getting mining barges. So even little corps can go stripmine to their hearts content. There isn't a big need in Empire for POS. Still there is SOME need. If minerals found after Shiva will be only available at moons it only makes sense that people will harvest them in ANY moon system and not just .4 or below.
Quote:
"Let's not be condescending...I am well aware of what 'multiplayer' means...and it most certainly does not mean "team". "
Your right it doesn't mean "Team". But it doesn't mean because it doesn't mean team that every individual should expect to get everything everyone else does. (Does that make sense?).
Quote:
"You also hinted at Concord protecting said stations for free. Personally I don't think it's been decided one way or another. But another poster suggested that there should be a 'tax' or something to that effect. That would be a logical assumption...and not completely unreasonable I would think. If someone has enough ISK to buy him or herself a 'home'...then paying a monthly 'tax' should be no problem. "
Mr.Binary is quite correct here. There should be several things taken into account in POS in Empire including RESOURCES, STANDING, TAXES. The taxes for POS should be steep. Likewise there need to be limitations on CONCORD defense of POS in Empire. Basically they WON'T defend it. Thats what the defense towers are for!
Likewise just because a station or POS is in Empire doesn't mean there is no "risk". After all in a corp war anything goes. We have 20+ wars right now and fight daily. We have plenty of risk.
(to be continued)
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:47:00 -
[3]
(continued from last post)
Quote:
"this discussion is stupid from the beginning...first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free...POS are for .0 where stations are few and far between ... sometimes 1 or 2 in an entire region ... and if your playing by yourself with 2mill skill pts you sure as hell wont be able to afford to build a pos or have the skills to own it or defend it...best bet is to join an established .0 corp and stop whinning .... "
No its not stupid. Its a pretty mature conversation so far with a minimum of whining and smack talk. We need more discussions like this in Eve. First you'd want to build POS in Empire for the research stations (full stations - Kali probably). Also moon mining stations. There are moons in Empire not just 0.0.
Second for the RP aspect. A big part of Eve history is the Amarr-Minmatar war. Those of us who play RP in that venue live in the Empires. What are we supposed to do? Up and quit just to get POS? Abandon years (since beta) of work?
Who said POS are "for 0.0"?
I agree with you that someone with 2m skillpoints shouldn't expect to own a POS. They need to be so expensive and costly to run (in BOTH 0.0 AND empire) that only the largest alliances and corporations can build them.
Quote:
"POS cannot be destroyed in empire space if they can activate those shields that stop everything and only require an upkeep to keep them active. Since there is no way to starve out the POS from consumables."
They aren't immortal by any stretch of the imagination. Do you think the mineral supply in empire is unlimited? No in corp wars POS can still be destroyed in empire. There is plenty of risk in empire through corp wars and alliance wars. There are alliances based in empire for that matter.
Quote:
"So if it costs 1 billion or 2 or even 5 billion isk to build a POS in 0.5+ and using it barely pays the rent, thats fine for me. But building any POS below 0.5 is very pointless for me or a small(er) group. It will just drag some alliance or pirate group to it who will quickly kill it."
This is my biggest problem with only allowing POS in .4 and below. It isn't so much the "risk" as the "mindless" aspect. We have a group of players in this game who do nothing but run around and blow things up for a cheap thrill. There is no RP involved. There is no "big alliance" goal involved. They just blow things up. No purpose. No grand motivation other then their cheap thrill.
There are alot of people who play Eve who just don't play like that. Where is the economy we're supposed to have? Where is the stock market? Where is the financial risk? PvP is certainly part of Eve but it isn't the ONLY part and thats something many people seem to forget.
Someone posted in another thread that there are so many people into PvP they shouldn't even have to worry about .5 and above because they have endless PvP in 0.0 -.4. I agree 100% with this view. If I thought they were really fighting for something..... ANYTHING..... I'd feel different. But as of yet no one has shown me anything to the contrary.
Quote:
"Sosona is a rare exception and not the type of player this game caters towards."
Rod how do you know WHO this game caters too? I'd like to think it caters to everyone. I've seen nothing from CCP saying "Your a xxxxx player you don't need to bother". Eve has alot to offer we can all exist here together. We can all exist without demeaning anyone elses style of play.
Quote:
"And most of all, the fun in Eve is to be sought in the presence of risk, not the avoidance of it."
Fun is available in many different ways. Not all people play for "risk". Some play for economic conquest. Some play for X, Y or Z. We don't know peoples motivations. To say ONLY one way is right and everyone else is wrong isn't right and it isn't fair.
Quote:
"I can only accept POS to be placed in low sec if it's somehow connected with positive standing with the faction who claims the area. Actually I would like to see this rule include 0.0 too. (Why would the Gurista alow enemies to put up structures right in their domain any way?)."
I agree an excellent suggestion. These corps and alliances that want to build POS should have 9.0 or above standing and KEEP it to maintain control of the station.
CONCLUSION:
In conclusion I see no real reason to keep POS only in 0.0 - .4. The only ones arguing for it are the people who live in 0.0. In other words they want to "hog" some new content and force people out to them so they can gank them for no reason. Thats about all it boils down to. They completely discount as "not catered to" anyone who plays Eve differently from them.
Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:47:00 -
[4]
(continued from last post)
Quote:
"this discussion is stupid from the beginning...first..why would u want to build POS in empire in the first place when they have stations in just about every system you can use for free...POS are for .0 where stations are few and far between ... sometimes 1 or 2 in an entire region ... and if your playing by yourself with 2mill skill pts you sure as hell wont be able to afford to build a pos or have the skills to own it or defend it...best bet is to join an established .0 corp and stop whinning .... "
No its not stupid. Its a pretty mature conversation so far with a minimum of whining and smack talk. We need more discussions like this in Eve. First you'd want to build POS in Empire for the research stations (full stations - Kali probably). Also moon mining stations. There are moons in Empire not just 0.0.
Second for the RP aspect. A big part of Eve history is the Amarr-Minmatar war. Those of us who play RP in that venue live in the Empires. What are we supposed to do? Up and quit just to get POS? Abandon years (since beta) of work?
Who said POS are "for 0.0"?
I agree with you that someone with 2m skillpoints shouldn't expect to own a POS. They need to be so expensive and costly to run (in BOTH 0.0 AND empire) that only the largest alliances and corporations can build them.
Quote:
"POS cannot be destroyed in empire space if they can activate those shields that stop everything and only require an upkeep to keep them active. Since there is no way to starve out the POS from consumables."
They aren't immortal by any stretch of the imagination. Do you think the mineral supply in empire is unlimited? No in corp wars POS can still be destroyed in empire. There is plenty of risk in empire through corp wars and alliance wars. There are alliances based in empire for that matter.
Quote:
"So if it costs 1 billion or 2 or even 5 billion isk to build a POS in 0.5+ and using it barely pays the rent, thats fine for me. But building any POS below 0.5 is very pointless for me or a small(er) group. It will just drag some alliance or pirate group to it who will quickly kill it."
This is my biggest problem with only allowing POS in .4 and below. It isn't so much the "risk" as the "mindless" aspect. We have a group of players in this game who do nothing but run around and blow things up for a cheap thrill. There is no RP involved. There is no "big alliance" goal involved. They just blow things up. No purpose. No grand motivation other then their cheap thrill.
There are alot of people who play Eve who just don't play like that. Where is the economy we're supposed to have? Where is the stock market? Where is the financial risk? PvP is certainly part of Eve but it isn't the ONLY part and thats something many people seem to forget.
Someone posted in another thread that there are so many people into PvP they shouldn't even have to worry about .5 and above because they have endless PvP in 0.0 -.4. I agree 100% with this view. If I thought they were really fighting for something..... ANYTHING..... I'd feel different. But as of yet no one has shown me anything to the contrary.
Quote:
"Sosona is a rare exception and not the type of player this game caters towards."
Rod how do you know WHO this game caters too? I'd like to think it caters to everyone. I've seen nothing from CCP saying "Your a xxxxx player you don't need to bother". Eve has alot to offer we can all exist here together. We can all exist without demeaning anyone elses style of play.
Quote:
"And most of all, the fun in Eve is to be sought in the presence of risk, not the avoidance of it."
Fun is available in many different ways. Not all people play for "risk". Some play for economic conquest. Some play for X, Y or Z. We don't know peoples motivations. To say ONLY one way is right and everyone else is wrong isn't right and it isn't fair.
Quote:
"I can only accept POS to be placed in low sec if it's somehow connected with positive standing with the faction who claims the area. Actually I would like to see this rule include 0.0 too. (Why would the Gurista alow enemies to put up structures right in their domain any way?)."
I agree an excellent suggestion. These corps and alliances that want to build POS should have 9.0 or above standing and KEEP it to maintain control of the station.
CONCLUSION:
In conclusion I see no real reason to keep POS only in 0.0 - .4. The only ones arguing for it are the people who live in 0.0. In other words they want to "hog" some new content and force people out to them so they can gank them for no reason. Thats about all it boils down to. They completely discount as "not catered to" anyone who plays Eve differently from them.
Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:48:00 -
[5]
I would like to ask those who advocate POS in only 0.0 - 0.4 to answer a simple question for me.
HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS IN .8 - .5 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY
For the players who advocate POS in .5 - .8 systems (Empire) I'd like you to answer this question.
HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS ONLY IN 0.0 - .4 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY
When you answer post as an INDIVIDUAL describing how YOU DIRECTLY are affected by one or the other not some big "theory" of Eve gaming. How are YOU or YOUR CORP directly affected by this?
Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE and I do not represent PIE in my statements. As someone who lives and wars heavily in empire space I have a real interest in this topic. Thank you for your politeness and mature comments.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 21:48:00 -
[6]
I would like to ask those who advocate POS in only 0.0 - 0.4 to answer a simple question for me.
HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS IN .8 - .5 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY
For the players who advocate POS in .5 - .8 systems (Empire) I'd like you to answer this question.
HOW WOULD HAVING STATIONS ONLY IN 0.0 - .4 SPACE AFFECT MY GAMEPLAY
When you answer post as an INDIVIDUAL describing how YOU DIRECTLY are affected by one or the other not some big "theory" of Eve gaming. How are YOU or YOUR CORP directly affected by this?
Archbishop
Captain
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They are not the views of PIE and I do not represent PIE in my statements. As someone who lives and wars heavily in empire space I have a real interest in this topic. Thank you for your politeness and mature comments.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:39:00 -
[7]
Quote:
"I agree with you that there's a case for pos in high sec, altho one could also reason for PIA to just take its RP war into 0.4 as far as pos go. After all, it might even be viable imo to weave an RP event thread around PIE getting Amarr Empire permission to form a three-system eclave of military complex within amarr-protected apce (0.4).. I think you would like that right ?"
Thanks for the nice words Rod I appreciate it. I figured no one had taken into account the RP Empire guys in this discussion. Sorry my post was so long I hadn't intended it to be so.
I do agree POS should be PROJECT ORIENTED requiring massive resources and workers to build and maintain. I don't want to see systems with 20 stations in them. I mean that would be insane and can you imagine the lag?
Individuals can certainly play EVE alone and solo it, I did so for months, but they can't expect to get everything an alliance can get.
I look at MINERALS as the big 0.0 advantage. Thats another reason I don't want to see stations in .4 and below only. 0.0 already has the high-end ores. While some do ninja-mine out there and make good money most people stay in empire.
Likewise with POS if they were only allowed in 0.0 - .4 and they eventually included stations (kali?) that had research offices I'd recommend that if they were only in .4 and below that no person in a 0.0 alliance corp could then have research slots in empire space. You either have it or you don't and shouldn't have the benefit of both since the empire people don't have the benefit of both.
Otherwise we're in agreement on many things. PvP is a big part of Eve but not the only part. But theres enough of Eve for everyone. I do want to see POS heavily regulated and expensed so it doesn't become like release here where in two months everyone had a Battleship. At least now with capitalism and scarcity the new T2 ships and heavy cruisers will be super expensive. It's nice to have something to "work toward" and accomplish.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These are my own views as a longtime EVE player and beta tester and are not the official view of PIE CORPORATION.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:39:00 -
[8]
Quote:
"I agree with you that there's a case for pos in high sec, altho one could also reason for PIA to just take its RP war into 0.4 as far as pos go. After all, it might even be viable imo to weave an RP event thread around PIE getting Amarr Empire permission to form a three-system eclave of military complex within amarr-protected apce (0.4).. I think you would like that right ?"
Thanks for the nice words Rod I appreciate it. I figured no one had taken into account the RP Empire guys in this discussion. Sorry my post was so long I hadn't intended it to be so.
I do agree POS should be PROJECT ORIENTED requiring massive resources and workers to build and maintain. I don't want to see systems with 20 stations in them. I mean that would be insane and can you imagine the lag?
Individuals can certainly play EVE alone and solo it, I did so for months, but they can't expect to get everything an alliance can get.
I look at MINERALS as the big 0.0 advantage. Thats another reason I don't want to see stations in .4 and below only. 0.0 already has the high-end ores. While some do ninja-mine out there and make good money most people stay in empire.
Likewise with POS if they were only allowed in 0.0 - .4 and they eventually included stations (kali?) that had research offices I'd recommend that if they were only in .4 and below that no person in a 0.0 alliance corp could then have research slots in empire space. You either have it or you don't and shouldn't have the benefit of both since the empire people don't have the benefit of both.
Otherwise we're in agreement on many things. PvP is a big part of Eve but not the only part. But theres enough of Eve for everyone. I do want to see POS heavily regulated and expensed so it doesn't become like release here where in two months everyone had a Battleship. At least now with capitalism and scarcity the new T2 ships and heavy cruisers will be super expensive. It's nice to have something to "work toward" and accomplish.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These are my own views as a longtime EVE player and beta tester and are not the official view of PIE CORPORATION.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:45:00 -
[9]
Quote:
"Setting up your base in 0.0 is like staking a claim to a section of Oregon in the 1800s, instead of standing in the middle of London and claiming an acre for yourself. A little late"
Yes and no Bob. I almost agree with you on the mining issue as there are many mining stations available in Empire. Really the only real need in Empire is RESEARCH STATIONS. You have to admit there is a shortage there. I'll be the first to confess I have some "300 run" things in my slots because I can't afford to lose them. Even at 9,000 a week now they're honestly with 10x that when you need one.
From a RP sense I know it would be nice to have an HQ in Amarr space. I'd also like to see the Minmatar have an HQ in Pator or somewhere. Something we can protect with sentries and stuff. To enhance the RP aspect of Eve. You must admit with 20+ wars and constant battle we're not exactly "empire carebears". We play Eve a little differently using the storyline but we do have alot of PvP and combat.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These are my personal views and not the official position of PIE CORPORATION.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.10 22:45:00 -
[10]
Quote:
"Setting up your base in 0.0 is like staking a claim to a section of Oregon in the 1800s, instead of standing in the middle of London and claiming an acre for yourself. A little late"
Yes and no Bob. I almost agree with you on the mining issue as there are many mining stations available in Empire. Really the only real need in Empire is RESEARCH STATIONS. You have to admit there is a shortage there. I'll be the first to confess I have some "300 run" things in my slots because I can't afford to lose them. Even at 9,000 a week now they're honestly with 10x that when you need one.
From a RP sense I know it would be nice to have an HQ in Amarr space. I'd also like to see the Minmatar have an HQ in Pator or somewhere. Something we can protect with sentries and stuff. To enhance the RP aspect of Eve. You must admit with 20+ wars and constant battle we're not exactly "empire carebears". We play Eve a little differently using the storyline but we do have alot of PvP and combat.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These are my personal views and not the official position of PIE CORPORATION.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:20:00 -
[11]
Quote:
"Putting a POS somewhere where the overpowered NPC's will protect you is, frankly, a ridiculous idea. They security systems alone would be next to useless, compared to a concord gank fleet."
Drunkenmaster (hi btw).
They wont be protected by the NPC's in a war situation. That was my point regarding "risk". There is risk even in Empire space. Look at my corp with 20+ wars. In fact I was blown up (again) about 45 minutes ago by a Rupture (poor Maller). Even using game mechanics there is a TON of risk in Empire.
Perhaps the solution is put sentry guns by POS? That way only corps / alliances at war with you can actually attack you? Isn't that the way it is in real life? You get attacked? You declare war? You fight til someone is wasted?
I do think this "you can't declare war until someone is killed in 24 hours" deal is stupid imo. But I do believe war should be declared (even in 0.0) before people can just run around ganking everything in sight.
As for mercenary corps they could also "declare war" and attack. So they're not losing anything.
The only real people who are affected by this are the people who live and work in Empire only for whatever reason. They'd have to completely change their gameplay and maybe even leave their corps and friends if they wanted to be involved in a POS. I just don't agree with that.
I do agree they should be VERY expensive to build and maintain. Small corps and individuals should not be able to build them realistically. HOWEVER if a small corp wanted to join 10 other small corps and form an alliance and build one THAT would be acceptable.
But they're not meant to be "houses" the other poster was EXACTLY on target with that.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These comments are my own as a longtime player and beta tester. They do not represent the views of PIE CORPORATION.
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS
PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2004.10.11 02:20:00 -
[12]
Quote:
"Putting a POS somewhere where the overpowered NPC's will protect you is, frankly, a ridiculous idea. They security systems alone would be next to useless, compared to a concord gank fleet."
Drunkenmaster (hi btw).
They wont be protected by the NPC's in a war situation. That was my point regarding "risk". There is risk even in Empire space. Look at my corp with 20+ wars. In fact I was blown up (again) about 45 minutes ago by a Rupture (poor Maller). Even using game mechanics there is a TON of risk in Empire.
Perhaps the solution is put sentry guns by POS? That way only corps / alliances at war with you can actually attack you? Isn't that the way it is in real life? You get attacked? You declare war? You fight til someone is wasted?
I do think this "you can't declare war until someone is killed in 24 hours" deal is stupid imo. But I do believe war should be declared (even in 0.0) before people can just run around ganking everything in sight.
As for mercenary corps they could also "declare war" and attack. So they're not losing anything.
The only real people who are affected by this are the people who live and work in Empire only for whatever reason. They'd have to completely change their gameplay and maybe even leave their corps and friends if they wanted to be involved in a POS. I just don't agree with that.
I do agree they should be VERY expensive to build and maintain. Small corps and individuals should not be able to build them realistically. HOWEVER if a small corp wanted to join 10 other small corps and form an alliance and build one THAT would be acceptable.
But they're not meant to be "houses" the other poster was EXACTLY on target with that.
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:01:00 -
[13]
Quote:
"There is a risk of getting shot at, yes, but those risks are so infinitesimal, especially when you're in the 100% safety of a control tower's forcefield, that you have nothing to worry about."
Discorporation [EVOL] has made an excellent point here that I failed to consider. In .4 and below there are still defenses possible.
In fact in looking at it from his view I can see where only a really giant fleet coming along would be able to dent one of these things.
I've never participated in a player-owned station attack (I moved from 0.0 before they came in) so perhaps Disco or Digital or someone can explain them to me. I believe they take MASSIVE amounts of firepower to conquer. I mean its not something a few stray ships can accomplish correct?
So I will reevaluate my position and now agree that .4 and below would be best. I make this reevaluation based on the newfound knowledge that you can still be "protected" from the random gankers yet in a real war you'll really be at risk. My concern about the random killers is based on "pirate experiences" with pirates in my past. With a sentry tower (or 10) that isn't such a concern is it?
I have one question. Is there a limit to the number of sentry towers you can place (and defense shield things)? Can you really fortify a base so it is uber-protected?
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:01:00 -
[14]
Quote:
"There is a risk of getting shot at, yes, but those risks are so infinitesimal, especially when you're in the 100% safety of a control tower's forcefield, that you have nothing to worry about."
Discorporation [EVOL] has made an excellent point here that I failed to consider. In .4 and below there are still defenses possible.
In fact in looking at it from his view I can see where only a really giant fleet coming along would be able to dent one of these things.
I've never participated in a player-owned station attack (I moved from 0.0 before they came in) so perhaps Disco or Digital or someone can explain them to me. I believe they take MASSIVE amounts of firepower to conquer. I mean its not something a few stray ships can accomplish correct?
So I will reevaluate my position and now agree that .4 and below would be best. I make this reevaluation based on the newfound knowledge that you can still be "protected" from the random gankers yet in a real war you'll really be at risk. My concern about the random killers is based on "pirate experiences" with pirates in my past. With a sentry tower (or 10) that isn't such a concern is it?
I have one question. Is there a limit to the number of sentry towers you can place (and defense shield things)? Can you really fortify a base so it is uber-protected?
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my personal views and not those of PIE CORPORATION
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:19:00 -
[15]
DarkMatter posted:
Quote:
"I'm already not allowed to mine high end ores, or should not be allowed to mine in BS's, what else do you guys not want me to have?"
Dark thats not entirely true. You can mine anywhere you want if your willing to accept the risks. I'll be the first to admit I've gone out in 0.0 space (in an Omen with an alt) to mine higher end ores. It's risk and I "ninja mine" but its doable. It is alot of work and I have been blown up (by NPC's no players). It does have financial rewards. When Zydrine was 9,000 each a couple of months ago you can bet I was out there mining (and running) in 0.0.
So your not "prohibited" from mining in 0.0. I have to agree with Hardin also that there are many near-abandoned 0.0 - 0.4 systems. You just have to watch local and have an escape plan in case danger arrives. You'll lose some ships thats a given but you can also have fun doing it.
The more I think about it now the more I'm glad I changed my position on this issue. Considering we'll have defensive capabilities for these POS theres no reason ANYONE can't put them in .4 systems. I'm hoping a veteran 0.0 player posts an answer to my question about the forces needed to conquer a player station (in my last post). I'm assuming it'll take more then a few battleships to dent a POS especially if Oppressor towers are shooting back.
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:19:00 -
[16]
DarkMatter posted:
Quote:
"I'm already not allowed to mine high end ores, or should not be allowed to mine in BS's, what else do you guys not want me to have?"
Dark thats not entirely true. You can mine anywhere you want if your willing to accept the risks. I'll be the first to admit I've gone out in 0.0 space (in an Omen with an alt) to mine higher end ores. It's risk and I "ninja mine" but its doable. It is alot of work and I have been blown up (by NPC's no players). It does have financial rewards. When Zydrine was 9,000 each a couple of months ago you can bet I was out there mining (and running) in 0.0.
So your not "prohibited" from mining in 0.0. I have to agree with Hardin also that there are many near-abandoned 0.0 - 0.4 systems. You just have to watch local and have an escape plan in case danger arrives. You'll lose some ships thats a given but you can also have fun doing it.
The more I think about it now the more I'm glad I changed my position on this issue. Considering we'll have defensive capabilities for these POS theres no reason ANYONE can't put them in .4 systems. I'm hoping a veteran 0.0 player posts an answer to my question about the forces needed to conquer a player station (in my last post). I'm assuming it'll take more then a few battleships to dent a POS especially if Oppressor towers are shooting back.
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:55:00 -
[17]
Quote:
"Final point: a reasonably well defended base cannot be taken down by random gankers. If someone wanted to take your base they'd need to bring a fleet. Then you should be prepared to counter that fleet with one of your own.. "
Thank you both Avon and Digital for those answers. You've confirmed for me that my "change of heart" on this issue was a correct judgement on my part.
To all who don't see this let me explain. My big "argument" for allowing the POS into .5 - .8 was the fact the "random ganker" could come along and just gank you for no reason. Digital has pretty well confirmed thats not the case. Thats all I care about. If a fleet shows up it's probably a war anyway and you can expect to be attacked so no surprise there.
So 0.4 to 0.0 is ok with me now. Thanks guys!
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Posted - 2004.10.12 00:55:00 -
[18]
Quote:
"Final point: a reasonably well defended base cannot be taken down by random gankers. If someone wanted to take your base they'd need to bring a fleet. Then you should be prepared to counter that fleet with one of your own.. "
Thank you both Avon and Digital for those answers. You've confirmed for me that my "change of heart" on this issue was a correct judgement on my part.
To all who don't see this let me explain. My big "argument" for allowing the POS into .5 - .8 was the fact the "random ganker" could come along and just gank you for no reason. Digital has pretty well confirmed thats not the case. Thats all I care about. If a fleet shows up it's probably a war anyway and you can expect to be attacked so no surprise there.
So 0.4 to 0.0 is ok with me now. Thanks guys!
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Posted - 2004.10.13 02:32:00 -
[19]
DarkMatter I was once against the "only in 0.0" view too (look back at my posts). But I've been brought around to realize that in reality even the carebear industrialists can use them in .4 with proper defenses.
Look at my case. I'm in an Empire based corp with 20+ empire wars. But there are plenty of 0.0-0.4 systems in the Amarrian Empire thus there is a real chance for us to have a POS. As a chief Industrialist I have a vested interest in constructing a mining station. Being in Empire space if situated properly it won't be possible for the majority of 0.0 "gankers" to even get to it because they'd have to fly through empire to get to it. If they're true "gankers" they have the -9.0+ security standing to go with it.
With defense shield generators and Oppressor tower sentries I'm confident any station built by my corp will stand up to all but the mightiest Minmatar fleet. I'm sure the Minmatar terrorists are also planning right now for a secret base in one of their illegal strongholds in the Amarrian region of Heimatar (a little roleplaying there).
You've said you are being "denied" access to content. Thats just not true at all. I'd like you to open the map and see how far the nearest .4 system is from whereever you live. I'd guess its within 10 jumps. Its not that far.
The POS were designed to be work tools not trophies. While my desire to have one in Empire for Amarr (as a trophy - catch the flag sort of thing) I see that they are work tools for mining and development outside of Empire space. We have mining barges being introduced for Empire space and alot of market and trade enhancements directed toward Industrialists. I think we'll be fine.
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Posted - 2004.10.13 02:32:00 -
[20]
DarkMatter I was once against the "only in 0.0" view too (look back at my posts). But I've been brought around to realize that in reality even the carebear industrialists can use them in .4 with proper defenses.
Look at my case. I'm in an Empire based corp with 20+ empire wars. But there are plenty of 0.0-0.4 systems in the Amarrian Empire thus there is a real chance for us to have a POS. As a chief Industrialist I have a vested interest in constructing a mining station. Being in Empire space if situated properly it won't be possible for the majority of 0.0 "gankers" to even get to it because they'd have to fly through empire to get to it. If they're true "gankers" they have the -9.0+ security standing to go with it.
With defense shield generators and Oppressor tower sentries I'm confident any station built by my corp will stand up to all but the mightiest Minmatar fleet. I'm sure the Minmatar terrorists are also planning right now for a secret base in one of their illegal strongholds in the Amarrian region of Heimatar (a little roleplaying there).
You've said you are being "denied" access to content. Thats just not true at all. I'd like you to open the map and see how far the nearest .4 system is from whereever you live. I'd guess its within 10 jumps. Its not that far.
The POS were designed to be work tools not trophies. While my desire to have one in Empire for Amarr (as a trophy - catch the flag sort of thing) I see that they are work tools for mining and development outside of Empire space. We have mining barges being introduced for Empire space and alot of market and trade enhancements directed toward Industrialists. I think we'll be fine.
Archbishop
PIE CORPORATION
These views are my own and not those of PIE CORPORATION
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