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Why are people whinin about cloaks?

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jemos Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.18 19:14:00 - [1] First of all I choose this forum because of the "tactics" part. Now to subject. In both assembly hall and F&I forums, are alot of threads for nerfing cloaks. Why? Is it because of the Black op class ships that suddenly made cloakers a viable option? Or have everyone suddenly decided that macroratters/afk cloakers is the largest problem in eve? With the afk cloaker issue, Risk vs reward always shows up. Personal opinion: if you don't wanna risk flying in a system with a single hostile (yes, alot whine about a single hostile cloaking), what makes you supposed to reap the reward (ratting anyone?)? So, I'd like people that think cloaking should be nerfed to write not an essay, but a short hood argumentative text about why cloaking should be nerfed. Plese, not anything about that cloaking shouldn't be nerfed. I personally don't think cloaking should be nerfed. Originally by: FireT If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.08.18 19:30:00 - [2] Because they are ****ing bears
Mr Reason	Posted - 2009.08.18 19:51:00 - [3] Edited by: Mr Reason on 18/08/2009 19:51:51 Cloaks as such are fine, being able to afk cloak 23/7 is not so great. Ofcourse then they come with the "if he's AFK how can he hurt you" which ofcourse is backwards reasoning, yet people use it a lot as it seems to make sense. It doesn't. Thing is ofcourse that it's a very effective tactic, especially when done on an alt you don't (have to) control. And that is why people are so against changing it, it's not that they can't see how rediculous it is, it's more than because they make use of it they'll defend it till the end of times. There's some really decent ideas out there (specifically this thread) that do not make the life of a cloaker impossible, it just makes it more difficult to be afk while doing it. I'm sure there'll be a ton of replies to this about how I'm wrong etc but again, the people defending it are the people (ab)using it. And as I stated in that linked thread, 80% of my chars fly covops, 5 of them fly recons on regular basis so it's not like I'm trying to 'nerf' something I can't/don't use myself.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.08.18 20:12:00 - [4] Remove local.
Gibbo5771	Posted - 2009.08.18 20:28:00 - [5] cloaks do not need nerfed, there is F U C K all wrong with them, why nerf something called cloak, you may aswell change the name otherwise, they are a tool to help run gatecamps and hide when they dont want to fight, which is a viable tactic in my opinion. When i solo 0.0, i always fit a cloak, not to hide, to pick my fight and avoid what i cant match (you know, that big 30 man blob with the hic on the gate?!) So in short, nerf cloaks and you may aswell take them out the game or change the name to something more relevent, "Sorta-Cloak", with the description, "Still in testing by concord and doesent quite work yet, decloaking randomly may occur by natural gases in space" Sarcasm ^, leave them be
Kurfin	Posted - 2009.08.18 21:06:00 - [6] I don't get how you can cry nerf about a module that everyone can use? Next they'll be whining about damage controls.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.18 21:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/08/2009 21:17:26 AFK cloaking is fine and necessary as long as local chat exists. If you wanna change AFK cloaking local chat needs to me removed first.
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.18 22:06:00 - [8] Because they don't have falcon to kick around any more. __________________________________________________________
Turin Caldari Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.08.19 00:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/08/2009 21:17:26 AFK cloaking is fine and necessary as long as local chat exists. If you wanna change AFK cloaking local chat needs to me removed first. Lemme guess. Your a pirate who is mad that you have to keep working for targets, and have a hard time ganking the carebears? Waaaaa. I love seeing posts like yours. Your whining tears sustain me in bad times.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.19 00:31:00 - [10] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/08/2009 00:31:49 Originally by: Turin Lemme guess. Your a pirate who is mad that you have to keep working for targets, and have a hard time ganking the carebears? Waaaaa. I love seeing posts like yours. Your whining tears sustain me in bad times. Lulz, did you get your poor ship violenced by the bad people? I know reading is out of fashion these days, but where you saw me whining? I'm just afk-cloaking and keep you from ratting Good luck trying to get it nerfed, not gonna happen.

Turin Caldari Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.08.19 01:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/08/2009 00:31:49 Originally by: Turin Lemme guess. Your a pirate who is mad that you have to keep working for targets, and have a hard time ganking the carebears? Waaaaa. I love seeing posts like yours. Your whining tears sustain me in bad times. Lulz, did you get your poor ship violenced by the bad people? I know reading is out of fashion these days, but where you saw me whining? I'm just afk-cloaking and keep you from ratting Good luck trying to get it nerfed, not gonna happen. Your the one whining about local. And yes, anyone who at this point, posts about local, is whining. I dont care about the cloaks tbh. I think its kinda lame they can sit cloaked AFK all day, but whatever. But the local whiners make me laugh.
Tortugan F9X	Posted - 2009.08.19 01:28:00 - [12] I have no problem with being able to stay cloaked and stay safe. I have a problem with playing the game AFK. This is the same reason I don't like that Amarr never need to realod if they're using the right ammo at a POS bash- if you're playing the game, you should be at your keyboard and engaged- not rubbing one off on your HD tv the next room over. ---- Need Mercenaries? Contact me in-game to hire Internal Anarchy. Killboard
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.19 03:17:00 - [13] Quote: rubbing one off on your HD tv the next room over. What if we're rubbing one off while alt + tabbed out, yet at the keyboard?
TheMaster42 Lobster Gazelle Unicorn	Posted - 2009.08.19 03:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Davina Braben Remove local. This. Nobody would have to stay logged on 23/7 if local didn't instantly tell when you entered the system. Also the address book for showing when you logged on.
Allahs Warrior Gallente Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests	Posted - 2009.08.19 04:02:00 - [15] remove local and allow special scan probes to provide warpins on cloaked ships within 10km.
Robert0288 Caldari g guild Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.08.19 05:54:00 - [16] cloaks are nerfed as it is. Leave 'em alone
Cedric Allrian	Posted - 2009.08.19 07:31:00 - [17] Edited by: Cedric Allrian on 19/08/2009 07:32:46 In my opinion cloaking is ok. In fact, if you nerf cloaking to be scannable, why shouldn't there be a cloak at all? If there is the possiblility to be scanned down, then i don't need a cloak. What would it bring as value then? yeah, and i like chatting in local while i do missions/mining/production.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.19 07:32:00 - [18] The only complaint I have on cloaks is that they are easy to buy but sometimes hard to relist and resell with a profit - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Shanija	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:29:00 - [19] People don't like AFK cloaking because it's unbalanced as a strategy - it takes a lot more effort to defend against (having a force available and ready to respond immediately around the clock to defend vulnerable ships) than it does to execute (logging on your alt and cloaking at a safe, then tabbing back to gank someone now and then).
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.19 22:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Cedric Allrian In fact, if you nerf cloaking to be scannable, why shouldn't there be a cloak at all? If there is the possiblility to be scanned down, then i don't need a cloak. What would it bring as value then? I think that's what they're getting at: nerf them out of existence...

Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.19 23:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/08/2009 23:19:47 Originally by: Turin Your the one whining about local. And yes, anyone who at this point, posts about local, is whining. Local as an intel tool is broken, and the ones that are whining are actually the failbears in 0.0 that dont deserve their space in the first place I'm not whining, I'm merely stating a fact that is common knowledge. In fact, as soon as local is removed AFK-cloaking as a tactic is effectively removed as well, thats what you bears want, no?
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.08.20 00:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Omara Otawan as soon as local is removed AFK-cloaking as a tactic is effectively removed as well This. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.08.20 00:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Davina Braben Remove local. THIS
Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.20 06:15:00 - [24] I fly Arazu, decently...I feel like a god. I can ss and cloak and you are not finding me. I can travel through highsec and lose WTs at camps, even inties(barely). I can sneak up on ratters and through bubbles. Only time I'm vulnerable is when I'm not cloaked. And I cna make that tricky. My damps still suck though. What I have notice as a challenge to my omnipotence is cloak Raven ratters...**ing ***s. And afk SBs... Cloak needs an afk nerf. Maybe some sort of long term cloak probe so we have to move around every 30 seconds? Just like subs in WW2 have depth charges and sonar. Until then, it's like the Atlantic coast with the free-roaming U-boat wolfpacks, turn lights off, go indoors and hope ships don't sink. 7
STINKYPIEMCSTINKER	Posted - 2009.08.20 15:49:00 - [25] It pains me to say this as one who is primarily interested in killing bears rather than bear-ing, but... The directional scanner has been severely nerfed with this most recent patch. Scan probes are now more powerful and imbalanced than ever, and in my eyes the 'new' scan probe mechanics had the effect of making probes very very powerful, nevermind this new directional scanner nerf. I agree with the assertion that to remove afk cloaking as a valid tactic, one must first remove local or add a local delay... And as such, with the directional scanner nerf taken into consideration, I feel that removing local or adding a delay would severely imbalance 0.0 and lowsec in favor of the attacker. That's right, it wouldn't be fair for the carebears. The attacker already has scanprobes, an extremely powerful tool when used properly (in tandem with a range adjusted directional scan), and very effective as a bear killing tool. Giving the attacker a local delay or a WH style local would tip the balance given the directional nerf. Further, AFK cloaking isn't that big a deal. The carebears need to grow a pair and deal with it. Fit a point to your carebearing ship and be prepared to fight back, or fly something fast to align and warp so that the evil cloaky recon or stealth bomber won't be able to catch you. Also, here's a thought; find out where your adversaries are doing their carebearing (because they are carebearing, somewhere), and afk cloak in their systems.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:01:00 - [26] Quote: Fit a point to your carebearing ship and be prepared to fight back, or fly something fast to align and warp so that the evil cloaky recon or stealth bomber won't be able to catch you And your magic recipe for those low sec L4 missioning in a battleship that can be neuted and owned by everyone is? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
STINKYPIEMCSTINKER	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Fit a point to your carebearing ship and be prepared to fight back, or fly something fast to align and warp so that the evil cloaky recon or stealth bomber won't be able to catch you And your magic recipe for those low sec L4 missioning in a battleship that can be neuted and owned by everyone is? I wasn't aware that afk cloakers had a presence in lowsec. I've only seen it in lucrative nullsec ratting systems or station systems. As to your question; I agree with your implied point entirely. It is pretty much impossible to safely run missions in lowsec, and that's entirely because of how powerful scanprobes are at present. I still find it hard to believe that this directional scanner nerf is real. They are justifying it "because of exploits", doesn't make any sense. Right now, if you want to run missions or sites in lowsec, you pretty much must dock or cloak as soon as local spikes; scanprobes are that powerful and are already extremely difficult to detect (and in two hours they will be even moreso). Anyways, the solution is to mission in highsec, just find a good agent in a 0.5 or 0.6 and you're all set.
savings1122	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:18:00 - [28] Originally by: STINKYPIEMCSTINKER WH style local this !!!!
Flair Firestar	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:56:00 - [29] What actually are they nerfing on the scanner? I read through the notes an couldn¦t really find any change to the scanner (assuming you mean the directional one)
Zal Dakkar	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:59:00 - [30] Edited by: Zal Dakkar on 20/08/2009 17:03:25 Originally by: Shanija People don't like AFK cloaking because it's unbalanced as a strategy - it takes a lot more effort to defend against (having a force available and ready to respond immediately around the clock to defend vulnerable ships) than it does to execute (logging on your alt and cloaking at a safe, then tabbing back to gank someone now and then). This. In regards to the discussion about local chat, I would support getting rid of it (or going to WH style). It would definitely change the game drastically, but ultimately for the better in my opinion. Local simply gives far too much intel, and does so instantly, with next to zero effort involved. Getting rid of local would be a pretty big nerf to alt scouts as you would need to be fairly active in observing a gate to see if people come through. It definitely gives more advantage to the attacker, but I think that ratters, miners, missioners, and plexers would adapt to the change and come up with defensive strategies. Additionally, it gives an advantage to cov ops enabled ships as they would be near undetectable (except for jumping in/out or dropping probes) until they decide to engage. One would hope it might make it easier to ambush an enemy gang and result in more engagements, as opposed to gangs running away unless they have a significant advantage. At the same time it may also make it harder to ever detect the presence of an enemy gang and would increase the need for real scouting. Even if local is removed I still think they should add probes that are able to find cloaked ships. Obviously, they would need to have limitations (long scan time, etc), but afk cloaking for hours or days at a time, especially in non-cov ops ships, is a lame tactic.... not to mention it wastes bandwidth, cpu, and energy IRL.



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