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J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.16 21:37:00 - [121] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 22:02:56 Originally by: Sanften Berg Each player gets 1,000 ISK on creation. If they give that ISK to another player, then log out, delete, and remake their character, they are putting money into the universe through player->player trading. I believe that is the one thing you left out. You may send the 10million ISK to Sanften Berg. Well you are confident I will give you that, lets see if it is misplaced or not. so lets look at it, two starting characters: Player A 1000isk (given by NPC) Player B 1000isk (given by NPC) Total isk 2000 Player a gives Player B 1000isk Player A 0 isk Player B 2000isk Total isk 2000isk no extra isk has been created. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.16 21:37:00 - [122] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 22:02:56 Originally by: Sanften Berg Each player gets 1,000 ISK on creation. If they give that ISK to another player, then log out, delete, and remake their character, they are putting money into the universe through player->player trading. I believe that is the one thing you left out. You may send the 10million ISK to Sanften Berg. Well you are confident I will give you that, lets see if it is misplaced or not. so lets look at it, two starting characters: Player A 1000isk (given by NPC) Player B 1000isk (given by NPC) Total isk 2000 Player a gives Player B 1000isk Player A 0 isk Player B 2000isk Total isk 2000isk no extra isk has been created. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Sanften Berg	Posted - 2004.10.16 22:02:00 - [123] Are the newbie corps actually docked 1,000 isk from their accounts once the player is created? Otherwise, it's just appearing from the aether. Repeated trades such as I mentioned will introduce new isk into the economy that wasn't there before. Although I accept your premise that it's still not player->player trading which is creating the isk. For which I ask for a concillatory prize of 100,000 isk. :)
Sanften Berg	Posted - 2004.10.16 22:02:00 - [124] Are the newbie corps actually docked 1,000 isk from their accounts once the player is created? Otherwise, it's just appearing from the aether. Repeated trades such as I mentioned will introduce new isk into the economy that wasn't there before. Although I accept your premise that it's still not player->player trading which is creating the isk. For which I ask for a concillatory prize of 100,000 isk. :)
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.16 22:24:00 - [125] 100k for getting it wrong. Not in this world. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.16 22:24:00 - [126] 100k for getting it wrong. Not in this world. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Dreck Morrison	Posted - 2004.10.17 06:21:00 - [127] Well today I did a trade with another player that affected the amount of ISK in the game. I traded some Schmoe in Sinq Liason 720,000 Nocx for his 350/unit bid. I got the message that "The items are being returned to your account due to the buyer lacking the funds to purchase them". Now, I also know that he was fined by CCP 10% of the trade value for not having the funds to cover his order. Thus ISK can be destroyed due to an attempted player to player trade. Just thought you would wanna add that one to the list of how ISK comes and goes from the world.
Dreck Morrison	Posted - 2004.10.17 06:21:00 - [128] Well today I did a trade with another player that affected the amount of ISK in the game. I traded some Schmoe in Sinq Liason 720,000 Nocx for his 350/unit bid. I got the message that "The items are being returned to your account due to the buyer lacking the funds to purchase them". Now, I also know that he was fined by CCP 10% of the trade value for not having the funds to cover his order. Thus ISK can be destroyed due to an attempted player to player trade. Just thought you would wanna add that one to the list of how ISK comes and goes from the world.
Andramos	Posted - 2004.10.17 08:16:00 - [129] I'll give it a shot. :) It all has to do with Bartering. Player 1 owns a shield extender and seeks a cargo expander. Player 2 owns a cargo expander, but does not need a shield extender. Instead Player 2 seeks a missile launcher. Player 3 owns a missile launcher and seeks a shield extender. This is a simple bartering tree. The tree could extend between thousands of players all wanting and needing something else requiring multiple thousands of trades. Had ISK not existed, you might be paid in items, meaning more trading. Now you bring ISK into the picture. Instead of getting an item for services rendered (Killing an NPC Pirate), you recieve ISK from NPCs. Now, the next situation: Player 1 needs megacyte. Player 2 has a mining operation. Player 1 has to compensate Player 2 for his mining operations, therefor ISK was invented as a symbol of 'wealth' or 'value' in comparison with the rest of the community. In short, Player 2 does not have to compensate for his mining operations, but Player 1 has to compensate Player 2 for the minerals. Therefore the minerals introduced into the universe by mining is ISK itself; and is more than likely of more value than the mining service provided so Player 2 will not recieve full value of minerals. (In terms of the value of the minerals in a final product has a higher value) So 'wealth' or 'value' (ISK) was gained by Player 1 from Player 2. Hopefully this makes sense :) Really though, ISK itself cannot be introduced through player to player transactions. However ISK in it's truest form can be. I think I'm confusing myself now so I'll stop.
Andramos	Posted - 2004.10.17 08:16:00 - [130] I'll give it a shot. :) It all has to do with Bartering. Player 1 owns a shield extender and seeks a cargo expander. Player 2 owns a cargo expander, but does not need a shield extender. Instead Player 2 seeks a missile launcher. Player 3 owns a missile launcher and seeks a shield extender. This is a simple bartering tree. The tree could extend between thousands of players all wanting and needing something else requiring multiple thousands of trades. Had ISK not existed, you might be paid in items, meaning more trading. Now you bring ISK into the picture. Instead of getting an item for services rendered (Killing an NPC Pirate), you recieve ISK from NPCs. Now, the next situation: Player 1 needs megacyte. Player 2 has a mining operation. Player 1 has to compensate Player 2 for his mining operations, therefor ISK was invented as a symbol of 'wealth' or 'value' in comparison with the rest of the community. In short, Player 2 does not have to compensate for his mining operations, but Player 1 has to compensate Player 2 for the minerals. Therefore the minerals introduced into the universe by mining is ISK itself; and is more than likely of more value than the mining service provided so Player 2 will not recieve full value of minerals. (In terms of the value of the minerals in a final product has a higher value) So 'wealth' or 'value' (ISK) was gained by Player 1 from Player 2. Hopefully this makes sense :) Really though, ISK itself cannot be introduced through player to player transactions. However ISK in it's truest form can be. I think I'm confusing myself now so I'll stop.
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:18:00 - [131] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 17/10/2004 10:22:26 Dreck Morrison, CCP = NPC. NPC took the ISK. It was never meant to be a definitive list. I wish people would read the article and the rules of the competition. They are at Eve Guardian. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:18:00 - [132] Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 17/10/2004 10:22:26 Dreck Morrison, CCP = NPC. NPC took the ISK. It was never meant to be a definitive list. I wish people would read the article and the rules of the competition. They are at Eve Guardian. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Sleepy Dane	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:31:00 - [133] Originally by: J'Maybe Keens Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 21:36:50 i dont include a lot of things it is not meant to be comprehensive, you'd still be reading the thing next week i suspect if that was attempted and it would not change the basic analysis. It is called "SIMPLE". if you wish to write the complex version for EG be my guest. The starting funds are quite obviously given to you by NPCs. No player has ever had ISK removed from their account because another player has started the game. If the ISK does not come from a player you are going to have to assume it has come from an NPC in some manner, it is just the way it is. That has been answered two or three times on this thread. Damn....you're actually right.........the cash at the start is not just there.....its it transferred by NPC and is listed in wallet as "Inheritance from Center of Advanced Studies"....... to my knowledge this sentence did not show in wallet, I could have sworn I never had it myself, and looking in my wallet checking the date that I created my character, it simply shows no record...but atm it shows a sentence....so i was wrong. dammit. My theory was that a player action (creating the account) created the ISK.........but the creation of the account didnt create it.....it triggered the transfer from an NPC to a player. imo if it wasnt listed in wallet I could have claimed the cash, since you could not prove that an NPC would have sent it (as you said yourself, you could only ASSUME that it would...), but sadly....I was wrong... "bursts out in tears" But if we need to point at a total idiot, it would be Sanften Berg........who not only steals my idea and posts later than me, but doesnt even explain the issue in it. Buy a life at Kmart dude...........but he was right on 1 point...it was only 1K cash. Still a total moron though.....
Sleepy Dane	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:31:00 - [134] Originally by: J'Maybe Keens Edited by: J'Maybe Keens on 16/10/2004 21:36:50 i dont include a lot of things it is not meant to be comprehensive, you'd still be reading the thing next week i suspect if that was attempted and it would not change the basic analysis. It is called "SIMPLE". if you wish to write the complex version for EG be my guest. The starting funds are quite obviously given to you by NPCs. No player has ever had ISK removed from their account because another player has started the game. If the ISK does not come from a player you are going to have to assume it has come from an NPC in some manner, it is just the way it is. That has been answered two or three times on this thread. Damn....you're actually right.........the cash at the start is not just there.....its it transferred by NPC and is listed in wallet as "Inheritance from Center of Advanced Studies"....... to my knowledge this sentence did not show in wallet, I could have sworn I never had it myself, and looking in my wallet checking the date that I created my character, it simply shows no record...but atm it shows a sentence....so i was wrong. dammit. My theory was that a player action (creating the account) created the ISK.........but the creation of the account didnt create it.....it triggered the transfer from an NPC to a player. imo if it wasnt listed in wallet I could have claimed the cash, since you could not prove that an NPC would have sent it (as you said yourself, you could only ASSUME that it would...), but sadly....I was wrong... "bursts out in tears" But if we need to point at a total idiot, it would be Sanften Berg........who not only steals my idea and posts later than me, but doesnt even explain the issue in it. Buy a life at Kmart dude...........but he was right on 1 point...it was only 1K cash. Still a total moron though.....
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:49:00 - [135] i dont think we need to point at any idiots (there has been one rather rude gentleman who is wrong but even he is not an idiot). Everyone is trying to work out how it can be done. The simple truth is my 10million ISK is safe. Not because I am not willing to pay it out if someone finds a method, it is just nobody is going to. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 10:49:00 - [136] i dont think we need to point at any idiots (there has been one rather rude gentleman who is wrong but even he is not an idiot). Everyone is trying to work out how it can be done. The simple truth is my 10million ISK is safe. Not because I am not willing to pay it out if someone finds a method, it is just nobody is going to. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2004.10.17 13:49:00 - [137] what are you all ppl trying to do here? If it was possible to introduce isk in the game via player trading, then It'd be an exploit (like the one Zap got banned for). Please sit down and think before trying to answer this one. Btw, was there an argument that made the author of this thread to post something like this?
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2004.10.17 13:49:00 - [138] what are you all ppl trying to do here? If it was possible to introduce isk in the game via player trading, then It'd be an exploit (like the one Zap got banned for). Please sit down and think before trying to answer this one. Btw, was there an argument that made the author of this thread to post something like this?
Shakul	Posted - 2004.10.17 16:07:00 - [139] Posted this with Rthor's post but J'Maybe Keens requested that i post here. I think i agree with Rthor... Let's say you double the isk in everyone's wallet. Have you really created anything? Yes, the number is higher, but thats all. Assuming there is no NPC interaction, price double. You created nothing. However, when people trade they increase the amount of isk, because they have increased its value, and isk is just a unit used to measure value. Haven't taken econ yet....but does that sound right? Am I missing something? Can i get 10mil too? Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay.
Shakul	Posted - 2004.10.17 16:07:00 - [140] Posted this with Rthor's post but J'Maybe Keens requested that i post here. I think i agree with Rthor... Let's say you double the isk in everyone's wallet. Have you really created anything? Yes, the number is higher, but thats all. Assuming there is no NPC interaction, price double. You created nothing. However, when people trade they increase the amount of isk, because they have increased its value, and isk is just a unit used to measure value. Haven't taken econ yet....but does that sound right? Am I missing something? Can i get 10mil too? Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay.
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 18:22:00 - [141] thanks for bringing into this thread, following two was getting more than i wanted to do in all honesty. Unfortunately "value" is divorced from the actual physical ISK. There are various explanations of this on this thread itself. I confess to running out of different ways to keep saying the same thing, so if you would review the thread and the answers given before I'd be grateful. However if someone else can explain why this has not solved the problem, I'd appreciate that also. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 18:22:00 - [142] thanks for bringing into this thread, following two was getting more than i wanted to do in all honesty. Unfortunately "value" is divorced from the actual physical ISK. There are various explanations of this on this thread itself. I confess to running out of different ways to keep saying the same thing, so if you would review the thread and the answers given before I'd be grateful. However if someone else can explain why this has not solved the problem, I'd appreciate that also. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Shakul	Posted - 2004.10.17 19:14:00 - [143] Originally by: J'Maybe Keens Unfortunately "value" is divorced from the actual physical ISK. There are various explanations of this on this thread itself. I confess to running out of different ways to keep saying the same thing, so if you would review the thread and the answers given before I'd be grateful. However if someone else can explain why this has not solved the problem, I'd appreciate that also. So you were just talking about the actual number on your wallet, or the sum of the numbers on everyone's wallet, not the real amount/value of the isk? Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay.
Shakul	Posted - 2004.10.17 19:14:00 - [144] Originally by: J'Maybe Keens Unfortunately "value" is divorced from the actual physical ISK. There are various explanations of this on this thread itself. I confess to running out of different ways to keep saying the same thing, so if you would review the thread and the answers given before I'd be grateful. However if someone else can explain why this has not solved the problem, I'd appreciate that also. So you were just talking about the actual number on your wallet, or the sum of the numbers on everyone's wallet, not the real amount/value of the isk? Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay.
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 19:28:00 - [145] yes i am talking about the actual physical quantity of ISK. ISK is the stuff that appears as a balance in your wallet. Everyting else is something else. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
J'Maybe Keens	Posted - 2004.10.17 19:28:00 - [146] yes i am talking about the actual physical quantity of ISK. ISK is the stuff that appears as a balance in your wallet. Everyting else is something else. ******** AUTHOR of the COMPLETE mineral and ore Price guide, updated weekly, see Eve Guardian for details
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2004.10.18 10:22:00 - [147] Quote: For full details of how proving me wrong can earn you 10million isk read the article and have a look at the competition details. You can transfer the 10m at your next login. This is how it is done. 1) Spawn n00b ship 2) I blow you up 3) You collect 1 trit 4) You sell it to NPC agent 5) Total trit balance has been restored to 0, but isk balance has been rised by 2isk 6) We share the isk. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2004.10.18 10:22:00 - [148] Quote: For full details of how proving me wrong can earn you 10million isk read the article and have a look at the competition details. You can transfer the 10m at your next login. This is how it is done. 1) Spawn n00b ship 2) I blow you up 3) You collect 1 trit 4) You sell it to NPC agent 5) Total trit balance has been restored to 0, but isk balance has been rised by 2isk 6) We share the isk. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Gungankllr	Posted - 2004.10.18 11:05:00 - [149] If you wire me 10 million ISK I'll make sure it ends up in the hands of NPC's. www.hadean.org
Gungankllr	Posted - 2004.10.18 11:05:00 - [150] If you wire me 10 million ISK I'll make sure it ends up in the hands of NPC's. www.hadean.org

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