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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:15:00 -
[1]
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
Many complaints are leveled at the insurance changes which have been cited as impacting most on all players as leading to a huge increase in income. Couple that with increased income poetential from the usual sources listed above and a generally safer environment in which to earn that isk and we got a problem which like today, your average players have hundreds of millions of isk or more, some of the older players stretching into the billions.
As top end sinks like bs bp's long ago became undesirable investment choices due to an oversubscribed market isk has just accumalated with the failed promise of removing unlimited bpc's from the game. We are left with tech 2 as the last of the sinks with many millions trading hands for an original bp to billion or more expected for the elite cruisers or uber mods such as PD's.
That combined with the tech 2 insurance gaps and we find our only sinks. Shiva introduces some more in the form of war costs/alliance admin costs/market taxes but I do not think that will be enough to counter the rise in portential income from new additional sources of income such as lvl 4 agents and complexes.
Even the isk sink that POS could be, are easily affordible within most alliance bugets and the convienient siting of starbases in sustems with good belts will only increase income by probably many factors as deep space ops become easier.
I think insurance for one needs changing, but also careful consideration that inline with the new isk sources, more sinks are introduced.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:15:00 -
[2]
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
Many complaints are leveled at the insurance changes which have been cited as impacting most on all players as leading to a huge increase in income. Couple that with increased income poetential from the usual sources listed above and a generally safer environment in which to earn that isk and we got a problem which like today, your average players have hundreds of millions of isk or more, some of the older players stretching into the billions.
As top end sinks like bs bp's long ago became undesirable investment choices due to an oversubscribed market isk has just accumalated with the failed promise of removing unlimited bpc's from the game. We are left with tech 2 as the last of the sinks with many millions trading hands for an original bp to billion or more expected for the elite cruisers or uber mods such as PD's.
That combined with the tech 2 insurance gaps and we find our only sinks. Shiva introduces some more in the form of war costs/alliance admin costs/market taxes but I do not think that will be enough to counter the rise in portential income from new additional sources of income such as lvl 4 agents and complexes.
Even the isk sink that POS could be, are easily affordible within most alliance bugets and the convienient siting of starbases in sustems with good belts will only increase income by probably many factors as deep space ops become easier.
I think insurance for one needs changing, but also careful consideration that inline with the new isk sources, more sinks are introduced.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
meowcat
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:21:00 -
[3]
i'm a bit cheesed off that i keep reading posts about how everyone else has become wealthy beyond all imaginings, while i still have pretty much nowt all.
Edited. Please don't try to bypass the swear filter -Zhuge
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meowcat
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:21:00 -
[4]
i'm a bit cheesed off that i keep reading posts about how everyone else has become wealthy beyond all imaginings, while i still have pretty much nowt all.
Edited. Please don't try to bypass the swear filter -Zhuge
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Meehan
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:25:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Meehan on 14/10/2004 16:28:53
ISK is overrated anyhow, meowcat.
By the way, Hakera; purchasing a T2 BPO for 10B is actually no ISK-sink, all it does is transfer ISK from your wallet to the other guy's wallet.
ISK sink is when money leaves the system alltogether, such as when you buy stuff off an NPC, repair ships or pay for insurance (at least temporary till you cash out on it), etc etc.
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Meehan
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Meehan on 14/10/2004 16:28:53
ISK is overrated anyhow, meowcat.
By the way, Hakera; purchasing a T2 BPO for 10B is actually no ISK-sink, all it does is transfer ISK from your wallet to the other guy's wallet.
ISK sink is when money leaves the system alltogether, such as when you buy stuff off an NPC, repair ships or pay for insurance (at least temporary till you cash out on it), etc etc.
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DarkMatter
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:31:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
i'm a bit cheesed off that i keep reading posts about how everyone else has become wealthy beyond all imaginings, while i still have pretty much nowt all.
I agree, where is my 100's of millions?
Been playing for 15 months, have never had more than 50 mill at one time 
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DarkMatter
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:31:00 -
[8]
Quote:
i'm a bit cheesed off that i keep reading posts about how everyone else has become wealthy beyond all imaginings, while i still have pretty much nowt all.
I agree, where is my 100's of millions?
Been playing for 15 months, have never had more than 50 mill at one time
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flummox
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:43:00 -
[9]
do you think maybe people are stockpiling for Shiva?
and i'm one of them broke ones...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
flummox
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:43:00 -
[10]
do you think maybe people are stockpiling for Shiva?
and i'm one of them broke ones...
there is a fine, but dissasterous line between a fart and a shart. i suggest you make sure which side you want to be on... |
Myko
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:57:00 -
[11]
the question is do you introduce more isk sinks or do an 'isk-nerf'? the reason i ask is that most isk sinks tend to be aviodable, and so would likely annoy but not solve the problem. e.g. a reduction in insurance would likely mean fewer people risking ships, more people complaining when they get podded etc.
Basically i think that the npc-inputted isk needs to be cut quite dramastically. I'd like to see the bounties of npc's respond to how many people (in ships other than n00b ships  ) actually get killed by that pirate faction, agent rewards linked to how much money the npc corp makes from factories etc. and having to buy mining rights in empire space (at least as some examples of what im talking about).
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Myko
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Posted - 2004.10.14 16:57:00 -
[12]
the question is do you introduce more isk sinks or do an 'isk-nerf'? the reason i ask is that most isk sinks tend to be aviodable, and so would likely annoy but not solve the problem. e.g. a reduction in insurance would likely mean fewer people risking ships, more people complaining when they get podded etc.
Basically i think that the npc-inputted isk needs to be cut quite dramastically. I'd like to see the bounties of npc's respond to how many people (in ships other than n00b ships ) actually get killed by that pirate faction, agent rewards linked to how much money the npc corp makes from factories etc. and having to buy mining rights in empire space (at least as some examples of what im talking about).
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markol
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:02:00 -
[13]
I have been playing for close to 6 months now. The most cash I ever had was 150mil for a brief period of time. Combine that with assets cost at the time, and it would be about 275mil. Not all that much considering it was the sole ship I was driving + its equipment.
Since then I have joined the dark side and went broke as a result. I now have barely over 1mil, with net assets about 125mil. Perhaps there needs to be an isk sink, I just hope I dont sink down it.
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markol
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:02:00 -
[14]
I have been playing for close to 6 months now. The most cash I ever had was 150mil for a brief period of time. Combine that with assets cost at the time, and it would be about 275mil. Not all that much considering it was the sole ship I was driving + its equipment.
Since then I have joined the dark side and went broke as a result. I now have barely over 1mil, with net assets about 125mil. Perhaps there needs to be an isk sink, I just hope I dont sink down it.
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Moneta
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:06:00 -
[15]
If it would be interesting to me in the slightest, I could have most certainly suprassed the 1 billion isk mark easily by now.
Matter of fact, ive got 25 million now, give me two months and I'll have a billion. (assuming shiva comes in like it is atm).
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Iv held back from posting on this thread for quite some time, but i think the time had come for me to come in and post.
Aneu
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Moneta
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:06:00 -
[16]
If it would be interesting to me in the slightest, I could have most certainly suprassed the 1 billion isk mark easily by now.
Matter of fact, ive got 25 million now, give me two months and I'll have a billion. (assuming shiva comes in like it is atm).
Originally by: Aneu Angellus
Iv held back from posting on this thread for quite some time, but i think the time had come for me to come in and post.
Aneu
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agrizla
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:08:00 -
[17]
Changing insurance so it only pays out for losses incurred in empire and not in a war is long overdue. For non-empire insurance - well maybe some new agents?
Insurance has to disappear for the vast majority of ship losses though. I suspect it won't and the next mass-whine will be insurance for POS 
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agrizla
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:08:00 -
[18]
Changing insurance so it only pays out for losses incurred in empire and not in a war is long overdue. For non-empire insurance - well maybe some new agents?
Insurance has to disappear for the vast majority of ship losses though. I suspect it won't and the next mass-whine will be insurance for POS
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Helplessandlost
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:09:00 -
[19]
Same here, I got real close to 100 Mil right before the advanced learning skills hit now I'm damn near broke again.
Please transfer all avialable ISK to Helplessandlost and I will use it to sink into NPC's and help eliminate the excess isk and hence reduce inflation.
Thank you!
Check us out
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Helplessandlost
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:09:00 -
[20]
Same here, I got real close to 100 Mil right before the advanced learning skills hit now I'm damn near broke again.
Please transfer all avialable ISK to Helplessandlost and I will use it to sink into NPC's and help eliminate the excess isk and hence reduce inflation.
Thank you!
Check us out
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:49:00 -
[21]
Edited by: DeFood on 14/10/2004 17:53:57
Originally by: Hakera
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
1. Better ore. Sold to players not NPCs. not an ISK generator.
2. Better NPCs. Bounties? sure. ISK generator.
3. Better Loot? Sold to players. not an isk Generator. Or refined to minerals that are sold to players. Not an ISK generator.
4. Better missions? There are mor ISK paying missions now? hmmm, ok.
5. Less insurance costs? The insurance costs were always trivial. If CCP is going to bother with insurance at all then the insurance companies are going to be making a huge loss. With or without insurance premiums, the insurance payouts are a huge ISK generator.
Mostly I agree. I think there should be less routes for fresh ISK into eve. Bounties and agent rewards - if they remain ISK based, should if possible be payed out of a tax pool (Shiva will be collecting all that tax!). Insurance? Short of eliminating insurance entirely... Perhaps insurance needs to switch to paying out in minerals not isk.
Actually, if we got rid of the insurance thing, then CCP could carefully control the growth of the money supply by adjusting the ISK rewards for missions and bounties based on the number of kills/missions exectuted per day.
Certainly the EVE economy, though far better than the economy in other MMORPG wannabies ive played, feels too unconstrained to be worth the effort of bothering to "work" as it seems too easy for certain classes of player to generate insane levels of "new" isk.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.10.14 17:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: DeFood on 14/10/2004 17:53:57
Originally by: Hakera
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
1. Better ore. Sold to players not NPCs. not an ISK generator.
2. Better NPCs. Bounties? sure. ISK generator.
3. Better Loot? Sold to players. not an isk Generator. Or refined to minerals that are sold to players. Not an ISK generator.
4. Better missions? There are mor ISK paying missions now? hmmm, ok.
5. Less insurance costs? The insurance costs were always trivial. If CCP is going to bother with insurance at all then the insurance companies are going to be making a huge loss. With or without insurance premiums, the insurance payouts are a huge ISK generator.
Mostly I agree. I think there should be less routes for fresh ISK into eve. Bounties and agent rewards - if they remain ISK based, should if possible be payed out of a tax pool (Shiva will be collecting all that tax!). Insurance? Short of eliminating insurance entirely... Perhaps insurance needs to switch to paying out in minerals not isk.
Actually, if we got rid of the insurance thing, then CCP could carefully control the growth of the money supply by adjusting the ISK rewards for missions and bounties based on the number of kills/missions exectuted per day.
Certainly the EVE economy, though far better than the economy in other MMORPG wannabies ive played, feels too unconstrained to be worth the effort of bothering to "work" as it seems too easy for certain classes of player to generate insane levels of "new" isk.
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stinky fecker
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: DeFood
Edited by: DeFood on 14/10/2004 17:53:57
Originally by: Hakera
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
1. Better ore. Sold to players not NPCs. not an ISK generator.
2. Better NPCs. Bounties? sure. ISK generator.
3. Better Loot? Sold to players. not an isk Generator. Or refined to minerals that are sold to players. Not an ISK generator.
4. Better missions? There are mor ISK paying missions now? hmmm, ok.
5. Less insurance costs? The insurance costs were always trivial. If CCP is going to bother with insurance at all then the insurance companies are going to be making a huge loss. With or without insurance premiums, the insurance payouts are a huge ISK generator.
Mostly I agree. I think there should be less routes for fresh ISK into eve. Bounties and agent rewards - if they remain ISK based, should if possible be payed out of a tax pool (Shiva will be collecting all that tax!). Insurance? Short of eliminating insurance entirely... Perhaps insurance needs to switch to paying out in minerals not isk.
Actually, if we got rid of the insurance thing, then CCP could carefully control the growth of the money supply by adjusting the ISK rewards for missions and bounties based on the number of kills/missions exectuted per day.
Certainly the EVE economy, though far better than the economy in other MMORPG wannabies ive played, feels too unconstrained to be worth the effort of bothering to "work" as it seems too easy for certain classes of player to generate insane levels of "new" isk.
ore/loot etc are isk generators, although they dor so indirectly - whilst the items may be sold to other players, the commodity itself (minerals, whatever) are being added into circulation. Value is added to them by further processes (eg manufacturing). The value of the eve economy is measured not only in terms of liquidity (isk in wallets) but in terms of the total value of the commodities in circulation.
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stinky fecker
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DeFood
Edited by: DeFood on 14/10/2004 17:53:57
Originally by: Hakera
This subject has been covered a lot already but I believe everyone realises that incomes have rocketed in the past months as better ore/better npc's/better loot/better missions/less insurance costs have lead to record levels of inflation witnessed recently.
1. Better ore. Sold to players not NPCs. not an ISK generator.
2. Better NPCs. Bounties? sure. ISK generator.
3. Better Loot? Sold to players. not an isk Generator. Or refined to minerals that are sold to players. Not an ISK generator.
4. Better missions? There are mor ISK paying missions now? hmmm, ok.
5. Less insurance costs? The insurance costs were always trivial. If CCP is going to bother with insurance at all then the insurance companies are going to be making a huge loss. With or without insurance premiums, the insurance payouts are a huge ISK generator.
Mostly I agree. I think there should be less routes for fresh ISK into eve. Bounties and agent rewards - if they remain ISK based, should if possible be payed out of a tax pool (Shiva will be collecting all that tax!). Insurance? Short of eliminating insurance entirely... Perhaps insurance needs to switch to paying out in minerals not isk.
Actually, if we got rid of the insurance thing, then CCP could carefully control the growth of the money supply by adjusting the ISK rewards for missions and bounties based on the number of kills/missions exectuted per day.
Certainly the EVE economy, though far better than the economy in other MMORPG wannabies ive played, feels too unconstrained to be worth the effort of bothering to "work" as it seems too easy for certain classes of player to generate insane levels of "new" isk.
ore/loot etc are isk generators, although they dor so indirectly - whilst the items may be sold to other players, the commodity itself (minerals, whatever) are being added into circulation. Value is added to them by further processes (eg manufacturing). The value of the eve economy is measured not only in terms of liquidity (isk in wallets) but in terms of the total value of the commodities in circulation.
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DeerHunter GE
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:28:00 -
[25]
Its just too easy to make hundreds of millions....
3 hours NPC Hunting at least 15 mios in the right systems, sometimes if you make it to catch an NPC Mining session you can make hundreds of millions in just a few mins....
Additional, the tons of loot....you can refine the standard things and build bs from it and you can sell he utra rare things...where is your problem guys ?
The force is with the big corps in this game......only if you are very lucky you can get an very rare BPO and sell it for 2 maybe 4 Billions....why producing ISK sinks ? the standard items becoming afforable for everyone and the rare BPO's e.g. becoming more valuable!
Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you! |
DeerHunter GE
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:28:00 -
[26]
Its just too easy to make hundreds of millions....
3 hours NPC Hunting at least 15 mios in the right systems, sometimes if you make it to catch an NPC Mining session you can make hundreds of millions in just a few mins....
Additional, the tons of loot....you can refine the standard things and build bs from it and you can sell he utra rare things...where is your problem guys ?
The force is with the big corps in this game......only if you are very lucky you can get an very rare BPO and sell it for 2 maybe 4 Billions....why producing ISK sinks ? the standard items becoming afforable for everyone and the rare BPO's e.g. becoming more valuable!
Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you! |
Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:34:00 -
[27]
Hmm not quiet sure of where some of you are coming from with this insurance is the root of all inflation / evil / bad breath.
Before BS prices shot up it was possible to replace your ship and equipment and have enough isk to pay maybe half towards the next insurance premium.
At 35mill for tier 2 insurance its was still an ISK sink since everytime you lost your ship you were coughing up 15 mill or so.
Now days the insurance just about covers the cost to buy a new ship since prices have gone up and everytime you lose a ship you pay out towards equip and full insurance again (The full 35 mill) this is an isk sink.
The real cost of a BS is (approx prices):
105 mill BS + 10mill Equip + 35mill insurance = 150 mill
Payout is 110 mill approx that = 40 mill ISK sink.
If you got rid of insurance in 0.0, people simply wouldnt fly BS. BS prices would drop as demand dropped. Its already quite an ISK sink if your out in 0.0 PVPing all the time.
If peeps want to get rid of insurance then lets get rid of it everywhere  - i dont think many peeps will vote for that.
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Xavier Arron
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:34:00 -
[28]
Hmm not quiet sure of where some of you are coming from with this insurance is the root of all inflation / evil / bad breath.
Before BS prices shot up it was possible to replace your ship and equipment and have enough isk to pay maybe half towards the next insurance premium.
At 35mill for tier 2 insurance its was still an ISK sink since everytime you lost your ship you were coughing up 15 mill or so.
Now days the insurance just about covers the cost to buy a new ship since prices have gone up and everytime you lose a ship you pay out towards equip and full insurance again (The full 35 mill) this is an isk sink.
The real cost of a BS is (approx prices):
105 mill BS + 10mill Equip + 35mill insurance = 150 mill
Payout is 110 mill approx that = 40 mill ISK sink.
If you got rid of insurance in 0.0, people simply wouldnt fly BS. BS prices would drop as demand dropped. Its already quite an ISK sink if your out in 0.0 PVPing all the time.
If peeps want to get rid of insurance then lets get rid of it everywhere - i dont think many peeps will vote for that.
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agrizla
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:59:00 -
[29]
I would - I've only ever insured four ships and two of them had to be repackaged due to bugs  . The other two had insurance that expired (and one got blown up I think after that).
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agrizla
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Posted - 2004.10.14 18:59:00 -
[30]
I would - I've only ever insured four ships and two of them had to be repackaged due to bugs . The other two had insurance that expired (and one got blown up I think after that).
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