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Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:18:00 - [1] Hi all. Solo roaming FW PvP, I think this is a pretty good Hurricane pvp fit: [Hurricane, Cane PvP3] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Medium Energy Neutralizer I 'Malkuth' Assault Missile Launcher I, Sabretooth Light Missile Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I Projectile Ambit Extension I Warrior II x5 Seems good to me..until I start thinking about Harby fits like this: [Harbinger, HarbyPvP] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Small Energy Neutralizer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Warrior II x5 So, both can hit at more than 20k..the difference is that the Harby is at its Optimum, while the cane will be hitting for less damage at its falloff. Plus, the EM and Therm resistances on the cane are not enhanced, but the harby 'can' enhance some barrage resistance. Cane needs the Ambits to hit at the 20k. Cane has a 'small' edge in speed, but he can't really use it to maintain a beneficial range. The harby can hit the cane when the cane can hit the harby, and with more damage. Any attempt by me to even the odds results in the cane getting range-gimped to 14k or so. So, this is all EFT checking with all level 5 skills for both..I do know that pvp is mostly situational, but I just want to feel that these two BCs can be more equal combatants given only skills and fittings. And the cane needs to be effective against harbys AND other BCs, not just the harby. So, how would you change the cane fitting? Thx!
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:23:00 - [2] Fit 2 neuts on the cane. Neut harb. Profit. Also the harb should be using heavy pulse and the cane should be using 220s. And the odis should all be nanos. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:23:00 - [3] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 25/08/2009 20:24:06 Originally by: Duke Karas So, how would you change the cane fitting? Like the one below, nanofiber > overdrive, as it will handle like a cruiser that way. Guns dont need to be 425s if you are worried about tracking, can downsize to 220s if you want. Warfare link could be a 2nd neut or HAM if you are solo or not the gang booster. [Hurricane, shield+link] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M Skirmish Warfare Link - Rapid Deployment 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4
Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:55:00 - [4] So I get using neuts, but you have to close to neut range. I would prefer not to drive into his optimal-damage lasers to get close enough to increase my damage (by getting closer to my optimal) and close enough to use my neuts on him... I mean if the cane starts at 25k?? as an example..15k at 1500m/s is 10 seconds estimated to close to 10-11k? Enough for this particular harby build to strip 5000 hp from the cane...
Davinel Lulinvega	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:58:00 - [5] Originally by: Duke Karas So I get using neuts, but you have to close to neut range. I would prefer not to drive into his optimal-damage lasers to get close enough to increase my damage (by getting closer to my optimal) and close enough to use my neuts on him... I mean if the cane starts at 25k?? as an example..15k at 1500m/s is 10 seconds estimated to close to 10-11k? Enough for this particular harby build to strip 5000 hp from the cane... Once you get close and neut him he can't shoot you anymore. I'm not seeing the problem here. Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke! inb4 stealth edit
TheMaster42 Lobster Gazelle Unicorn	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Duke Karas I would prefer not to drive into his optimal-damage lasers to get close enough to increase my damage... What logic is this? He's at his optimal already, and you're below optimal in falloff. Your dps increases if you get closer, and his remains the same.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:17:00 - [7] I'd change it by swapping 2 overdrives for 2 nanos and maybe trading the lse for an invuln and upgrading to 220s for starters. I also wouldn't want to engage a harby in a vagacane.
Gram Hellfire Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:17:00 - [8] Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 25/08/2009 21:17:58 I like the 'cane's agility to run away or keep up with cruisers, and use it often(try dropping the ODs for nanofibers and enjoy warping quick like a cruiser) edit: ewww to the d180s - try 220s
Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Once you get close and neut him he can't shoot you anymore. I'm not seeing the problem here. Really? How many cycles of the 2 neuts on the cane would it take? And how much cap would the cane use?
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:20:00 - [10] Imo, I'd use a Harb, simply more dps. Heavy Pulses ftw. Cane is decent enough tho. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Duke Karas Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega Once you get close and neut him he can't shoot you anymore. I'm not seeing the problem here. Really? How many cycles of the 2 neuts on the cane would it take? And how much cap would the cane use? Click here to find out
Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:22:00 - [12] Originally by: TheMaster42 Originally by: Duke Karas I would prefer not to drive into his optimal-damage lasers to get close enough to increase my damage... What logic is this? He's at his optimal already, and you're below optimal in falloff. Your dps increases if you get closer, and his remains the same. Yes. The point was he is doing more damage than me as I head into neut range. Not even addreesing the fact we both have mwds, so he could be heading away from me..
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy Double Dutch Rudders	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:39:00 - [13] Something you may want to think about: ->Without a sensor booster you will have a hard time trying to catch even cruisers on stargates. ->Without a scam and/or web(you will probably need both) you will have a hard time keeping things from getting back to the gate. This all leads to armor tanking being a bit more useful for fw/lowsec if you intend to do any fighting on the gates at all since you can fit all of the above equipment. A hybrid plate/rep fit or plate/gank fit is what's usually used and nearly everyone I know of that uses BC's in this way has had great success. I personally loved the 800 plate + gank harb setup. It's very good for killing things very quickly from 23km away and closer, which is very handy for FW where your wt's backup is one or two jumps away. --------
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:04:00 - [14] The answer is simple: fit Heavy Pulse II on the Hurricane. -- The crazy tree blooms at every moment of liberal ascendancy.
Kata Dakini Amarr Flatiron Academy	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:10:00 - [15] Arguing that fitting neuts on a Cane will counter a Harbi is like saying I'll fit nanos on my Harbi to counter a Cane. The Harbi's cap and PG outclass the Cane's. If the Harbi has neuts also, his will be better. For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:13:00 - [16] Hurricane can field two neuts without reducing gunnage. Harbinger cannot. -- The crazy tree blooms at every moment of liberal ascendancy.
Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Kata Dakini Arguing that fitting neuts on a Cane will counter a Harbi is like saying I'll fit nanos on my Harbi to counter a Cane. The Harbi's cap and PG outclass the Cane's. If the Harbi has neuts also, his will be better. Especially as I've left out the almost always used Cap Booster from the harby set-up...
Duke Karas	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Guillame Herschel The answer is simple: fit Heavy Pulse II on the Hurricane. NO...yes...NO...yesssss...NOOOOOOO. So conflicted
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Duke Karas So I get using neuts, but you have to close to neut range. I would prefer not to drive into his optimal-damage lasers to get close enough to increase my damage (by getting closer to my optimal) and close enough to use my neuts on him... you fail to understand the advantages of projectiles. vs lasers, get close and mess up the tracking vs blasters fight in falloff where you cant get hit. Originally by: Lana Torrin I'm getting pretty ****ed off with the supposedly hard core PvPers complaining about every little thing that gets changed. seriously, more tears than carebears.
Kismo	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:28:00 - [20] Originally by: rubico1337 you fail to understand the advantages of projectiles. vs lasers, get close and mess up the tracking vs blasters fight in falloff where you cant get hit. The only problem with that is that cruiser sized pulse has no trouble hitting a battlecruiser even at close range. It'd be OP if they had a decent cruiser to fit them on.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Hurricane can field two neuts without reducing gunnage. Harbinger cannot. You mean the Harbinger can fit 7 guns, and the Hurricane cannot. See what I did there? Fly the Harbinger. Fit extender rigs, rather than that anti-EM crap.
SuiJuris Absinthe Brothers Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:19:00 - [22] A harbinger with a cap booster will have no trouble at all cap boosting enough to keep his guns running more then long enough to murder the cane. --- Ceptor Pilots HULL tank
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:30:00 - [23] Edited by: Mahke on 25/08/2009 23:33:56 Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Guillame Herschel Hurricane can field two neuts without reducing gunnage. Harbinger cannot. You mean the Harbinger can fit 7 guns, and the Hurricane cannot. See what I did there? Fly the Harbinger. Fit extender rigs, rather than that anti-EM crap. Havent checked the harb yet for this, but, as a general rule of thumb, on a unhardened shield buffer tanked T1 ship the first anti-em rig is roughly equivalent ehp wise against uniform damage to an extender rig. This makes it better than an extender rig: it's cheaper and you don't have to worry about a gaping resist hole. As far as using 3x resist rigs yeah, you have a point, but, there is no reason to go 3x CDFE over 1x em-rig 2x CDFE. edit: As Sui mentioned about the cap boosters, its worth considering dropping an LSE for them. Its not a big deal if a BC goes boom and neuting is too common not to have one IMO for the harb.
HrunTheBarbarian	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:44:00 - [24] Edited by: HrunTheBarbarian on 26/08/2009 00:45:22 Originally by: Kismo Originally by: rubico1337 you fail to understand the advantages of projectiles. vs lasers, get close and mess up the tracking vs blasters fight in falloff where you cant get hit. The only problem with that is that cruiser sized pulse has no trouble hitting a battlecruiser even at close range. It'd be OP if they had a decent cruiser to fit them on. Indeed. That statement would probably be more true if the pilot couldn't almost instantly swap the -25% tracking scorch for ANMF and still be able to track you very close up. The Harby would kick out even more damage up close and unless you could orbit at your max speed at under 1k he'll be doing at least the same DPS, if not more. And if you try to orbit fast with your MWD your inflated sig and the inability to have a tight fast orbit would draw even more fire your way. I personally think where projectiles do their best is when orbiting around a plated blaster boat, better damage type and a good bit better tracking than lasers, even then they only might be a bit better. I think it's a shame it doesn't work that way though to a certain extent, projectiles should be a solid flexible middle ground. no cap use, good tracking, can hit far past blasters, somewhat selectable damage types. If only they worked as well as that all sounds. As it is I think you're mainly better of using projectiles in either: 1) A well bonused projectile platform 2) Something without much in the way of gunnery bonuses that uses a big active tank. That said, I would personally prefer to go with the cane with a fast cruiser gang as a bit more muscle than the Harby, and would prefer the Harby for more general use. In which case I would probably go with the versatile big plate tank setup.
Mr Reason	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:16:00 - [25] Edited by: Mr Reason on 26/08/2009 01:17:05 [Hurricane, shield] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Torrent Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Hobgoblin II x5 ---------------- [Harbinger, Shield] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Warp Disruptor II Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Small Energy Neutralizer II Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Hammerhead II x5 Harb wins based on pure dps and damage types, Cane has a slight chance if he can get in REALLY close as it's tracking is better but that's very academic.
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:25:00 - [26] You're mostly good with the Hurricane fit (although, use 220s and dual neuts). In gang: Harbringer. The triple falloff rigged Hurricane gets heavily outdamaged some 15-20km out by a Harbringer. It gets outdamaged by a artycane actually, so if you absolutely want to fly a Hurricane in a gang, it's a better bet in 95% of the situations then the dual-LSE AC Hurricane. For solo, however, AC Hurricane. It's faster and more agile (better gtfo ability), and the dual neuts are preety much awesome vs small stuff. Alternatively, you could try a plate fit... although I'm not very comfortable flying them nowdays. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Ecky X Fly the Harbinger. Fit extender rigs, rather than that anti-EM crap. And get melted by EM damage like no tomorrow EFT doesnt tell the whole story until you use damage profiles.
Thingymawotzit	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:22:00 - [28] TBH my non-nano myrmidon would pwn any of these setups posted here. Dont know why your bothering trying to nano these bc's. If your going nano do it with a zealot or cerb or curse or something.
Hippomenes	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:51:00 - [29] if youre going to shield tank a harby...take advantage of the laser's damage at range capabilities (i.e. add more range) [Harbinger, New Setup 4] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Fleeting Warp Disruptor I Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M [empty high slot] Energy Locus Coordinator I Energy Locus Coordinator I Core Defence Field Extender I Hammerhead II x5 635 dps w/ scorch @ 30km optimal 730 with AN MF @ 9.7km optimal, 6s align time, and 46k ehp (glass cannons are fun to fly, and surprisingly successful)
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.08.26 07:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Ecky X Fly the Harbinger. Fit extender rigs, rather than that anti-EM crap. And get melted by EM damage like no tomorrow EFT doesnt tell the whole story until you use damage profiles. invuln+lse+3x extender > 2xlse+2xem+1x therm, however. Lasers don't do EM only. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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