| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Traska Gannel
   |
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:19:00 -
[1]
Hi All,
I've been reading some of the threads regarding the EBANK failure and I must be missing something. How is it possible for banking to reliably work in the EVE sandbox when there are no external controls on player behaviour?
In the real world - forfeiture on loans or other financial instruments carries consequences - there are ways for financial institutions to recover some or all of the invested funds ranging from lawsuits to garnisheeing wages to jail time for the offender.
In EVE, the only consequence would appear to be an impact on personal reputation which, for many players in EVE, has no significance whatsoever and can be interpreted very differently. For example, rip off a thousand other players with a scam and a player might be hailed as a hero and welcomed with open arms in many corps - "Just imagine the carebear tears".
In fact, based on my understanding of EVE policies - the EBANK CEO who appears to have arranged for a 525b ISK loss actually did nothing wrong. The only reason he seems to have gotten in trouble is because the ISK he embezzled went to an RMT operation. If he had used it to buy himself some T2 BPOs instead ... is there anything that could have been done either by the players or CCP? His behaviour would not appear to be against the rules of the game. There have been several instances of high level defections within player alliances - is a banking scheme any different? A bank is really just a financial alliance.
In the end, it would appear that any banking in EVE must operate on trust and trust alone without the risk of any significant penalties to either customers or bank staff for less than ethical activities - and this would appear to be why any banking scheme can't ultimately work in EVE.
Thoughts?
|
Dzil
Caldari
Halo Industries
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:41:00 -
[2]
What you're looking for is governmental structure. I believe this can exist, but only in 0.0 space where folks would naturally have assets (POS, Ships) to seize, and could truly be declared KOS without some arbitrary Concord policies.
As it is, trusting your billions to high sec Superman who can at a whim enter a phone booth and emerge Clark Kent, is a gambit at best.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 14:43:00 -
[3]
From all I can tell, Ebank was actually pretty secure against this sort of stuff, if it was run properly. Fractional reserves, large numbers of trusted people to split the money across, lots of solid locked-down assets like titan BPOs, and a bunch of other safeguards.
In practice, Ricdic was a gigantic cancer, most of the checks and balances weren't there, and nobody had a damned clue where all the money was. I'm only a MD occasional, so there's probably more to the story than I know, but from what I can tell the story pretty much comes down to a lot of people who should know better handing a screwup the keys to the candy store, and not kicking him out until it was far too late.
|
Deus Letus
Chooch Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 15:50:00 -
[4]
It has been said before EBANk and every other bank in eve is a ponzi scheme. There is no way for them not to be. I am a banker in RL and without the ability to "Invest" assets i.e. the depositors ISK you can not give a return on the investment. The ability to Loan out without true collateral and the ability to borrow the money you are lendind as in Real Life Banking does not exist in New Eden.
Neither do Bonds, Stocks, or real estate all aspects fo banking. There is no "governmental" or "legal" consequences for forclosures and recovery of assets.
Banking in Eve has been and always will be a Ponzi scheme whether you want to admit it or not. There is no way around it.
If you invested in Eve Bank them you truly were a sucker, and based upon those who truly believe that it is legit and that "mechanics" are to blame it can be done I may start my own Bank of Ponzi (BOP) and see how many ISkies I can get.
Before you "invest" your funds you need to havet the basic understanding of banking principles, how it works within game mechanics and if it actually can happen. 1 year of frozen assets means your ISK has now gone out the window never to be seen again and some alliance just got about 50 Titans, at least.
Remember there were those in the end who still believed Bernie Madoff was legit and would invest with him today.
|
Terminus Vindictus
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:12:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Deus Letus
I am a banker in RL and without the ability to "Invest" assets i.e. the depositors ISK you can not give a return on the investment.
My impression from their literature was that investing is exactly what they were doing with the assets. There are a number of legitimate investing activities in EVE like trade, etc. which can be profitable with the right infusion of capital, although the guaranteed return is probably a give-away for the Ponzi scheme. In the end I decided not to deposit any of my cash into either EVE bank, which it seems was a wise move, but I was still watching things to see how they'd end up.
Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. |
Felix Jugo
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:17:00 -
[6]
I think the problems with EVE banking have been centralization and scale. If a bank with a staff of 15 holds 2 trillion in deposits, there are far too many opportunities for a director (or even a teller) to scam on a grand scale. I'm willing to believe (doe eyed innocent that I am) that the directors of eBank were working in good faith, but that the business grew far faster than their accounting skills.
My thought is that lending your money out to 15 different bankers who are individually responsible for the money they take would be a lot safer than lending to a bank with 15 salaried employees, no?
Some kind of central database/wiki/whatever might make that possible. That's my proposed model, not a bank but a bond exchange. It would need to do the following:
- provide a list of registered issuers currently offering bonds/accepting deposits
- what would be needed is large numbers of low/medium denomination bonds on offer
- list the skill points of each bond issuer. Someone who's put in a year of training time is much easier to hold accountable, as the character is less likely to disappear.
- keep a public record of all bonds issued through the service
- track the history of each issuer (how many bonds issued in the past, in what amounts, on what terms, their business model, history of repayment, how many bonds currently on offer and in what denominations, known exposure...)
- issue a credit rating (AAA, CCC+, D, etc.) of each issuer, and provide forum space for the public to post their own views as to the creditworthiness of each issuer (yes, we have some bond rating going on already, but for this sort of thing to work on a large scale the more detail the better)
- maintain a list of people with D-for-default credit ratings so that the mob with pitchforks and torches knows who to go after
- charge bond issuers a nominal fee (proportionate to their wealth) to pay the staff a living wage, a salary proportionate to the pay scale of a good auditor
Nothing in EVE is perfectly trustworthy (RL bond rating services have proven to be just as corrupt as RL banks...) but personal accountability would certainly increase my degree of faith in a bank-like bond exchange.
Now tell me this is a bad idea, or how it's already been done. Go easy on me, I'm green.
|
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 16:54:00 -
[7]
In order to have a functioning bank, you need two things which largely don't exist in empire space: consequences for actions and a healthy loan market.
0.0 space has both of these, if you are operating within the bounds of a large alliance.
I've spoken about it here on the forums that raising money from empire resident (largely you guys) and loaning it to a 0.0 bank would be wildly profitable.
But that's not going to happen in the current environment.
|
oil
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 17:07:00 -
[8]
the idea of banking in eve is flawed. it will never work without ingame tools. its so easy to scam and then hide behind a new char. as long as the scammer can get away with a couple of thousand dollars worth of isk scams will happen again and again.
|
Vivinc Laloo
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:23:00 -
[9]
The problem is there are no enforcement tools at all to back these kind of player initiatives with current gamemechanics. Maybe to a lesser extent in 0.0 but still hardly ideal. Going to war with an offending party is only in very specific situations and for a select group of investors an option.
Imo without somekind of new contract/loan/enforcement mechanic we just lack the tools to pull these kind of ventures off.
|
Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 18:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kalrand
In order to have a functioning bank, you need two things which largely don't exist in empire space: consequences for actions and a healthy loan market.
0.0 space has both of these, if you are operating within the bounds of a large alliance.
I've spoken about it here on the forums that raising money from empire resident (largely you guys) and loaning it to a 0.0 bank would be wildly profitable.
But that's not going to happen in the current environment.
And how do you enforce such 0.0 entity? You simply can't, hence is an other obvious scam waiting to happen.
In reality, every "problem" with EVE (and by extension any other persintent MMOG) is the lack of consequences to actions, at least hard enough consequernces. EVE has some consequences in some aspects, but it's pretty much impossible to develop an effective justice system, and punish these who comit these actions if requiered.
Nullsec may have a better enviorenment for developing such systems (but not in anyway it would be easy or perfect), but as long as residents can scape to Empire or other regions, and there is no such thing as extradition of criminals, it can't happen.
Imagine a game where criminals could be pursued effectivelly by other players, there would be no need for "empire" or "concord". But it would be very hard to develop such mechancis effectivelly (I don't know how, tbh).
WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations.
Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov. |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Slave 2739FKZ
And how do you enforce such 0.0 entity? You simply can't, hence is an other obvious scam waiting to happen.
Off the top of my head? Kick them out of the alliance, and don't give loans to people where that wouldn't be a significant penalty (people with thriving businesses, long histoy, moons, etc). Or if they run off with their assets to some empire corp? Threaten to wardec wherever they go. Empire corps usually hate having big scary enemies.
Beyond that, yea your out of luck, but you do need some level of standards, diversity, and serious interest rates.
|
Secondskin
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:13:00 -
[12]
A real bank takes in deposits and pays interest on them. The money for these interest payments comes from the bank using deposited funds as working capital for other ventures that turn a profit. The bank makes money by either applying capital in economies of scale to turn a better profit than an individual could manage, or by loaning money at a rate of interest that exceeds what they pay out on deposits. They play the financial spread.
A real bank has tools it can use to determine if someone is a good risk for a loan:
- credit history
- personal collateral
- evaluation of earning power to debt requested
The goal is not to let someone take out debts they can't possibly pay.
Sometimes it happens that a debtor wants to default on a loan. If someone doesn't pay up a real bank has ways to recoup its losses.
- property seizure
- court-ordered leins against property and earnings
- court-ordered debt repayment as part of bankruptcy proceedings
and any of these actions results in a terrible credit history for the debtor, so banks know not to loan money to such people again.
-
EVE has no tools to determine someone's credit worth other than word of mouth and hearsay.
Accounts can be sold and tranferred so personal accountability is limited.
Player Banks have no legal recourse with which to recoup losses on loan defaults.
-
Given that there is no fallout for defaulting, what stops everyone from failing to repay their loans? Seems the simplest way to profit through a bank is to make a token deposit, take out a loan in excess of the funds you put in, then never pay it back. Leave the debt with the suckers who deposited for the long haul.
A bank could theoretically turn a profit if it had a non-loan venture to go in on, where collectivizing resources allowed the participating members to do things they couldn't achieve individually -- but then the 'bank' would be little different from an industrial corp paying out dividends on its shares.
I don't see a way to make a true 'bank' system work without modes of enforcement being added to the game... and I would prefer my EVE without those modes of enforcement.
Dead concept.
|
Saartje Sarel
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:29:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Saartje Sarel on 26/08/2009 19:31:36
Its pretty obvious why it doesnt work as mentioned above.
The obvious and only bank business model that has any chance of long term stability is a private bank, owned by one individual who only has a limited number of clients. No riff raff. No small deposits. No 2.5% interest crap. Do it properly and be exclusive.
But then they are not so much a bank as an investment fund.
The other possibility is to stop letting idiots buy billions of isk for real money and pretend to be intelligent/competent business people. Which so many of you lot patently arent. Anyone who earned their billions wont have ten seconds for a 'bank' of any sort. So I suspect thats your issue - stop letting stupid people play, or just stop caring when they get scammed by moderately less stupid people.
|
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Secondskin
:words:
Dead concept.
Ask yourself, how did money lending work 400 years ago.
|
Nemi Lethal
Gallente
DarkStar Armada
One Stop Research
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:35:00 -
[15]
Future banks need to be under direction of a third-party entity that has the ability to seize control when things may be moving in the wrong direction. We need banks within a bank with an Elected Official at the top.
|
Mkiaki
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:36:00 -
[16]
By giving it to me as a third party 
|
Leowen
Industrial Giants
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:37:00 -
[17]
It can't.
It won't.
It doesn't need to.
Seriously, this is a game. With a complex economy within a game. Secondary markets are surplus to requirement. Go out, shoot stuff, trade, pirate, build, do what you do, and either keep your ISK or spend it. Why do you need to give it to or borrow it from someone else to make you feel clever and special? It's a game - have fun and enjoy it, life is complicated enough.
Bring on the flames that I am some sort of simpleton, and that my lack of comprehension makes my opinion invalid. So that I can chuckle to myself.
|
Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 19:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Leowen
It can't.
It won't.
It doesn't need to.
Seriously, this is a game. With a complex economy within a game. Secondary markets are surplus to requirement. Go out, shoot stuff, trade, pirate, build, do what you do, and either keep your ISK or spend it. Why do you need to give it to or borrow it from someone else to make you feel clever and special? It's a game - have fun and enjoy it, life is complicated enough.
Bring on the flames that I am some sort of simpleton, and that my lack of comprehension makes my opinion invalid. So that I can chuckle to myself.
Well, you're right to a point. There is not a need, strictlly, for banks. Afterall all the consumed goods are luxury goods in EVE.
But banks work to raise funds and capital for better and greater economical ventures, and that's also a part of the game (yes, there is people who actually enjoy this).
There is a market for banks in EVE, even from a pure "fun & enjoyment" point of view. The problem is how you can control it without lack of consequences.
To the goon above me, when I asked how you enforced that 0.0 entity, I was asking about the alliance who acts as government controlling the bank. No one prevents GS (for example) of scamming trillions without any consequence.
WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations.
Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov. |
Aria Gallaine
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Secondskin
:words:
Dead concept.
Ask yourself, how did money lending work 400 years ago.
Debtor's prisons? I don't think EVE supports that.
|
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 20:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Slave 2739FKZ
Originally by: Leowen
To the goon above me, when I asked how you enforced that 0.0 entity, I was asking about the alliance who acts as government controlling the bank. No one prevents GS (for example) of scamming trillions without any consequence.
I have a name.
You're right. Nothing stops the Goons from scamming trillions of isk from anyone. May God help you all if we ever start doing it on an alliance level.
I was referring to a bank that loaned money to 0.0 residents (yes, in my example it would be goons) and how it would enforce against default.
Remember, in Ebank's case, its the loan defaults that caused this crisis, not Ricdic's direct embezzlement. DBank was probably burnout, and who knows about all the other proto banks out there.
|
Slave 2739FKZ
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 21:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kalrand
I have a name.
Yeah, sorry about that, wasn't directlly quoting you and this forum is awfull so couldn't check it ;)
WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations.
Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov. |
Kazzac Elentria
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kalrand
I have a name.
Robert Paulson?
..low fruit I know
Quote:
Remember, in Ebank's case, its the loan defaults that caused this crisis, not Ricdic's direct embezzlement. DBank was probably burnout, and who knows about all the other proto banks out there.
Dbank was burnout coupled with a gaping security flaw that was made known. Honestly think that had the DB not been totally hosed and taken down and instead quietly fixed while checks put in place to see if any breach had occurred it would have been business as normal over there.
EIB was scam from the gate
The other was just the head hauncho vanishing like a fart in the wind. My money is still on burnout and just walking away from the farm without anything....hell the account prolly still has the entire lump sum just sitting there. |
Seraph Castillon
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Seraph Castillon on 26/08/2009 22:34:04
Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Secondskin
:words:
Dead concept.
Ask yourself, how did money lending work 400 years ago.
It's still a game that we are talking about. You cannot shop someones hands off in EVE, or whatever they did in those days. You can give certain consequences to actions that are considered as "bad" ingame. However those actions only have effect if the person chooses to care about them (wardecs, reputation, current vulnerable businesses, corp membership, ...) or cannot evade them (buying new chars \o/).
These are basics that you cannot get rid of no matter what game mechanics you put in place.
So in the end it will always come down to 80% trustability and 20% fear of consequences.
|
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 22:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Kalrand
I have a name.
Robert Paulson?
..low fruit I know
You saw what happened when he was in charge...
|
Captain BrewSir
Gallente
Gallente Republic
The Gallente Republic
|
Posted - 2009.08.26 23:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Captain BrewSir on 26/08/2009 23:00:43
in reference to the person who talked about credit rating in regards to loaning people money, would it be feasible to have a third party service that maintains a database of current and future EVE players and sort of create a credit history (for a nominal fee from the corps that wish to use the service)? Of course to start everyone would have no history but as banks, companies, etc loan money items purchase etc. they can report to said third party a rating for the player based their credit worthiness/trustworthiness, and as things are reported people essentially start building a "credit rating."
I mean there is no way to be flawless but it would probably assist with preventing some scams, as banks etc would be able to decide whether they want to loan money to said person based on their rating through this third party service. Maybe even have multiple ratings as in RL so as to curb some corruption. Also allow people to view their "credit Reports" so as to dispute discrepancies etc.
in essence making in game more RL based and mor cumbersome and intensive but just a thought i had.
|
Vivinc Laloo
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 00:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kalrand
I have a name.
No you don't. You're a goon which makes you a moron and your toon name insignificant.
This is a serious thing tho. The fail of ebank does kinda harm all player investment-, ipo-, banking schemes-, insurance- etc initiatives. This probably is a thing for ccp since they seem to want this kinda semi mature gameplay.
My guess is They are paying attention atm :)
|
Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 09:07:00 -
[27]
The biggest problem in many respects is that there is no DNA test which tells us who is an alt of whom. Hek I doubt even CCP have a foolproof way of identifying which second/third accounts belong to the same person.
Let My People Go |
Leeham
Gallente
Dissonance Corp
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 13:49:00 -
[28]
The sad fact is the only way any banking system in eve would work is if it were run by Chribba
|
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 14:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Leeham
The sad fact is the only way any banking system in eve would work is if it were run by Chribba
Yea, but what would his cut be?
Actually... that's a serious question...
|
Tekota
legion industries ltd
Veni Vidi Vici
|
Posted - 2009.08.27 14:34:00 -
[30]
And even Chribba isn't (to my knowledge) immune to runaway buses. Actually that's a bit of a sad thought really, everyone puts in a "hit by a bus" clause as one of the things to guard against - some poor sod still warm and sticky on the pavement and hundreds of spaceship nerds saying "but what about my pixels?!?!one1". Sad indictment on the human condition. As both a human and a spaceship nerd I'm suddenly all ashamed of myself...
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |