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Hi-Sec effective anti-Ninja tactics ?

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Probably Psychotic	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:48:00 - [1] Been playing about 6 weeks and now I'm running level 3's and dabbling with level 4's I'm starting to fall prone to ninjas. Are there effective hi-sec tactics to at least scare them ? I'm wondering, is it considered an act of aggression to warp scramble / webify them, or to fire an EM burst to unlock the NPCs ? I'd thought perhaps I could lock them in one spot, fire the EM to force the NPC's to lose targeting on me, and then maybe they'd acquire targeting on the ninja instead ? But if any of these actions are considered aggressive then CONCORD will be down on me in seconds.
knifee Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:52:00 - [2] they are all aggressive acts, unless hes stolen something from a can and is flagged. There isn't much you can do really.. maybe just warp out so the NPCs swap targets but not much else.
Probably Psychotic	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:04:00 - [3] No unfortunately they are smart enough not to hit cans or wreck contents, so they are never tagged. But just the sight of one arriving and picking off the wrecks before I've even finished off the rats just p's me off. I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows ninjas to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. I even had one of them try to ransom my wrecks the other day for God's sake. While what they are doing is within the gameplay mechanics, it's not terribly honourable, and I'd still like to see some way of "endangering" them ... not full on kill-rights, but at least some way to scare them into thinking twice.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:15:00 - [4] Don't do any of that you'll just get yourself blown up by Concord. You're not going to scare a ninja, ever. Best tactics are: Don't do level 4 in a big mission hub. Mission with friends or corpmates. Have someone in a salvage boat. Don't smack talk. Ignore the ninja. If they're just looking for lulz they'll go away. If you ignore them and they keep salvaging. Then they're ISK and are going to take as much as they can get. You can jump out of the mission so the ninja gets NPC aggro. This only works with noob ninjas though. The vets will speed tank or kill the NPCs. You can blow up your wrecks. But that's shooting yourself in the foot if they're not taking loot. Remember, if they take loot they're looking for a fight and can most likely beat you. Salvage is not all you get from mission. SO don't get upset over losing it.
Sulissa UrnVelve	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:28:00 - [5] Gona second the above poster. There are piles of decent quality l4 agents around space. Take some time look at a few systems, and see if they're super populated or not, if not then you can prolly set up your base of operations out of that system. Be smart about how you sell you loot ie everyone can look at the market if piles of salvage it availible at X station it might be worth a ninja's time to scout the system. Don't smack, don't agress they're either really poor / new and looking for isks, or more likely they're looking to pvp. look at their profile. It's likely just as effective to fininsh the mission and do another, salvage sells decently but lp / bounties / mission rewards aren't all that bad either. Most ninja's will not be hurt in the slightest by mission rats..
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Probably Psychotic I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows mission runners to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. Fixed that for you...
Probably Psychotic	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Probably Psychotic I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows mission runners to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. Fixed that for you... I fail to see how working hard, saving up for a 100 million ship plus fittings, and risking it all on tough rat missions just to have part of your income (i.e. wreck salvaging) stolen from under your nose by some noob in a Cormy with nothing at all to risk even compares ... let me guess you are one of those guys whose ships are powered by tears right ?
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:00:00 - [8] Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 27/08/2009 17:04:36 Originally by: Probably Psychotic Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Probably Psychotic I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows mission runners to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. Fixed that for you... I fail to see how working hard, saving up for a 100 million ship plus fittings, and risking it all on tough rat missions just to have part of your income (i.e. wreck salvaging) stolen from under your nose by some noob in a Cormy with nothing at all to risk even compares ... let me guess you are one of those guys whose ships are powered by tears right ? Hi-sec mission running is second in safety only to hi-sec mining and is more profitable. Noob ninjas take a lot of risk going in to a level 4 mission. They get blown up a if they're not careful. It's happened to me.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum Pax Romana Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Probably Psychotic I fail to see how working hard, saving up for a 100 million ship plus fittings, and risking it all on tough rat missions There's effectively zero risk in mission-running, since the NPCs are weak and entirely predictable/grindable. The amount of ISK you can make running missions essentially dwarfs every other high-sec and low-sec activity (except for trading which isn't really in the same category), yet it's essentially risk free. Joe was entirely right - in fact, it's great that ninja salvagers can force any kind of interaction on mission runners in a PvP game to force them to take precautions. Even if you lose your salvage you're still probably earning much much more than any other kind of "flying ships around" way of earning money in empire. The risk/reward imbalance is entirely on the mission-runner's side.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:16:00 - [10] If you lose a ship in a mission, you're bad. You either have to a) Totally fail to create a competent fit. When there's plenty of fits available on the forums even if you cannot create one yourself, it's pretty hard to make a fit that can't run a mission. b) Fall asleep. B is probably the most likey. Missionrunning is, bar none, the most imbalanced profession in the game. The average missionrunner makes a great income. A smart missionrunner (One who is truly efficient, cherrypicks loot/salvage depending on mission, and uses LP correctly) can make asinine amounts of money given the total lack of risk.. Now, in an attempt to be constructive: a) Don't mission in hubs. Ninjas exist in systems where there are lots of hits. If they cannot reliably find missions at any point in the day, they will likely move. If you see a ninja,t hat means there's a lot of missionrunners in your system and should move. b) Fit ECCM and run it. Raises your sensor strength, making you harder to probe. In practice, it just means that ninjas will ignore you for other hits. Alternatively, fly in a smaller ship. Lower sig radius does the same thing.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:25:00 - [11] be polite and dont cry/whine and insult them or they will prolly come find you again get out of the hubs dont mission on caldari space relise the salvage dosnt belong to you Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:06:00 - [12] There needs to be a myriad of different ways for players to generate isk in the game in order that it continues to attract new players of all differnt types. Not everyone wants to grind missions or spend long lonely hours mining. There needs to be CHOICE, both for new players who don't want to be locked into a particular play style and existing players who want a change. Ninja salvage now has its own exponents and community and has become a genuine profession within the game which brings diversity and choice - where you have hunters you will always have scavengers. Ninja salvagers won't ever make as much isk as you, what they do is pretty boring, they are easy to avoid if you're not being lazy and they are only taking advantage of a game mechanic in the same way that mission runners will sit back and read a book knowing that their drones will take care of business without ever getting attacked if they've handled the aggresion right. Mission runners have got it easy and ninjas are only a very minor irritation.
BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare Gypsy Nation	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Probably Psychotic I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows ninjas to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. This isn't a hole in the mechanics... Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. it's an intended game mechanic. I know a lot of people disagree. Before I go any further let me point out that I'm a mission runner and not a salvage ninja, yet I agree with CCP. This isn't a single player game, it's an MMO, you will run into other people and they will do stuff you don't like, there is no way to avoid it except by pressing ctrl+q. There are a lot of things that can make you money that require no risk whatsoever, ninja salvaging is just one of those. As others have pointed out, so is mission running, mining, trading, and manufacturing. If you don't like it here is my one suggestion... Stay away from mission hubs, places where lots of high level missions are being run, these places attract salvagers. I stay away from them, haven't run into a single one yet.
Adehlea	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:13:00 - [14] When one turns up in my mission space, I usually stop killing things. I use a 2nd account to salvage, so finish up whatever there was already killed, and just stop making new wrecks. Then, I start following the ninja around, on the offchance that he kills something, then since its my mission, its still my loot, and I may be able to salvage the new wreck before he can. I figure if I can tie up a ninja then he'll get bored and go elsewhere. Regarding the salvaging is a mini-profession line... I'd be more inclined to agree with that IF WE COULD PROBE OUT WRECKS !
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:24:00 - [15] Edited by: FOl2TY8 on 27/08/2009 21:24:58 I think the best advice I can give is don't take it so personally. If you get pretty mad about someone salvaging your mission than it is up to you to make Eve fun again. But then again you are probably psychotic so I wouldn't be surprised if you are dropping deuces in your chair while you are playing and screaming "CANDY BAR CANDY BAR CANDY BAR" at your monitor. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:47:00 - [16] Edited by: 4THELULZ on 27/08/2009 21:49:02 Originally by: Probably Psychotic I can't understand how in a game like this, where overall risk vs reward seems so balanced, there is this glaring hole in the mechanics that allows ninjas to do their thing with absolutely no risk whatsoever. I even had one of them try to ransom my wrecks the other day for God's sake. See, you're looking at this the wrong way. Ninjas ARE risk - let's flip this around, would you say it's fair that you can make as much money as 0.0 ratting all safe in hisec? Not really no. Count yourself damn lucky that ninjas are the worst thing you have to deal with. Quote: I figure if I can tie up a ninja then he'll get bored and go elsewhere. This generally works. And I should mention at this point I've been both the ninja and the mission runner, and if someone gave me trouble I'd usually just give up and find something easier.
Chana Kor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:50:00 - [17] Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me?
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Chana Kor Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? That's a terrible analogy. Really man, it's awful. Here's an analogy for you: CCP says it's ok to salvage other peoples wrecks without a flag so therefore it is ok to salvage other peoples wrecks without getting a flag. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Terminus Vindictus Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:13:00 - [19] Originally by: Probably Psychotic I fail to see how working hard, saving up for a 100 million ship plus fittings, and risking it all on tough rat missions just to have part of your income (i.e. wreck salvaging) stolen from under your nose by some noob in a Cormy with nothing at all to risk even compares ... let me guess you are one of those guys whose ships are powered by tears right ? To be honest, if you're working hard to run missions you're doing something wrong. If you have any risk in running hisec missions you're doing something wrong. Running missions is a profession, meaning it's a job to earn ISK, and not a very exciting one at that. It's slightly more exciting, and certainly more profitable than mining, but it's still a job to fund other fun activities in EVE. If you really want to grab that salvage, then you get yourself a second account and salvage your wrecks as you mission. That, or you train for a Golem and do the same. If you weren't going to salvage those wrecks, then there's no issue. In any event, salvaging isn't stealing, and it's just something you'll have to live with especially if you mission in a busy hub. Part of the game. Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.
Terminus Vindictus Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Chana Kor If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? Sure, the wreck does belong to you with everything inside it. The salvage from the wreck doesn't. Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:33:00 - [21] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 27/08/2009 15:21:17 Don't do any of that you'll just get yourself blown up by Concord. You're not going to scare a ninja, ever. Best tactics are: Don't do level 4 in a big mission hub. Mission with friends or corpmates. Have someone in a salvage boat. Don't smack talk. Ignore the ninja. If they're just looking for lulz they'll go away. If you ignore them and they keep salvaging. Then they're in it for the ISK and are going to take as much as they can get no matter what. You can jump out of the mission so the ninja gets NPC aggro. This only works with noob ninjas though. The vets will speed tank or kill the NPCs. You can blow up your wrecks. But that's shooting yourself in the foot if they're not taking loot. Remember, if they take loot they're looking for a fight and can most likely beat you. Salvage is not all you get from mission. So don't get upset over losing it. Just quoting for truth. This sums all your options up very succinctly.
Chana Kor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:40:00 - [22] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Originally by: Chana Kor Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? That's a terrible analogy. Really man, it's awful. Here's an analogy for you: CCP says it's ok to salvage other peoples wrecks without a flag so therefore it is ok to salvage other peoples wrecks without getting a flag. Saying it's awful doesn't make it so. What's wrong with it? I am aware that CCP makes a distinction between the wreck's contents (loot) and the wrecks themselves (salvage). That's a fact. I am not disputing facts. My argument is that they should not make this distinction, because when you put in the effort to create value (a wreck) then you should have the (sole) right to extract that value. Both the loot and the salvage have value, and you should have the right to both. Stealing either should have the same consequence. I have a vested interest in making ninja salvaging a crime, because I am a missioner. Others have a vested interest in disagreeing with me, because they are ninja salvagers. We're not going to convince each other.
Quantar Raalsken Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Kahega Amielden If you lose a ship in a mission, you're bad. You either have to a) Totally fail to create a competent fit. When there's plenty of fits available on the forums even if you cannot create one yourself, it's pretty hard to make a fit that can't run a mission. b) Fall asleep. c) newbie fleet member pops the trigger >.< (luckily it hasnt killed me yet but its gotten said newbs killed lol) =======
Valarimir Davy Jones Locker Enforcers of Serenity	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Chana Kor Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? Actually this is a wonderful analogy. Ownership of the firewood does not depend on who felled the tree. It depends on who owns the land where the tree was felled. If you don't own the land, you don't own the firewood. Likewise for the wrecks. Since you don't own the space where you killed the rats, you don't own the wrecks.
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.08.28 03:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Chana Kor Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? NO they dont the loot belongs to you the wrecks belong to no one you really should read CCPs responses about this Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.08.28 04:56:00 - [26] Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 28/08/2009 05:02:42 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 28/08/2009 04:57:12 Originally by: Chana Kor Originally by: Gin G relise the salvage dosnt belong to you If I buy an axe, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to fell the tree, does not the firewood belong to me? If I buy a starship, acquire the skills to use it properly, and put in the effort to kill the rats, do not the wrecks belong to me? If you fell the tree ON YOUR PROPERTY then it's yours. If you fell the tree ON SOMEONE ELSE's property. Then it is THEIRS. If you fell the tree ON UNCLAIMED property. Then it belongs to whomever carries it home first. Actually, the problem here is MMO loot rights. "If I aquire the skills to use a gun properly and shoot some random smoe in the face, don't I get loot rights to his stuff? I know you're thinking WTF, but that's what this kind of argument amounts to. -- EVE is about balls, brains, and paranoia. SP comes in a distant fourth place.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Dark Ascendancy The Council.	Posted - 2009.08.28 05:52:00 - [27] You could try salvaging faster Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
Jim Nakamura	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:39:00 - [28] The number one thing you can do is GTFO the main corps' mission hubs. (There are more combat-oriented corps than Caldari Navy, you know, and they all have the exact same crap in their LP stores as their respective faction navies do). Most importantly, don't let it get to you. Apart from a few genuinely new characters, to whom a few bits of salvage are a big deal in terms of income, mostly these guys just want to provoke a fit of emorage. If you smacktalk them, warp out, try to aggro the mission rats on to them, shoot wrecks, etc., you're not only giving them exactly what they want, but you're wasting your own time and reducing your mission income far more than someone stealing a couple of stupid bits of salvage is. If they see they're not going to get a rise out of you, the dedicated salvagers will probably go away and look for someone that's more entertaining to play with.
Ozone71 Caldari Kamikaze Fleet Command	Posted - 2009.08.28 10:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Chana Kor Saying it's awful doesn't make it so. What's wrong with it? I am aware that CCP makes a distinction between the wreck's contents (loot) and the wrecks themselves (salvage). That's a fact. I am not disputing facts. My argument is that they should not make this distinction, because when you put in the effort to create value (a wreck) then you should have the (sole) right to extract that value. Both the loot and the salvage have value, and you should have the right to both. Stealing either should have the same consequence. I have a vested interest in making ninja salvaging a crime, because I am a missioner. Others have a vested interest in disagreeing with me, because they are ninja salvagers. We're not going to convince each other. You have failed to grasp why CCP added Salvage to the game. It was not added for your benefit. Back in the dark ages you ran your mission, got ISK, status and LP, and piles of loot which you could use, sell or reprocess. All well and good since yes you bought the ship, trained the skills and put in the time to kill the enemy. Then .. someone at CCP comes up with an idea. "Hey .. loot falls out of cargo.. what about the actual wreck itself. We can make it so wrecks can be salvaged, and the salvaged parts put to use for making rigs...cool huh?" And so salvaging was added to the game .. not for mission runners to get bonus ISK, but for other people to put in the time and effort to train a different set of skills - the salvage skills, the probing skills the manufacturing skills and put in the time and effort to hunt down wrecks, salvage them and then sell them, reprocess them or use them in manufacturing. Salvage was not added for your (the mission runners) benefit - so it's not yours. Salvage just happens to accumulate where you do your missions, so expect to see salvagers out there doing their job. Be more wary of the true "Ninjas" who turn up on your mission to steal the item you need for the mission. Feel free to open up on them... they go flashy red very quickly. "Ozone is blue and smells faintly of geraniums." (Qi, BBC TV)
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.08.28 10:14:00 - [30] Also worth mentioning that masses of people have no interest in crappy salvage or modules so just leave the stuff floating in space and move onto the next mission. Thousands and thousands of wrecks mounting up causes additional load on the server and that might slow down your game experience - as the ninjas clear the wrecks up that load is lessened - nice helful ninjas, cleaning up space and streamlining the server!

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