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Te Hari	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:52:00 - [31] I want a new alien race to play with. I think that would be the best thing to do and to make it more in depth you will have to add a new category just for their ships and all other tech.
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:59:00 - [32] 1) Backstory should not dictate gameplay, period. You use backstory to enhance gameplay storylines, not vice versa. You can create and alter any backstory you want to fit the implementation of anything. 2) Arguing about whether adding the Jovian race as playable or not is fine. There are sides to argue and debating it is good. Using the previously written backstories as a reason to or not to implement something is just stupid. There are plenty of discrepencies between the chronicals and the actual game as it stands now. Ships crews anyone? If you don't want the Jovians playable, say something like "I like them being this mysterious race you just hear about" "Don't want to see 37839483383830 of them flying around." Not "doesn't fit backstory." 3)Going along with following old backstories, saying a race would be too overpowered before anything is even created for them is stupid. They could be created to be on par with the other races, or just a little better in most aspects with a few weaknesses, something. You can create and adapt a new backstory to account for this. "you can't play as the jovian elders, holders of the best technology, but just as a small rebel group that ventures out of their home space with the limited technology they had access to." Doesn't HAVE to be the backstory, just an example of one of the limitless ways you can adapt a new one.
HeliosGal	Posted - 2009.09.01 10:50:00 - [33] next round of ships are likley to utilise sleeper skills and technologies ( jove may come later) we have 4 ancient races to work with
Proffessor Pwner	Posted - 2009.09.01 12:37:00 - [34] What if they lost one of their ships and pirates backwards engineered it and implemented some of its technology in a new hybrid.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.01 17:17:00 - [35] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 01/09/2009 17:17:41 I agree with Chi'kote. The back story is just there to add depth to the game. Not to dictate gameplay. If this was so then why cant we see the camera drones. they are in relative size to a human from the eve book. If we followed the same line as jovians should be unusable because of the back story then, there should be no cloaks in the game because your cloaking mechanic does not cloak your drones that are +100km away from your ship. If this is true then a enemy ship should beable to triangulate the position of the cloaked ship by looking at where the "cloud" of camera drones are all centraly looking "aka they all look at the cloaked ship because ur ship is in the center of your screen". Just by this once instance we can discern that the backstory does not necessarily dictate gameplay. So all that has to happen is ccp's chronical writers come up with a cleaver story to incorporate the jovians into the other four races. This means that we could have jovian ships that where balanced to be on the same level as the other races or t2 ships. And all the writers have to do is come up with a :) a cool and inventive story to explain it. Because the best part about being ccp is they make the rules. So they can do what ever they want to with the jovians. Plus if any of you have read there was a very interesting last chapter of the book where the, dieing,last member of the jovian eidolon class bs related his thaughts as he and the destroyed ship are "hurled through Point Genesis, which - contrary to Empire lore - was not at all what is seemed..." and that "the hope of an entire race was dying along with him" :) now if that does not get u interested nothing will
Karan SaJet	Posted - 2009.09.01 17:25:00 - [36] Adding jove youd kill the game Would not be fair to players that have been playing since beta Would not be fair to players that are new Would not be fair to players that cannot afford them Jove will be esclusive to CCP thats about it, never implement them it would be the end of EVE.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.01 17:30:00 - [37] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 01/09/2009 17:30:54 Edited by: AmechWorrior on 01/09/2009 17:30:17 If you would read at least a little bit of what is being discussed you would realize that we are not talking about adding them in their UBER GOD FORM but just as another race. They would have basicaly the same stats as all the other races or implement them in a way so that they are like a t2 strength frig, cruiser, ect... with same relation ship to cost. Yes adding them in their current form would be game breaking. But if u add them in as just another race they will add diversity to the game.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.09.01 17:50:00 - [38] Destroying the world logic = Destroying the game Screwing over the Jove backstory just to add some nifty looking new Jove toys for the players is a very, very stupid thing to do. You really need to get a clue about MMORPG design. -------- Ideas for: Mining
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.01 18:07:00 - [39] As I said in my earlier post the backstory does not necessarily dictate gameplay. When you make a game you do not make the game about the story you make the story about the game. Which came first? The game or all the chronicals about the game. They made all thous ABOUT the game, to give it depth and character. They did not write them then make a game about the chronicals. So the whole premise of you cant do that because a story about the game was writen saying so, is wrong. And a new story that explains y these new jovian ships can be used can just as easily be made. So lets say a chronical came out saying like someone else earlier said a rough group of jove broke away form the main group there are already rough jovians who have left the empire in the chronicals and with these technalogicaly limited compared to the rest of the jovians began trading with the other 4 races we get to use these new ships. If we where to go along with your argument that the backstory is law then the new rough jovians must now come into existance.
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.09.01 19:15:00 - [40] Obviously I'm for the added diversity, i started the thread. But I would like to know of the serious drawbacks to doing this. However, no one has posted a reason not to implement Jovians as a playable race (or any other race already in EVE but not playable) other than "doesn't fit with current backstory" or "given current backstory, they'd be too powerful." The reasons those aren't valid have been extensively describe already, won't go back into it. Anyone object to this for an actual VALID reason?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.09.01 19:37:00 - [41] Seriously mutilating the backstory for the sake of a little added diversity is a valid argument against your whole idea. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.09.01 19:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Abrazzar Seriously mutilating the backstory for the sake of a little added diversity is a valid argument against your whole idea. We're not talking mutilation. No one is saying to delete the old chronicals, or say that the Jove somehow lost all their technology. It would be something more subtle and creative, like the aforementioned "rebel group with limited access to jove technology (or older tech, whatever) leave and interact w/ the other 4 races." That is NOT mutilating the old backstory at all. But I have a feeling that ANY variation from what was written months / years ago will be considered a mutilation Out of curiousity, to those who think any deviation from current / old backstory deserves capital punishment, what do you think about the other current deviations? Are you upset we don't have ship crews? Do you care that we can cloak but our camera drones don't give us away? Or that we don't disconnect from camera drones when cloaked like we do other drones? Or any number of other differences I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.01 19:57:00 - [43] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 01/09/2009 19:58:40 Y is this concept so hard for you to understand. The backstory is what ever ccp says it is. Period. Im not going to repeat my self from earlier but they can intergrate new jove ships into the backstory as easily as just adding a new chronical to explain y. And secondly adding a full 25% more ships is no small addition. We are talking about adding a whole new race! That everyone can train in just like people split train from their original race all the time. This will add new material into the game diversifing it, but also adding new tactics to the game as people use these new ships to the fullest of their capabilities. These new ships will be nerfed, buffed, and whined about as ccp works out how to intergrate them into the current universe people still whine about different ships and modules that are already in the game. But this will eventualy increase the experiance of the game as they are worked out. Because if the jovians were add in essence you are getting a whole new race to play with. This would be no small addition to the game but one of epic scale. Again ur adding a whole new race to the game. But apon the same scale will be the dimintion of gameplay that would be added with the addition of the jovian race.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Chi'kote 1) Backstory should not dictate gameplay, period. You use backstory to enhance gameplay storylines, not vice versa. You can create and alter any backstory you want to fit the implementation of anything. 2) Arguing about whether adding the Jovian race as playable or not is fine. There are sides to argue and debating it is good. Using the previously written backstories as a reason to or not to implement something is just stupid. There are plenty of discrepencies between the chronicals and the actual game as it stands now. Ships crews anyone? If you don't want the Jovians playable, say something like "I like them being this mysterious race you just hear about" "Don't want to see 37839483383830 of them flying around." Not "doesn't fit backstory." 3)Going along with following old backstories, saying a race would be too overpowered before anything is even created for them is stupid. They could be created to be on par with the other races, or just a little better in most aspects with a few weaknesses, something. You can create and adapt a new backstory to account for this. "you can't play as the jovian elders, holders of the best technology, but just as a small rebel group that ventures out of their home space with the limited technology they had access to." Doesn't HAVE to be the backstory, just an example of one of the limitless ways you can adapt a new one. So glad you are not the one that decides things. Because if things were like you want EVE woudl be compltely rubish. A LOT of people find the backstory and suspension of disbelief MORE important than game balance! Backstory might be for dreamers.. but the need for game balance is for loosers... ( little sentence from my favorite WW2 fligth sim forums :P )
Nekopyat	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:20:00 - [45] Originally by: Markus Reese IMO, the best way to make jovians playable is to have it so much like the pirate faction ships, you need multiple skillsets to use them. Say, all four? Since the jovians are letting us pilot their ships, They could be limited as result of us being to young to use their full technology. I am not sure I would want such ships to be Jovian.... but the idea of ships that require all 4 racial skills appeals quite a bit ^_^
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Seishi Maru So glad you are not the one that decides things. Because if things were like you want EVE woudl be compltely rubish. A LOT of people find the backstory and suspension of disbelief MORE important than game balance! Backstory might be for dreamers.. but the need for game balance is for loosers... ( little sentence from my favorite WW2 fligth sim forums :P ) First, if you find the story more important than the game, go read a book. Why are you paying $15 / month for a playable game when what matters the most is a collection of short stories? Just buy a book or 2 a month, or just have no account and read the chronicals for free. I'm just going to have to assume that a lot of people here are very close-minded. I don't understand why an additional tweak to the current storyline is equivalent to a total destruction. You have to be flexible and allow things to grow in the future. If EVE was as static as you want your backstories about it to be, then it would be unbearibly repetitive and boring, and would ultimately die from lack of growth and change. You can still have uber advanced jovians in your backstories that you can't play as, and a group w/ less technology (built into the stories) that you can play. This is the best of both worlds. If backstory is the most important thing to you (and god why is it) then you get your precious unchanged old stories with a few new additions to digest. If the game is most important (this is after all a game, not a book), then you get your new toys to play with to keep you interested.
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Seishi Maru So glad you are not the one that decides things. Because if things were like you want EVE woudl be compltely rubish. A LOT of people find the backstory and suspension of disbelief MORE important than game balance! Backstory might be for dreamers.. but the need for game balance is for loosers... ( little sentence from my favorite WW2 fligth sim forums :P ) Wtf? You and your alts you mean? Who are all carebears?
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:35:00 - [48] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 01/09/2009 20:36:28 Quote: So glad you are not the one that decides things. Because if things were like you want EVE woudl be compltely rubish. A LOT of people find the backstory and suspension of disbelief MORE important than game balance! Backstory might be for dreamers.. but the need for game balance is for loosers... ( little sentence from my favorite WW2 fligth sim forums :P ) Im so glad you care about a story more than the game its self. Ok by the "backstory" the amarrians have a weapon that can destroy an entire fleet including a titan with one shot. (cited from the ever book Emperian Age) If that was in the game that would be game breaking no? If backstory is more important than the game then why have the game, if you want that would it not be more fitting if ccp took all their effor away from making games and just write books. What we are talking about transends backstory. You would have to add to the backstory to incoporate the jovians. The same way the new wh where add to the game through this same meathod. So saying u cant add this or that to a game because of backstory is just wrong. Your ADDING to the game something that use to not be there of course you have too add to the backstory as well. The same goes with stratagetic cruisers. They where nowhere in the backstory or anywhere else for that matter but ccp added them through the addition of them through the backstory of the wormholes.
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.02 04:48:00 - [49] Lots of arguement about backstory etc. If you follow eve, there is no written in backstory. The story for most thing in eve, aside from historic points came before the events. Jovians were the way they were before eve opened. The story was there, at least in somebody's head. Again I re-iterate why they shouldn't be selected as a starting race. One is obviously where they are located. 2, every old player and not so old like myself would be ****ed. Is one thing to add something new and cool that we might not have been training towards, is another to add something that if we wanted, we would need to restart the game. Read up on the society of concious thought. It is a group guided by the jovians. In any way shape or form, if capsuleers are immortal, the jovians are the gods that made us. There is no way, form or how to make them startable. Only way that jovians can be worked in for the players is to make it earned, just like they are in the chronicles, best and brightest. Jovian ships should also be powerful, and to reflect enlightenment, I re-state my comment about needing all four racial to use jovian version. Plus, anything by their description would be a gift, something binding. I think that anything jovian would be bound to the owner, something non-tradable/sellable. You gotta earn your jove ship via lp, and when you get it, yours and nobody elses. I think this would greatly match the jovian philosophy in the backstory. Also would be why the ships would be powerful, should be able to take on 2-1 or whatever, but they wouldn't give us a pure warship, it would be as the apotheosis description says, a gift for the children of the stars. A toy compared to pure jovian fitting cause our feeble brains wouldn't be able to control full power.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.02 05:14:00 - [50] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 02/09/2009 05:16:06 Edited by: AmechWorrior on 02/09/2009 05:14:33 I kind of agree with you markus. But kind of dont. But I think this being my own opinion and by no way the right one. Is add the jovian as a race that everyone can start as but that does not mean that is the only race you can be. Same way as someone can start out being Caldari and train to fly gal ships the same would be for jovian. New players could start as jovian. Old players can buy the skill books and train to use jove too. The jovian ships be more expensive then normal (aka other four races) by say a factor of 2 this could be worked out to what ever but u have to consider the availability of these ships too new players with their limited isk. But the strength of a jovian ship be say 1.5 that of a normal ship this can be worked out "balanced" with the cost factor to not make them wtfpawnagemobills but also make them worth the extra dough. (Note this would have to also be worked out with insurance as well.) Give them a new type of weapon called the tingamagaget so they have their own racial weapon ie. missles, lazors, blasters, etc... This weapon will be based off the same scale costs more but performs a little better than other weapons. Get my drift. plan (b) they are highly specialized but they are good at what they do This whole premise for haveing jove, and them not being wtfpawnage is that a rough faction broke away from them years ago have lost some of the limited technology they where able to steal before leaving the jove and because they have fallen into extreamly bad times they have been forced to finaly start trades with the rest of the universe (this is the rough faction not the actual jove civilization which are still wtfpawnage awsome). This acounts for there less than godly nature in that they did not have all the jove tech to begin with and they have lost some of it over time just like the other 4 races did with terran tech. Plus ccp can come up with a super cool way of spiceing the story up. This adds a whole new race to play as, effectively adding 25% more stuff to the universe. This would not be a easy or quick add. And dont think of the addition as the addition of a uber race but one thats t1 stuff=t1.5 stuff and the cost of said stuff is proportional to the rewards you get from it. That and when you have the minds of ccp working on balanceing said stuff, they can balance it much more efficently than some random person can in the 20 min it takes to post this.
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.02 05:25:00 - [51] Ahh, I got ya a bit better ^.^ I am a roleplayer though, as part. I just cannot really see any way to truely make jovian a playable race, they are just way to out there (both in location and action) I did like the idea of having the full mass of ships, but they are just way to mysterious to suddenly have 1/4 of eve's population become jovian. Much like flying a faction ship, I think that having them a full with high sec section of space would be great. Have them operate just like a 5th empire with full ship compliment like you suggest. But they would need to be a reward. I want them in game as much as anybody else, but I still would like them to maintain that aura of mystery, for people to go, ooooh cool when somebody flies by in their ship. Imagine needing capital ship Vx4 then training jovian battlehship as well, they would be an expensive and rare sight. Otherwize they would be as common as a raven within 4 months. I like the whole schebang, but as a reward, not a flavour of the month. I just cannot see it in any part being able to work well as a starting race, would just need way too many changes to the maps, play etc.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.02 12:03:00 - [52] The problem that i see with giving them as a reward ie. something cool after carriers and such. There are ALOT of carrier/dread pilots. So there will not be any scarcety in the new jovian ship. Then u run into the black ops they cost alot but dont realy perform syndrome that they will cost more than or equal to a carrier so they have to be worth that isk ur spending on them besides something cool to look at. So then you run into the fact that u have a wtfpawnagemobill that way more powerful than anything else. And that would be game breaking. So it is either nerfed to hell so that its a +1 billion isk hanger queen. Or no one can touch me I'm in my uber ship. And if you think of an alliance that can fill hundreds of them that is a scary sight. So you have to have a ship that almost everyone in eve can use. And it needs to be worth the extra isk, but it cant be too much stronger than the normal ships or that will be what everyone flies. There has to be a trade off otherwise once some gets to jovian tech thats the only thing they are going to fly. Which will ruin the game. So it has to be somethign like the t2 trade off. You get a better ship (but not too much better), but it costs alot more to lose it than a t1 ship. Not to mention alot of the time they are more specialized than their brothers.
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.03 03:20:00 - [53] Hmm... Very true about alliances with whole fleets. That is why I like the idea of them not being purchasable, but as LP reward bound to your character. Large alliances won't field fleets as they cannot make them and they cannot carebear all the time to keep a steady stockpile.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.03 03:37:00 - [54] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 03/09/2009 03:38:23 Edited by: AmechWorrior on 03/09/2009 03:38:00 But now you run into the issue of them being carebear exclusives. Because the hard core pvper's wont have the lp to buy them and because they would be untradable/sellable the pvper's would not beable to pay with isk what they would with lp's. And because its rare ships then they would cost a **** ton of lp's so unless you do some serious carebearing they will be pretty much unatainable to pvper's. Now thats just me I cant stand to run missions. But I know there are people that run missions and pvp. But because you dont want everyone flying them they will cost alot of lp's so even if your a pvper who runs missions it will be just that much more difficult to get them. And for god's sake we cant give carebears something that cool
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.03 03:54:00 - [55] Edited by: Markus Reese on 03/09/2009 03:56:06 Yeah, I was thinking that myself. Wonder if there is another sort of median option. Hmm... I personally wouldn't mission run for months on end just to get one, I get peeved enough just trying for standings. Is a dilemma. One way could be with a new mission type, like the distress call mission thread I have been posting in. Hard to get, but not carebearing... is a tough dilema indeed.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.03 04:16:00 - [56] Edited by: AmechWorrior on 03/09/2009 04:18:12 I hear ya about the standing grinding and all. But if you truely balance the ship to begin with there is no need to make them nontradable/sellable. Because their not overpowerd or underpowered. Its just another option available to you. Shall i take the Armageddon or the Abaddon kind of question? Because you will be asking ur self do i want to pay more for this and it be a little better or go with a cheaper ship that im not as much worried about loseing. Because its just like Say someone gets a jove crusier its not like they are now in a wtfpawnage ship they are just it a more expensive ship that took a little longer to train for but is a little higher quality ship. Its not like the standard jove crusier is the equivilent of a t2 crusier. Is more like i payed 40 mill for this crusier and it is insurable to 20 mil but say it has 7.5% higher resists than a normal crusier and 7.5% more dps. So if a normal crusier would get a 5% resist bounus the jove would get 7.5% same with damage. *these numbers are completely arbatrary and can be adjusted either way to balance the ship* That way if someone wants to make a jove pure fleet that fleet may be a little stronger than normal ships but at the risk of loseing more when they lose their ship. Same way with t2 ships. The amount of money that the insurance does not cover will have to be increased as the ships go up because there is no t2 bs realy, ok black ops but not realy. Plus you have to account for the difference in jove modules will cost more than normal modules. ie. a gun normally cost 2 mil, jove race specific like lasers are to amarr cost 4 mil or whatever. If the jove ships are balanced right there is no need to give them to the select few. Or make them real hard to get. Hell you can start as jove its just that a new player will have to realize that if they start as jove all their stuff will cost more and take longer to train for but at the benifit that they are slightly better.
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.03 04:41:00 - [57] Hmm... I guess if executed right, it would be plausable, but the story is the key part. If it was player startable, it would more be along the lines of the society of concious thought sects. The one part I was forgetting is that all items are player made ^.^ So much like ore you need to go to outer rim, for the jove blueprints, you need to go to jovian space. Maybe special ore from jove? This way, is access to all, has that rarer feel to it, but still can meet with fluff. Make those BPO's tougher to get would make an amicable solution for all. I still like the idea of needing all four of a faction's trained to fly one though ^.^
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:58:00 - [58] I kind of like that. It would limit the number of them in the game because to fly say a jovian frig you would need gal frig 4, cal frig 4, min frig 4, amarr frig 4. Those would be prerequisits to the jovian frig. And the frig would have its own skill book. Only problem I see is you would have to increase the strength of the jovian ships more than my idea to make them worth training all those skills. But then you start to run into balance issues again.
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.09.03 12:22:00 - [59] If you can't start out as a Jovian, just implemented ships and such, then I could go along with needing all 4 races to fly them. But if you can start as a jovian (fully playable race), then that is undue hardship on those players. If you start out as Jove, on top of all the normal skills you would need to train to fly ships well, you would have to train frigate 4 times, cruiser 4 times, BS 4 times, etc etc, just to fly your race's ships. So if Jove is fully playable (i.e. you can start out as a jovian), then you can't make the other 4 races as a prerequisite. If you can't start out as a jovian, then you can.
AmechWorrior Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.09.03 12:44:00 - [60] O im not arguing with you their. I agree fully with you on that. If I came across sounding like I did not mean too. I have always thought that. Now I say, I dont know what the actual train time is on a normal frig skill but lets just say its 2. A jove frig would be a 3. If we were to go by my original post of jove being a startable race. I would say all the jove skills train a little slower than normal skills. All the jove ships and modules cost more and are not insurable to 100%. Jove modules can only be used on jove ships to keep from having to balance normal ships with jove modules. I think this would balance a startable race so that although ur ship is say 20% stronger than a normal ship it took you longer to train for it. And it cost you more to not only buy it but lose it as well. Not to mention jovian ammo like all other jove stuff costs alot unless they are cap based like amarr lasers.

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