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[Issue] Finite Moon Mineral Production

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Zara Skyray Caldari Carthage.	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:19:00 - [1] I posted the following in another beleaguered whine thread, and thought it might be good to liberated and made its own issue. Quote: The number of players in the game is increasing, not decreasing, and thus the number of pilots wanting to fly T2 ships is also increasing. However, the total supply of the moon minerals needed to make these ships is stagnant. Every other building material in the game has a more-or-less unlimited supply (there can always be more missions run/rats killed, minerals mined). Some new factor will likely be needed in the future to accommodate the rising demand. In short, the demand for T2 will continue to increase as time goes on and pilots get older, but the supply of moon minerals (particularly the valuable R64s) at best remains constant and at worst decreases (due to blockades, etc). This is a unique mechanic in EVE - the supply of any other material (ore, isk, construction blocks etc) can be increased arbitrarily to meet increasing demands on the economy. Before I go any further, let me add that this is not an emo-rage thread against the "evil 0.0 alliances" nor an attempt to de-monopolize or otherwise interfere with their ability to fund their continued hold of sovereign nullsec. I simply wish to point out the problem inherent in the system and open up dialogue on possible solutions that would be of benefit to all (those evil alliance bastards included ). Here are some possible suggestions of ways that the inevitable shortage of T2 materials might be avoided (will be updated with the ideas of others as they are suggested and discussed): 1) Lower the time/material costs of the Alchemy system to make it a valid method of meeting market demand. Currently, alchemy requires so many resources that it is hard to imagine it ever becoming a cost-effective supplement to the T2 market - so much so that by the time alchemy breaks even, the T2 market will have already entered severe shortfalls. Reducing these costs would make it a more viable alternative. 2) Create a ship class capable of moon mining alongside a POS. Part of the reason that minerals and named modules will never experience widespread shortfalls is that and increase in the cost of Tritanium or Arbalest Heavy Missile Launchers encourages miners and mission runners to step up production of these items through mining more rocks or running more missions. Such an option is not currently available to increase the amount of moon minerals that can be generated in a given time period. A ship class capable of mining moon minerals would allow pilots (most likely those in big alliances, since they have access to the moons) to increase production. One idea might be a super-cap version of the Rorqual - and thus unable to be built outside Sov nullsec - that can moon mine while providing fleet bonuses (or even system-wide bonuses) to mining while operational. 3) Create an "Alchemy Style" mechanic that allows T3 materials to be converted to T2 and vice versa. Self-explanatory. Has the disadvantage of removing alliance control over T2 manufacturing. Additionally, the current form of Alchemy in the game is already broken, and adding another may not help. The advantage would be normalizing the T2 and T3 markets in a way that allow either to compensate for shortages in the other. Please indicate your support and propose other ideas.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:13:00 - [2] 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo.
De'Veldrin Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:19:00 - [3] I'm actually leaning in the direction of Hersch's proposal as fix. Have sites you can scan down that could be exploited by ships with the right equipment. You could, as an aside, also only make them available in low and null sec or WH space, adding an inducement to get more characters out of high sec and into those areas where the risk is higher. --Vel Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an asshat.
darius mclever	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. that already exists iirc? isnt alchemy what you are looking for?
Gaven Darklighter	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:24:00 - [5] Might possibly incorporate it into a probe-able site of some sort, rough idea, say a new spin on a salvaging site, where you interact with ruins of a moon mining facility, or possibly a new type of profession in the gravimetric vein in which a new type of miner is introduced with moon asteroids with varying elemental composition. One way or another, this is obviously something that could become a future issue.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:29:00 - [6] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. that already exists iirc? isnt alchemy what you are looking for? From the OP Quote: 1) Lower the time/material costs of the Alchemy system to make it a valid method of meeting market demand. Currently, alchemy requires so many resources that it is hard to imagine it ever becoming a cost-effective supplement to the T2 market - so much so that by the time alchemy breaks even, the T2 market will have already entered severe shortfalls. Reducing these costs would make it a more viable alternative. --Vel Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an asshat.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:44:00 - [7] Probe-able 'comets' which spawn in lowsec and 0.0 and can be ninja-mined for exotic materials for a few hours/days/weeks before they move on would at least be a tangible reason for money-makers to leave highsec for a time. So, support not necessarily for the OP's suggested solutions (not because I disagree but because I have no strong opinion either way), but for something to address the problem that it raised and the ideas in the posts that followed.
Slave 2739FKZ	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:30:00 - [8] WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations. Dust514 is a console shooter/rts which will tie into EVE and affect sov.
Zara Skyray Caldari Carthage.	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:32:00 - [9] The comet/moon asteroids idea has merit. I'm not sure how CCP would feel about providing an option that circumvents the current monopoly system, but what the hell - balance isn't my problem and I'm not making any money off of moon mins In my mind, limiting these spawns to lowsec/0.0/WHs would be both more likely to be implemented and would encourage pilots to move below 0.5 space. It would also be nice if these "comets" function on a different mechanic than current belt 'roids. Maybe they should actually move (perhaps quickly?)...
Hrodgar Ortal	Posted - 2009.08.28 04:49:00 - [10] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. that already exists iirc? isnt alchemy what you are looking for? At a global level perhaps, haven't seen any figures on the total amount produced by alchemy. There are something like 1000 chrom moons in the game and about 200 prom moons. So the theoretical production of prometium (ignoring cadmium as it is the secondary input in both) would be about 50000 of which the alchemy would be 20%. However chromium is needed in other reactions that are needed as well and of course cadmium is also needed which should be about as common as chrom. My guess would be that at most 20% of the chrom moons are used for alchemy giving a total addition of 4.7% prometium and that amount isn't going to make much of an impact to the price and availability of prometium.

Jettisoned Can Jenova's Witnesses	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:11:00 - [11] Supported. Not necessarily your particular ideas, but a new scalable source of moon minerals. Possibly new types of roids that give moon minerals could be available from probed sites and mining missions with good minerals available from lvl 4 missions and 0.0 sites. _________________________ Did you really not have enough room for me? I'm only 1m¦.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:17:00 - [12] Add moon mining to W-space? Add more 0.0 space (+4 new NPC regions plx)? Add moon minerals to hauler spawn drop tables? Tweak the alchemy conversion rates?
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:03:00 - [13] Signed, Signed, Signed. The moon-mineral bottleneck compared with ever-rising demand is spiraling prices too high and won't stop until the bottleneck is loosened or EVE starts dying (population drop). That said, the cheaper rigs have made the problem somewhat less urgent than it was before (by converging t1 and t2 performance by making rigged-out t1 ships worth fitting), but, it's still a serious issue.
Arama Bishop	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:35:00 - [14] Yes it's a good idea
Roemy Schneider Vanishing Point.	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. a mining ship that has to use an afterburner... i like it ^^ finally a job where minmatar would not be pre-nerf'ed for once - putting the gist back into logistics
Dave Meltdown Capital Construction Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:26:00 - [16]
El Liptonez	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:42:00 - [17] Edited by: El Liptonez on 28/08/2009 12:44:37 Edited by: El Liptonez on 28/08/2009 12:43:21 Someone in another thread brought the idea up to just make every moon in EVE drop a certain amount of everything. So every moon drops his amount of chromium, scandium, atmospheric gases and also a small amount of dyspro and prometium... The better moons just drop more of the high end minerals. Still, I really really like the idea of exploration/comets. Could imagine comet types like asteroids, low sec comets drop some R16 stuff, and nullsec up to R64, in a good mix of junk, crap and valuable stuff. Edit: Please never never ever make moons mineable by players. I don't wanna see macros on the moons too.
Ykatni Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:50:00 - [18] Originally by: El Liptonez Edited by: El Liptonez on 28/08/2009 12:44:37 Edited by: El Liptonez on 28/08/2009 12:43:21 Someone in another thread brought the idea up to just make every moon in EVE drop a certain amount of everything. So every moon drops his amount of chromium, scandium, atmospheric gases and also a small amount of dyspro and prometium... The better moons just drop more of the high end minerals. Still, I really really like the idea of exploration/comets. Could imagine comet types like asteroids, low sec comets drop some R16 stuff, and nullsec up to R64, in a good mix of junk, crap and valuable stuff. Edit: Please never never ever make moons mineable by players. I don't wanna see macros on the moons too. I used to do a bit of moon mining and always wondered why CCP didn't allow moon mining to have random amounts of r64/32/16/8/gases /w the primary type. It would help stabilize the pricing a bit and reduce the inflation within Eve.
Zara Skyray Caldari Carthage.	Posted - 2009.08.28 20:51:00 - [19] Originally by: El Liptonez Someone in another thread brought the idea up to just make every moon in EVE drop a certain amount of everything. So every moon drops his amount of chromium, scandium, atmospheric gases and also a small amount of dyspro and prometium... The better moons just drop more of the high end minerals. This might well be a good idea that would help a lot of things (de-monopolization for one), but I'm reluctant to suggest changes which continue to depend on moon mining - after all, the whole problem is that there are a limited, unchanging quantity of moons and thus a limited number of mins. However, this idea might well deserve its own [Issue] and I'd likely support it. Originally by: El Liptonez Please never never ever make moons mineable by players. I don't wanna see macros on the moons too. I agree with you that macro'ers are bad. That's why, if such a capability were added to a ship, I think it would have to be either a Capital or Super Capital ship that needs to enter a sort of "Siege" mode in order to mine moons. Perhaps sovereignty would also be necessary... but it would certainly have to be used outside of a POS shield - the idea would be that these ships are profitable but vulnerable. If someone can meet these requirements and wants to macro a multi-billion isk ship... that's CCPs problem. The benefit of either an exploration or ship-based solution is that it makes production scalable. As prices increase, more people look for the sites or more alliances build the moon mining supercap, etc. This solves the "finite" problem inherent in the current system. That said, I'd hate to be the poor bastard stuck in a supercap dedicated to mining an object that never moves or disappears. Frankly, some sort of "mining but more challenging/interesting/dangerous etc" solution seems better than adding yet another ship that generates isk by sitting perfectly still
jemos	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Scatim Helicon Probe-able 'comets' which spawn in lowsec and 0.0 and can be ninja-mined for exotic materials for a few hours/days/weeks before they move on would at least be a tangible reason for money-makers to leave highsec for a time. So, support not necessarily for the OP's suggested solutions (not because I disagree but because I have no strong opinion either way), but for something to address the problem that it raised and the ideas in the posts that followed. Not to be a total wise ass, but comets move rather fast. I'd like to see a hulk mine them. The picture in my head more points to an inty struggeling to catch the damned thing to mine from it! But, supported! Originally by: FireT If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.

Ykatni Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.29 15:35:00 - [21] Moon Harvesting Array II's aren't seeded yet, so I don't think the situation calls for changes to pre-cursor harvesting. At any point they can seed the t2 harvesting variants, which will increase supply. In the event they need to increase supply more they will simply modify additional r64's to have additional quantity to make use of the T2 harvesters.
Scatim Helicon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.30 21:37:00 - [22] Originally by: jemos Originally by: Scatim Helicon Probe-able 'comets' which spawn in lowsec and 0.0 and can be ninja-mined for exotic materials for a few hours/days/weeks before they move on would at least be a tangible reason for money-makers to leave highsec for a time. So, support not necessarily for the OP's suggested solutions (not because I disagree but because I have no strong opinion either way), but for something to address the problem that it raised and the ideas in the posts that followed. Not to be a total wise ass, but comets move rather fast. I'd like to see a hulk mine them. The picture in my head more points to an inty struggeling to catch the damned thing to mine from it! I guess it could be like gas cloud mining with the ejected debris that makes up the tail sticking around for a few days before it disperses too much - that's also a semi-realistic (heh EVE and realism) explanation for the resource being temporary.
Zara Skyray Caldari Carthage Industries Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Ykatni Moon Harvesting Array II's aren't seeded yet, so I don't think the situation calls for changes to pre-cursor harvesting. At any point they can seed the t2 harvesting variants, which will increase supply. In the event they need to increase supply more they will simply modify additional r64's to have additional quantity to make use of the T2 harvesters. That can remedy the problem in the short-term, but not really fix it. The problem is that as long as T2 is tied to a rigid generation mechanic which does not allow for players to increase production to meet rising demand, then there will always be shortfalls and inflation (unless the player-base shrinks, in which case you have the opposite problem). Also, those solutions will likely result in severe market fluctuations which might potentially destabilize both the market and 0.0 dramatically. For instance, if T2 moon miners were introduced tomorrow, every alliance would install them asap on all their R64s and R32s... the result being a VERY sudden increase in T2 material supplies and sudden drop in prices. The net effect of such a change would be difficult to protect... but if it either reduced or increased the profitability of R64s and R32s that could have serious repercussions throughout EVE (destabilizing massive alliances, etc). Markets (whether IRL or in-game) depend on a certain degree of flexibility and dependability. The reason that producers of other items in-game are able to consistently meet demand and prices remain largely stable is that the supply can always be increased. As long as the ingredients necessary for T2 mods and ships (essential items used by the majority of players to some degree or another), the market will always be in danger of significant, game-altering fluctuations.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.31 06:37:00 - [24] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. that already exists iirc? isnt alchemy what you are looking for? Not especially. Alchemy increases the hard cap somewhat, but it doesn't remove it or even really delay it. In practice, the gains from alchemy mostly went towards making the exploit removal not blow up the market entirely, and in replacing the cheater's dysporite. My goal is to make it so that there is no more of a cap on the game's supply of dysprosium than there is of tritanium. Moons should still exist, and they should still be relevant and profitable, but the game shouldn't be forced to have a major segment of the market labour under a hard cap that was set in a different era and that is far too low for modern T2 production.
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:51:00 - [25] Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 31/08/2009 12:52:00 Of all the solutions, Alchemy is a dead-end and should not be pursued any further: - It does not fix the scaling issues and is already almost running near maximum capacity. - The current formulae do not fix the material type issues that made it necessary in the first place. Dysprosium and Promethium were required in excessive amounts by complex reactions, the replacements for their outputs require excessive amounts of Cadmium and Chromium instead. - Moon mining rewards land races much more than it rewards individual effort. What effort is spent on it is spent in the most tedious fashion imaginable. The less emphasis put on it, the better. I proposed my own solution to this, which is reacting asteroid ores into T2 materials, a solution with many secondary benefits and built-in market-based controls to the potential negative effects (i.e. oversupply). Thread here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1164657 Supported anyway because this needs to be fixed.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.08.31 14:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto 4) Provide an alternate source of T2 materials to take the hard cap off. The most common proposal I've seen for this would be "comet mining" - have objects that can be mined with special gear and refine into T2 materials. Make them transient, and higher-difficulty, so that people don't just mine them into oblivion like they do with ice, but it'd provide a source not related to moons, while still leaving moons as the best and easiest source of T2 materials, similar to how BPOs are for T2. Still, supporting a fix to the ludicrous status quo. Supporting what hersh said. Put some moon mins in roids or something. Maybe in belt rat loot. Don't care really. As long as it's not ONLY available from moons. Just say NO to static resources in MMO's!
Maewei Balducci	Posted - 2009.08.31 19:38:00 - [27] Quote: So every moon drops his amount of chromium, scandium, atmospheric gases and also a small amount of dyspro and prometium... The better moons just drop more of the high end minerals. seems like a good idea, but not really the answer for this topic ^^ the WH space one is really good, comet or perhaps a mini-moon harvester
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.09.01 04:38:00 - [28] Mixing Dysprosium and Promethium into other items isn't really a great solution because it's uncontrollable and could do anything from very little (if they don't make their source worthwhile) to crash the market for them (if it causes a glut of unneeded supply, i.e. certain salvage items and Thulium). Ideally, there should be choice involved: Either produce just Dysprosium/Promethium via some mechanism, or don't produce it at all. Doing that means their supply can be easily scaled up or down to meet demand without unwanted byproducts.
Zara Skyray Caldari Carthage Industries Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.09.01 04:39:00 - [29] Originally by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt I proposed my own solution to this, which is reacting asteroid ores into T2 materials, a solution with many secondary benefits and built-in market-based controls to the potential negative effects (i.e. oversupply). Thread here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1164657 Supported anyway because this needs to be fixed. This is excellent, and will be added up top. While I might differ somewhat on your implementation (e.g. I'm not sure that requiring Rorquals is necessarily the best solution) the general concept is solid.


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