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[Proposal] Asteroid ores --> Intermediate material reactions

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WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:19:00 - [1] Multiple solutions have been proposed for taking care of the mess that is mining, and expanding it as a "career." At the same time, T2 materials are still a largely bottlenecked resource, and alchemy simply shifted it to another bottlenecked resource. Both will completely fail to scale as the player base grows. What I see as the best solution to this is to add reactions to convert asteroid ores directly into T2 materials. This is preferable to making asteroids contain some T2 materials because by making the reactions destructive, players have the choice of converting asteroids to T1 materials or T2 materials, allowing the value of asteroids to always be the higher of the two. Having a second price floor will make asteroids more resistant to market fluctuations. At the same time, this will create something that is drastically needed: A way to produce T2 materials that scales effectively with individual player effort. Consider the following reactions: 1 Compressed Arkonor --> 100 Dysporite 1 Compressed Bistot --> 100 Ferroflurite Composite 1 Compressed Crokite --> 100 Prometium 1 Compressed Dark Ochre --> 100 Fluxed Mercurite Composite Refinables: - 100 Ferroflurite Composite --> 50 Ferrofluid + 50 Hyperflurite - 100 Fluxed Mercurite Composite --> 1400 Neo Mercurite + 1400 Fluxed Condensates This system allows +5% and +10% ores to scale properly, since their associated reactions would simply produce 5/10% more output. It also means that ore compression would become more than just logistically convenient, it would be an integral part of running a conversion operation. There is obviously the question of "how much ISK are we talking about?" Well, based strictly on the mining yield of a max-skilled Hulk with no MLUs or bonuses (which is about 1614 m3/minute) and current market prices, it looks something like this: - Arkonor: 54.5M/hr - Bistot: 50.9M/hr - Crokite: 40M/hr - Dark Ochre: 35M/hr These scale up with ore quality and bonuses. In practice, a good chunk of it would be offset by the logistical time constraints of hauling asteroids around, and downward pressure would be exerted on T2 material prices. Advantages of this proposal: - Improves the value of asteroid mining without causing a glut of T1 minerals - Makes asteroid mining more resilient to market fluctuations - Adds a price control to T2 materials that scales with player activity - Allows asteroid mining to have a place in a more complex production operation - Rewards the expansion of mining operations into lowsec/nullsec without forcing it there - Gives the Rorqual's ore compression function a major role - Very easy for CCP to develop: Add 12 reaction blueprints, 2 refinables, and that's it
Frabba GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:30:00 - [2] I support this product and or service.
TheFrabbot	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:30:00 - [3] I support this product and or service.
Frabbx	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:33:00 - [4] I support this product and or service.
Wisp3	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:34:00 - [5] This is a really good idea, signed.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:43:00 - [6] The numbers will need to be balanced some more, but overall I think this is probably one of the better ideas I've seen for balancing mining/moon mining.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:33:00 - [7] As a former miner, and now moon miner, I feel these reactions will provide an effective bridge between the two activities.
Seriously Bored	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:07:00 - [8] That actually looks like a pretty thoughtful idea. Thumbs up.
De'Veldrin Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:05:00 - [9] I'm in. --Vel Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an asshat.
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:12:00 - [10] Why not... ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================

Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:27:00 - [11] Yup. This is pretty much hitting two flys with one stone. Just say NO to static resources! Numbers need a bit of work, but the consept is good. I fully endorse this product and/ore service (pun intended)
Ty'r Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 17:05:00 - [12] Great idea!
Trantz	Posted - 2009.08.28 17:09:00 - [13] Good suggestion.
Andrest Disch Debitum Naturae	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:29:00 - [14] Supported
jemos	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:29:00 - [15] I give you my support! Though all those numbers/names means nothing to me. But I do realise that 200m isk/t2 cruiser(/mining ship for my alt) is not a good development for a Pvp(cough industrial) game! Originally by: FireT If you have capitals..... well for the love of Raptor Pope, use them before they rust away.
Cick Lunt	Posted - 2009.08.28 22:11:00 - [16] pretty good idea
steave435 Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:03:00 - [17] Yes
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.08.29 02:18:00 - [18] Edited by: WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt on 29/08/2009 02:19:01 Some answers to questions asked about this: How is asteroid system coverage? Are there issues with cartels? Arkonor spawns in 151 systems, almost exclusively in Angel space. Crokite spawns in 228 systems, almost exclusively outside of Angel space. Bistot spawns in 334 systems, relatively independent of territory. Dark Ochre spawns in 506 systems, relatively independent of territory. Due to the complex reaction formulae, regions would be capable of producing either Fermionic Condensates (Arkonor) or Ferrogel (Crokite) from asteroids, but not both. This proporation is also reflected in the demand for those respective materials. i.e. there is a lot more Crokite than Arkonor, and there is a lot more demand for Ferrogel than Fermionics. How many player hours would it take to match existing supply? Assume that the average barge pilot gets 90,000 m3/hr, and ore quality averages +5%. That means about 5.625 compressed Bistot or Arkonor per hour, or 4.5 Compressed Crokite per hour. In the last 10 days, Jita moved: 434,197 Fermionic Condensates per day, requiring 217,098 units of Prometium and Dysporite. This would equate to 2,297 Compressed Crimson Arkonor and and 2,067 Compressed Triclinic Bistot, or about 776 player hours of activity. 1,612,606 Ferrogel per day, requiring 403,152 units of Prometium, Hyperflurite, and Ferrofluid. This would equate to 3,840 Compressed Triclinic Bistot and 8,532 Compressed Sharp Crokite, or about 2,579 player hours of activity. Matching the activity of both in just Jita would require around 3,355 player hours per day, not counting time spent compressing or reacting. Wouldn't this result in runaway deflation of T2 material? It would result in downward price pressure. However, there's a lower limit to this, which is the point where converting asteroids becomes less profitable than just refining them into T1 materials. That's one of the primary benefits: More sources for T2 material and more uses for asteroids means more price stability for both.
Valanan Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.29 02:37:00 - [19]
Cpt Underpants Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.08.31 04:05:00 - [20]

BiaXia GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.31 04:19:00 - [21] I think it still needs some tweaks to the moon min output numbers, but it's otherwise a very good suggestion. Supported.
A'ruhn Intergalactic Spacegoats Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.31 06:23:00 - [22] Very much supported, price stability is a good thing, as is a general decrease in T2 costs.
Verys Burning Technologies Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:50:00 - [23] I like this, not only will it open the t2 production market to smaller scale corporations but it will also give the bigger alliance who own the entire market with their moons some more competition next to adding an actually interesting dimension into the mining profession.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:28:00 - [24] This doesn't make mining any more interesting, and high-end ores have never had a problem with their value getting too low, meaning that they don't need the price supports. While I appreciate the thought, I don't believe that this is the correct solution to either problem.
AstroPhobic Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:55:00 - [25] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 31/08/2009 17:54:58 Supporting a proposal which both limits moon profitability and decreases t2 prices.
WarDecEvading NPCCorpAlt	Posted - 2009.09.01 04:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto high-end ores have never had a problem with their value getting too low Zydrine and Megacyte frequently drop to 50% below peak, and ore value frequently drops to 40% below peak for months at a time. At the low point this year, a max-skilled Hulk would be pulling about 35M/hr off of Arkonor, minus time spent hauling, which is kind of mediocre, especially considering that it involves several months of training that are utterly useless for anything else.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.09.01 05:11:00 - [27] Edited by: Mahke on 01/09/2009 05:14:09 The best solution I've ever seen to the moongold bottleneck, mining unprofitably, AND 0.0/hisec balance (by seriously increasing the value of access to high-value ore while only effecting the tiny minority of players with serious moongold access negatively) I've seen. This is a simple and elegant solution to a lot of EVE's current economic problems and imbalances. Well thought out, kudos to you OP. Although frankly I have no clue if the numbers are right; I don't do either mining or t2 production.
CommanderData211	Posted - 2009.09.01 05:45:00 - [28] I think CCP should handle the numbers but this sounds like a sweet idea. I like the idea of forcing it to be compressed. This might push me over the edge for getting a Rorqual.
AtheistOfDoom The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.01 06:23:00 - [29] This sounds fun and interesting. Pew Pew Lazorz!!!


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