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Vel Kyri	Posted - 2004.10.18 19:27:00 - [61] You know, i read this and just have to laugh... When the interceptors came out - many people were saying how useless the amarr interceptors were - they didn't have cruise missiles etc... and even worse, the crusader only had 2 mid slots the horror!! but still, i got that crusader the moment it came out - why? small, fast and lots o guns. About 2-3 months later some other people started using crusaders as well.. now they are considered one of the "better" interceptors.. When i first got my crusader they were the cheapest intis at about 5 mill isk... lol I guess it'll be the same with the assult frigs - once they start becoming common and we have lots of people trying them in different ways - then we'll see what they are worth. -----
Vel Kyri	Posted - 2004.10.18 19:27:00 - [62] You know, i read this and just have to laugh... When the interceptors came out - many people were saying how useless the amarr interceptors were - they didn't have cruise missiles etc... and even worse, the crusader only had 2 mid slots the horror!! but still, i got that crusader the moment it came out - why? small, fast and lots o guns. About 2-3 months later some other people started using crusaders as well.. now they are considered one of the "better" interceptors.. When i first got my crusader they were the cheapest intis at about 5 mill isk... lol I guess it'll be the same with the assult frigs - once they start becoming common and we have lots of people trying them in different ways - then we'll see what they are worth. -----
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.10.18 20:54:00 - [63] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 18/10/2004 21:02:54 Vel, one thing. Meridius and myself are among the chief reasons why Crusaders are as popular as they are today. We saw potential in a ship few dared to use due to lasers sucking at the time. We figured out the perfect setup that no-one else stumbled upon yet. We made the ships work. We published our setups so everyone could fly a Crusader that kicked ass. We will not, ever, make Retributions work in their current state. There is no potential. One medslot renders the ship beyond salvation. Re-hash the same tired justifications about range bonuses and armortanking all you want, the bitter truth is that Retributions are not PVP viable and you will not see them flown by people who have something better and less risky to fly. Being the only Assault Frigate with less firepower than its Interceptor counterpart is the final nail in the coffin.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.10.18 20:54:00 - [64] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 18/10/2004 21:02:54 Vel, one thing. Meridius and myself are among the chief reasons why Crusaders are as popular as they are today. We saw potential in a ship few dared to use due to lasers sucking at the time. We figured out the perfect setup that no-one else stumbled upon yet. We made the ships work. We published our setups so everyone could fly a Crusader that kicked ass. We will not, ever, make Retributions work in their current state. There is no potential. One medslot renders the ship beyond salvation. Re-hash the same tired justifications about range bonuses and armortanking all you want, the bitter truth is that Retributions are not PVP viable and you will not see them flown by people who have something better and less risky to fly. Being the only Assault Frigate with less firepower than its Interceptor counterpart is the final nail in the coffin.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.18 21:19:00 - [65] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 18/10/2004 21:02:54 Vel, one thing. Meridius and myself are among the chief reasons why Crusaders are as popular as they are today. We saw potential in a ship few dared to use due to lasers sucking at the time. We figured out the perfect setup that no-one else stumbled upon yet. We made the ships work. We published our setups so everyone could fly a Crusader that kicked ass. We will not, ever, make Retributions work in their current state. There is no potential. One medslot renders the ship beyond salvation. Re-hash the same tired justifications about range bonuses and armortanking all you want, the bitter truth is that Retributions are not PVP viable and you will not see them flown by people who have something better and less risky to fly. Being the only Assault Frigate with less firepower than its Interceptor counterpart is the final nail in the coffin. Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.18 21:19:00 - [66] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 18/10/2004 21:02:54 Vel, one thing. Meridius and myself are among the chief reasons why Crusaders are as popular as they are today. We saw potential in a ship few dared to use due to lasers sucking at the time. We figured out the perfect setup that no-one else stumbled upon yet. We made the ships work. We published our setups so everyone could fly a Crusader that kicked ass. We will not, ever, make Retributions work in their current state. There is no potential. One medslot renders the ship beyond salvation. Re-hash the same tired justifications about range bonuses and armortanking all you want, the bitter truth is that Retributions are not PVP viable and you will not see them flown by people who have something better and less risky to fly. Being the only Assault Frigate with less firepower than its Interceptor counterpart is the final nail in the coffin. Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Majin Buu	Posted - 2004.10.18 22:51:00 - [67] you are missing the point though. When intys came out no other ship could do there job. Now assault frigs have come out and they do exactly the same job a cruiser can do, but cost 10 times more to buy.... You fit a cruiser like a rupture or maller with duel mwd and the same guns as an assault frig (maller with med pulse II), or a thorax with blasters and drones and what do you have? a ship that does exactly the same as a assault frig but costs 1/10th of the price, and in most ways out performs the assault frig, especially the amarr ones. BoB KillBoard
Majin Buu	Posted - 2004.10.18 22:51:00 - [68] you are missing the point though. When intys came out no other ship could do there job. Now assault frigs have come out and they do exactly the same job a cruiser can do, but cost 10 times more to buy.... You fit a cruiser like a rupture or maller with duel mwd and the same guns as an assault frig (maller with med pulse II), or a thorax with blasters and drones and what do you have? a ship that does exactly the same as a assault frig but costs 1/10th of the price, and in most ways out performs the assault frig, especially the amarr ones. BoB KillBoard
Gaius Kador	Posted - 2004.10.18 23:01:00 - [69] Bottom line: The Amarr assault frigs have a very limited PvP potential and are outperformed in their role by cheaper variants of cruiser sized vessels. Useless pimp rides best spent in PvE, though I'd use an Omen for agent running over an Amarr assault frig anyday. Like one of my old enemies would love to put it... Gold plated dung ;) ----------------------------------------------
Gaius Kador	Posted - 2004.10.18 23:01:00 - [70] Bottom line: The Amarr assault frigs have a very limited PvP potential and are outperformed in their role by cheaper variants of cruiser sized vessels. Useless pimp rides best spent in PvE, though I'd use an Omen for agent running over an Amarr assault frig anyday. Like one of my old enemies would love to put it... Gold plated dung ;) ----------------------------------------------

Devineflid	Posted - 2004.10.18 23:34:00 - [71] i agree totally that the retribution is gimpeddue to it's mid slot(or lack thereof) but as far as the vengeance goes, it is a lovely ship, chock full of PvP potential. the resistances means it does a great armor tank, so go for that, meaning the mids are free for a web scram and other, not with named med pulse laser ones in my vengeance, i took down a T2 blaster toting taranis and a kestral at the same time and they got me to half armor, the 3 lasers did enough dmg to kill cruisers and the rocket launcher i kept filled with defenders could totally dissarm a raven at ranges of 15km + meaning an easy getaway, i finally lost it due to some good tactics on my enemies behalf, but untill that point managed to get the kessie and taranis dead, and force a crow kessie and rifter to **** off all at the same time. now tell me again these ships are useless? P.S "these ships" not counting the retribution, which still needs a second mid slot, and they all need defenders now, due to small sb's no longer killing torps ============================================== Have you ever wondered who was responsible for the "do not attempt to stop chain with hand or genitals" type notes on things? well it was me, or at le
Devineflid	Posted - 2004.10.18 23:34:00 - [72] i agree totally that the retribution is gimpeddue to it's mid slot(or lack thereof) but as far as the vengeance goes, it is a lovely ship, chock full of PvP potential. the resistances means it does a great armor tank, so go for that, meaning the mids are free for a web scram and other, not with named med pulse laser ones in my vengeance, i took down a T2 blaster toting taranis and a kestral at the same time and they got me to half armor, the 3 lasers did enough dmg to kill cruisers and the rocket launcher i kept filled with defenders could totally dissarm a raven at ranges of 15km + meaning an easy getaway, i finally lost it due to some good tactics on my enemies behalf, but untill that point managed to get the kessie and taranis dead, and force a crow kessie and rifter to **** off all at the same time. now tell me again these ships are useless? P.S "these ships" not counting the retribution, which still needs a second mid slot, and they all need defenders now, due to small sb's no longer killing torps ============================================== Have you ever wondered who was responsible for the "do not attempt to stop chain with hand or genitals" type notes on things? well it was me, or at le
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.10.19 02:37:00 - [73] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 19/10/2004 02:40:41 Quote: Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? I'm not saying all ships have to be tuned to PVP. The carebears need their Ospreys. I'm just asking for them to have at least one application, at least one thing that they're better at than any other ship class. The Retribution fails. It aspires to a supposed PVP role and fails. Its description paints it as a fighting ship, but it can't fight - kinda like the Heron is described as a mining ship, yet it can't mine. People can go ahead and try mining with one mining laser and no drones, and they can go ahead and fight with a decrepid immobile slab of under-gunned **** that can't even pin its targets, but don't try for a moment to make it look like you're gonna be any good at it. edit: p.s. since some people are dolts and can't read too goodly, I am only talking about the Retribution, not other assault frigates.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2004.10.19 02:37:00 - [74] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 19/10/2004 02:40:41 Quote: Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? I'm not saying all ships have to be tuned to PVP. The carebears need their Ospreys. I'm just asking for them to have at least one application, at least one thing that they're better at than any other ship class. The Retribution fails. It aspires to a supposed PVP role and fails. Its description paints it as a fighting ship, but it can't fight - kinda like the Heron is described as a mining ship, yet it can't mine. People can go ahead and try mining with one mining laser and no drones, and they can go ahead and fight with a decrepid immobile slab of under-gunned **** that can't even pin its targets, but don't try for a moment to make it look like you're gonna be any good at it. edit: p.s. since some people are dolts and can't read too goodly, I am only talking about the Retribution, not other assault frigates.
Meridius	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:13:00 - [75] Originally by: Vel Kyri You know, i read this and just have to laugh... When the interceptors came out - many people were saying how useless the amarr interceptors were - they didn't have cruise missiles etc... and even worse, the crusader only had 2 mid slots the horror!! but still, i got that crusader the moment it came out - why? small, fast and lots o guns. About 2-3 months later some other people started using crusaders as well.. now they are considered one of the "better" interceptors.. When i first got my crusader they were the cheapest intis at about 5 mill isk... lol I guess it'll be the same with the assult frigs - once they start becoming common and we have lots of people trying them in different ways - then we'll see what they are worth. The only reason crusaders and other non-missle firing interceptors sucked is that they didn't have the ability to fire cruise missles. They did suck back then. They are good now because crows can't use cruise missles. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Vel Kyri You know, i read this and just have to laugh... When the interceptors came out - many people were saying how useless the amarr interceptors were - they didn't have cruise missiles etc... and even worse, the crusader only had 2 mid slots the horror!! but still, i got that crusader the moment it came out - why? small, fast and lots o guns. About 2-3 months later some other people started using crusaders as well.. now they are considered one of the "better" interceptors.. When i first got my crusader they were the cheapest intis at about 5 mill isk... lol I guess it'll be the same with the assult frigs - once they start becoming common and we have lots of people trying them in different ways - then we'll see what they are worth. The only reason crusaders and other non-missle firing interceptors sucked is that they didn't have the ability to fire cruise missles. They did suck back then. They are good now because crows can't use cruise missles. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? Joshua, where is the logic of making a 40mil isk LVL3 mission capable 0.1+ space npc hunter? You can do the same **** with a 3.5mil insurable cruiser and not have a heart attack if you CTD while scrambled. ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:16:00 - [78] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? Joshua, where is the logic of making a 40mil isk LVL3 mission capable 0.1+ space npc hunter? You can do the same **** with a 3.5mil insurable cruiser and not have a heart attack if you CTD while scrambled. ________________________________________________________
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:53:00 - [79] I find it interesting that the Retribution generally fetches higher prices than the Vengeance. The prices tend to reflect demand and esteem---Crow better than Raptor prices; Taranis over Ares; Enyo over Ishkur. These prices may reflect the view that the Retribution is a better mission ship than the Vengeance, though the latter is the more flexible ship for pvp. One person put its succintly describing the Amarr frigates. The Malediction is a tackler, while the Crusader is a killer. The same can be said of the Retribution and the Vengeance. The Vengeance is the tackler, the Retribution is a killer. The assaults were meant for PvP but its kind of a cooperative, teamwork dependent form of PvP. If you're a one on one soloist pvper, find another ship than the Retribution. As for whether you should just use a 4 million cruiser rather than a 40 million assault, the assault still have much greater survivability. It still has the sig radius, the speed, and the armor hardening advantage. I think assaults are a viable ship once the outrageous prices come down. Shiva may have more changes to come with regards to tech 2 component pricing; level 4 missions could drop a truckload. It would be interesting to see changes in Assaults pricing. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Slithereen	Posted - 2004.10.19 04:53:00 - [80] I find it interesting that the Retribution generally fetches higher prices than the Vengeance. The prices tend to reflect demand and esteem---Crow better than Raptor prices; Taranis over Ares; Enyo over Ishkur. These prices may reflect the view that the Retribution is a better mission ship than the Vengeance, though the latter is the more flexible ship for pvp. One person put its succintly describing the Amarr frigates. The Malediction is a tackler, while the Crusader is a killer. The same can be said of the Retribution and the Vengeance. The Vengeance is the tackler, the Retribution is a killer. The assaults were meant for PvP but its kind of a cooperative, teamwork dependent form of PvP. If you're a one on one soloist pvper, find another ship than the Retribution. As for whether you should just use a 4 million cruiser rather than a 40 million assault, the assault still have much greater survivability. It still has the sig radius, the speed, and the armor hardening advantage. I think assaults are a viable ship once the outrageous prices come down. Shiva may have more changes to come with regards to tech 2 component pricing; level 4 missions could drop a truckload. It would be interesting to see changes in Assaults pricing. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.

Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.19 07:26:00 - [81] Slithereen always talks a lot of sense. I think that answered Meridius and Istvaan quite nicely. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.19 07:26:00 - [82] Slithereen always talks a lot of sense. I think that answered Meridius and Istvaan quite nicely. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.10.19 07:51:00 - [83] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Joshua Calvert Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? Joshua, where is the logic of making a 40mil isk LVL3 mission capable 0.1+ space npc hunter? You can do the same **** with a 3.5mil insurable cruiser and not have a heart attack if you CTD while scrambled. Fly one? cause it can do a helluvalot more then 0.1+ and lvl 3 missions, battleships take a bit of time to take down when doing it solo. But in a two team, you can do some sick things. And personally I think zooming around in your assault friggie, right in and among a spawn that would decimate a battleship if it was that close, and decimating the spawn left and right, it's a rush. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.10.19 07:51:00 - [84] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Joshua Calvert Who says all ships have to be tuned to PvP, Istvaan? Joshua, where is the logic of making a 40mil isk LVL3 mission capable 0.1+ space npc hunter? You can do the same **** with a 3.5mil insurable cruiser and not have a heart attack if you CTD while scrambled. Fly one? cause it can do a helluvalot more then 0.1+ and lvl 3 missions, battleships take a bit of time to take down when doing it solo. But in a two team, you can do some sick things. And personally I think zooming around in your assault friggie, right in and among a spawn that would decimate a battleship if it was that close, and decimating the spawn left and right, it's a rush. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.10.19 09:10:00 - [85] The Retribution is to all intents and purposes a waste of time. There is nothing it can do that either a Maller or a Crusader can't do more effectively. Its slow, its damage output isn't much more than a Crusader, it's slot configuration makes it nothing but a gunboat, it's better resists are negated by the fact its pretty easy to hit due to low speeds, its tiny CPU makes it very challenging to actually fit a good tanking setup. And yes, I have flown one. I've used Crusaders and Mallers in all sorts of situations and the Retribution offers no advantages over either.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.10.19 09:10:00 - [86] The Retribution is to all intents and purposes a waste of time. There is nothing it can do that either a Maller or a Crusader can't do more effectively. Its slow, its damage output isn't much more than a Crusader, it's slot configuration makes it nothing but a gunboat, it's better resists are negated by the fact its pretty easy to hit due to low speeds, its tiny CPU makes it very challenging to actually fit a good tanking setup. And yes, I have flown one. I've used Crusaders and Mallers in all sorts of situations and the Retribution offers no advantages over either.
Cruz	Posted - 2004.10.19 09:55:00 - [87] Retribution should get a missile launcher slot so it can use defenders. .................
Cruz	Posted - 2004.10.19 09:55:00 - [88] Retribution should get a missile launcher slot so it can use defenders. .................
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.10.19 10:07:00 - [89] Quote: The only reason crusaders and other non-missle firing interceptors sucked is that they didn't have the ability to fire cruise missles. They did suck back then. They are good now because crows can't use cruise missles. Come on Meridius, don't post stuff like this when you know this was never the case. Pilots sucked back then not the ships. Pain is meant to be felt
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.10.19 10:07:00 - [90] Quote: The only reason crusaders and other non-missle firing interceptors sucked is that they didn't have the ability to fire cruise missles. They did suck back then. They are good now because crows can't use cruise missles. Come on Meridius, don't post stuff like this when you know this was never the case. Pilots sucked back then not the ships. Pain is meant to be felt



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