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Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
   |
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, with recent changes and buffs to assault frigs, the prices of the hulls for these has gone through the roof to the point where they're no longer cost effective as ships. Does anyone know if CCP has planned a review of assault frig production costs to bring them down to a reasonable cost:effectiveness ratio? As of right now most assault frigs hover around the 32-35m isk mark for the hull alone - this makes them completely ineffective when compared to the cost effectiveness of T1 frigates - and they don't retain that much more survivability or dps to show for the extreme cost.
For Comparison, a Cyclone that can do 500~ dps and tank 800~ without overheating or links runs about the same price as a fully fitted Enyo. I know there's a large training time discression, but that's even more to the point that they should be re-evaluated in terms of cost effectiveness, as more new players can easily get into the advanced frigates and the progression from a frigate to an t2 assault frigate is much easier than from a frigate to a t2 battlecruiser.
So in summary, why are battlecruisers ending up cheaper to fly than t2 assault frigates? Can this be looked at by CCP? Will it be looked at by CCP?
Thanks in advance. |
Gaymes Jibson
The Jita Interdiction Defence Force
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
This needs to be looked at, how is the average eve player supposed to learn in and play these kinds of ships if they cost this much and die so easily? |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
You'll need some micro economics 101.
The materials needed to produce an AF are exactly the same as they always have been so that doesn't need changing.
Let me ask you this question: Did you buy an AF at the current prices?
If NO then you're helping to bring AF prices down, you won't get to fly them however.
If YES then you think the high price is justified no matter how much you complain about it on the forums. You're also helping to keep the prices at their current rate.
The only input from CCP that you can expect is some nerf/boost to technetium. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1727
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
The current AF prices are a combination of a few factors:
1. The AF buff made them somewhat more popular
2. A giant wave of mining bot banning at around the same time as Hulkageddon starting vastly reduced the mining workforce, which drove up the mineral prices
3. OTEC is increasing Tech prices, which is used in T2 production
So, yes, they are up in price, but it's not just from the AF buff, it's due to vast market manipulation (unintended with the bot banning, intentional with Hulkageddon and OTEC). |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:You'll need some micro economics 101.
The materials needed to produce an AF are exactly the same as they always have been so that doesn't need changing.
Let me ask you this question: Did you buy an AF at the current prices?
If NO then you're helping to bring AF prices down, you won't get to fly them however.
If YES then you think the high price is justified no matter how much you complain about it on the forums. You're also helping to keep the prices at their current rate.
The only input from CCP that you can expect is some nerf/boost to technetium.
If that's true why were Retributions only 12m isk pre-patch and now are 32m post patch? Btw, Datacores are more expensive due to the fw changes, so perhaps invention has adjusted for the massive increase in cost? |
Steam Cat
The Skunkworks
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Because the costs of making t2 items has gone up due to OTEC (presumably). If you pay attention most t2 items have been on an upward slope. Don't like it? Go take some tech moons and produce it cheaper. |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Steam Cat wrote:Because the costs of making t2 items has gone up due to OTEC (presumably) as well as hulkageddon, as well as the current miner bots being borked and banned. If you pay attention most t2 items have been on an upward slope. Don't like it? Go take some tech moons, do some mining and produce it cheaper.
You'll have plenty of buyers.
This is true to a point, but it cannnot account for a nearly 250% increase in prices. For instance, the zealot has been raised in cost by about 8-10% from the last major patch. |
Gaymes Jibson
The Jita Interdiction Defence Force
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Steam Cat wrote:Because the costs of making t2 items has gone up due to OTEC (presumably) as well as hulkageddon, as well as the current miner bots being borked and banned. If you pay attention most t2 items have been on an upward slope. Don't like it? Go take some tech moons, do some mining and produce it cheaper.
You'll have plenty of buyers.
That's not very good advice, I don't think anyone here could stand up to any of the large entities that have their claws sunk in to every scanned tech moon in New Eden. |
Steam Cat
The Skunkworks
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:Steam Cat wrote:Because the costs of making t2 items has gone up due to OTEC (presumably) as well as hulkageddon, as well as the current miner bots being borked and banned. If you pay attention most t2 items have been on an upward slope. Don't like it? Go take some tech moons, do some mining and produce it cheaper.
You'll have plenty of buyers. This is true to a point, but it cannnot account for a nearly 250% increase in prices. For instance, the zealot has been raised in cost by about 8-10% from the last major patch.
Actually you can, demand is high (due to buffs and being naturally good ships) for these rather nice frigates and the prices of materials are up (for the above or other reasons). The market supports these prices by the sales, therefore the price is where it should be. Its not like you need t2 ships to be competitive. In fact most of the time (except t2 guns/ammo/points) you can get a better item at meta 4 (like ecm jammers) for the same or lower prices.
Don't mindlessly buy t2 and the market will respond eventually, its not always the best option. Here have a wiki article. |
Steam Cat
The Skunkworks
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gaymes Jibson wrote:
That's not very good advice, I don't think anyone here could stand up to any of the large entities that have their claws sunk in to every scanned tech moon in New Eden.
Hey, who are we to judge, this person might be the next mittani ready to lead the market to a new lower priced heaven! |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Prices are player driven and depend on supply&demand for both the minerals required as the produced ships themselves. Why should CCP have to look at that? If you feel that the prices are too damn high, why don't you start (moon)mining and producing those ships, more supply means lower prices. Go for it.
Amat victoria curam. |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tbh my main is Womyn Power and the CEO of Love Squad who specialize in flying inexpensive completely t1 fit ships. I'm just saying in the end the cost effectiveness of t2 frigates vs their general effectiveness overall makes them not worth flying - not when you can buy 50~ thrashers for the same cost fully fitted. There needs to be a better middle ground or these ships wont ever be used to their full usefulness considering how insanely overpriced they are. I'm just frustrated I suppose that market manipulation has completely ruined the t2 'fighting' frig market. I just hope this same **** doesn't end up effecting Interceptors and Stealth Bombers - as they're both fairly cost effective and useful in their specific roles. |
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Prices are player driven and depend on supply&demand for both the minerals required as the produced ships themselves. Why should CCP have to look at that? If you feel that the prices are too damn high, why don't you start (moon)mining and producing those ships, more supply means lower prices. Go for it.
Because ships that are the logical stepping stones to the next tier of ships (frigates to cruisers) shouldn't be prohibitively expensive when compared to their overall effectiveness as ships. |
Gaymes Jibson
The Jita Interdiction Defence Force
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Prices are player driven and depend on supply&demand for both the minerals required as the produced ships themselves. Why should CCP have to look at that? If you feel that the prices are too damn high, why don't you start (moon)mining and producing those ships, more supply means lower prices. Go for it.
Why don't you own a tech moon then? |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Since when are AFs logical stepping stones towards a cruiser? they might be a prereq for some bigger ships but that doesn't make them a stepping stone. Actually in eve there ARE no logical stepping stones at all, there is no natural progression in ship types or sizes. All there is is specialisation.
If you feel that you are entitled to Fly AFs at a low cost because they're "a logical step up to other ships" them uhm... yeah. If you want prices to drop then don't buy them or start producing them, there's nothing more to it.
Amat victoria curam. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gaymes Jibson wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Prices are player driven and depend on supply&demand for both the minerals required as the produced ships themselves. Why should CCP have to look at that? If you feel that the prices are too damn high, why don't you start (moon)mining and producing those ships, more supply means lower prices. Go for it. Why don't you own a tech moon then?
Because I'm not whining about the prices, even though I'm no producer or trader.
Sure stuff costs a bit but anyone who has played for years when we had the T2 BPO cartels will tell you that even right now we have it easy. T2 damage controls cost a fortune, Hulks were 500 mil and apart from that people had a lot less isk and easy income. So uhm yeah, you don't see me whining about it.
If you don't understand or agree to the player driven way of how EVE and the market works, and want CCP to step in to make it easier for you then perhaps you're playing the wrong game.
Amat victoria curam. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 16:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is hardly an issue limited to AFs; most of the T2 hulls right now are stupid in terms of cost. CCP needs to rebalance moon mining and they have acknowledged that it is an issue (although not due to cost, just due to the nullsec mechanics), but who knows when that will happen. |
Tankn00blicus
sleep Deprivation INC. LLC
The Skeleton Crew
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 17:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:This is hardly an issue limited to AFs; most of the T2 hulls right now are stupid in terms of cost. CCP needs to rebalance moon mining and they have acknowledged that it is an issue (although not due to cost, just due to the nullsec mechanics), but who knows when that will happen. Planet ring mining, coming soon (probably in Valve time). |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
104
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 18:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mai Amarr Waifu wrote:Steam Cat wrote:Because the costs of making t2 items has gone up due to OTEC (presumably) as well as hulkageddon, as well as the current miner bots being borked and banned. If you pay attention most t2 items have been on an upward slope. Don't like it? Go take some tech moons, do some mining and produce it cheaper.
You'll have plenty of buyers. This is true to a point, but it cannnot account for a nearly 250% increase in prices. For instance, the zealot has been raised in cost by about 8-10% from the last major patch.
If you're really interested, you should start by breaking down the ships in their cost to produce (including invention) and compared this cost to what is was some time ago. Ideally you'ld do this for all T2 frigs and some similar T2 and T1 ships to get a base to compare to. At this point you can apply some statistics to see wether or nether AF prices are an outlier atm or not.
The thing is, if you understand what I just typed, you'll also understand why they're expensive atm anyways so there's no point in doing this.
If you don't fly an AF worth flying, then don't. Simple as that. Tech nerf is incoming (one day) |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
537
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 21:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:This is hardly an issue limited to AFs; most of the T2 hulls right now are stupid in terms of cost. CCP needs to rebalance moon mining and they have acknowledged that it is an issue (although not due to cost, just due to the nullsec mechanics), but who knows when that will happen.
Prices are what they are because people are consistently buying the ships at those prices. If nobody found the prices reasonable, nobody would buy them and manufacturers would have to lower their prices. But they sell, so clearly many people find them cost-effective. If you don't, fine, don't fly them. But don't complain to CCP to change game mechanics to make things cheaper for you. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 22:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you don't like T2 ship prices then remember: you can always buy Faction!
Support your independant faction ship BPC suppliers today!
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 09:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote: Tech nerf is incoming (one day)
they tried already with the t2 bp realignment of moon goo.....didn't work lol. Went from one bottleneck to another.
But to op....welcome to eve markets. the same bp you are whining about is the same bp that made these cheap as chips months ago. Nothing to fix here except human greed (and well goons has to make the isk to pay out all those hulkageddon prizes out somehow lol). In the future....about 5-6 months from now....buy before patching of the winter edition. Stock up what you can that is apart of the speculation craze. After patching markets go to crap for a while. Personal use or resell at higher price after patch like everyone is doing now, thats your call.
|
Maeltstome
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 14:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
It has always been the case in eve that 5%-10% performance increase will cost you up to 20times more than the origonal.
Before invention i used to pay 250-300mil for a vagabond and it was 10million for a tech 2 gun, and 25million for an invuln II...
These days everything it's much cheaper and faction is rivaling tech 2 for performance also. I prefer it this way. After invention, for a long time everyone and their sister flew tech 2 - now people consider flying t1 ships instead of defaulting to tech 2.
The only complaint i have is that cruisers move too slowly after the nano nerf. A battle-cruiser/BS should not move at 80% of a cruisers speed. Sticking an MWD on a cruiser and only going 1300-1400 seems outrageous, given that cruisers have absolutely NO advantages over BC's other cost... which is a null point when considering tech 2 prices.
Long story short: AF's will come down in price, but please buff HAC's |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
106
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 14:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
The only complaint i have is that cruisers move too slowly after the nano nerf. A battle-cruiser/BS should not move at 80% of a cruisers speed. Sticking an MWD on a cruiser and only going 1300-1400 seems outrageous, given that cruisers have absolutely NO advantages over BC's other cost... which is a null point when considering tech 2 prices.
BC's have similar mass as cruisers unlike dessies vs frigs. Same mass = same speed (roughly) Apart from 1, BS's move a lot slower. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
148
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 15:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
mxzf wrote:The current AF prices are a combination of a few factors:
1. The AF buff made them somewhat more popular
2. A giant wave of mining bot banning at around the same time as Hulkageddon starting vastly reduced the mining workforce, which drove up the mineral prices
3. OTEC is increasing Tech prices, which is used in T2 production
So, yes, they are up in price, but it's not just from the AF buff, it's due to vast market manipulation (unintended with the bot banning, intentional with Hulkageddon and OTEC).
I believe ring mining will lead to the goons liquidating without warning, its their master strategy, deception and greed.
There are still allot of hulls selling below 20M isk, there are also Navy hulls like the hookbill slicer firetail and that other one which I have trouble moving even as a jita sell order.
T1 frigates are also great, some of them are quite capable of holding their own against most T2 frigs in the hands of the right pilot.
I will have to join the "there's a problem" if ceptor prices start going past 20M isk, those ships newbies use to learn how to PvP in nulsec quite often.
Manipulation on these items may need a few more months after the market recovered and sale become abundant once again. |
Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 17:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Well, most T2 ships are not even worth training anymore. Navy faction and pirate faction have seen to that. The Thrasher like always has been better than more assault frigates. Same with the Coercer, Cormorant and Catalyst to a lesser extent. I prefer the stabber fleet over many tech 2 cruisers. Recons and logistics are exceptions. Interdics have thier niche.
For example. This character is only training for t1, navy and pirate faction ships. Sealth bombers, assault frigates and recons are exceptions. I would put logi in there but this character is for solo ONLY. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Hail_Goddess My choice with her is either gal and min or min and amarr.
I have 2 other characters that are able to fly everything up to marauders. I've stopped flying most t2 ships with them a v long time ago. Bar random setups ive been told to try out or thoery crafted.
Assault frigates are worth it for thier cost and are able to engage battlecruisers effectively. Intereceptors aren't and if thier prices rise even more. Then that's a serious issue. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 03:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Summary of OP: "It is wrong that something popular has increased in price"
You even answered your own question .... but apparently missed it totally. As you said T1 frigs got buffed -> Get more popular because people want to save cost -> less demand for AFs -> Lower price for AFs -> You get your toy cheaper. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
438
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 04:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/11393/-4/5/0/5
You'll have to tack invention costs on these as well, which will likely be around 3 or 4 million.
Which leaves about a 10% profit margin.
Of course, these numbers are flexible if you start throwing in decryptors and so on. Like with all invention, you'll have to play with the numbers.
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
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