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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 12:38:00 -
[1]
Someone has probably already sugested this, and it's a reasonably hot topic, but here's my take on it.
People want a place for small corps to "control", and other people want to make sure that WH space stays WH space, and is free for all with no sov/outposts/etc.
Middle ground - add more 0.0 space, but make it so there are no jump gates linking them to existing space, and the only way to access them initially is through w-space links. I think it's probably worth allowing jump bridges to be built inside these systems. In lore, jump gates have certain restrictions preventing their use in 1 in 3 systems - make those the unlinked ones.
As for how to make this space available to smaller groups and not restrict it to large alliances, or even if it SHOULD be available to smaller groups, I haven't got any good sugestions at this point in time.
TL;DR: K-Space - normal, linked by existing gate network. W-Space - wormhole, uncontrollable, unknown, and unlinked U-Space - normal, not linked to existing gate network, linkable by wh, and possibly cyno/bridge?
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Verlokiraptor
All Around Research Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:07:00 -
[2]
I would kinda like to see a separate galaxy that was similar to k-space, whether it has hisec or not (although why concord would want to go there is questionable). It would definitely make more sense to start off entirely void of stations/jump gates though. Of course your idea is more about unconnected systems within the current galaxy which would be pretty interesting too.
My main question is uh...
How do small corps control this where alliances don't? O.o If you grab a system near an alliances territory it's only a matter of time before they get a scout there and cyno in a fleet to remove the threat, or one of their enemies finds you and decides it would make a nice staging ground. Either way, the little guy is screwed. If it has a value to a small corp it has a value to bigger ones too.
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Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:14:00 -
[3]
Small corps should form alliances and take sov in 0.0 if they want stuff to control.
And, as you said, there is no way to keep out the "big boys". A solution to this would most likely have to be an artificial barriere for bigger enteties, which is against what EVE stands for (sandbox).
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:24:00 -
[4]
EVE is a sandbox. To me, in my take on EVE, this means it is player driven with substantially realistic pushes and pulls that people are known to respond to historically. I like the idea of colonization of ws and do live there. Normally geopolitics is driven by widely varying terrain. Something Eve currently lacks. There are no vast seas, mountain ranges, deserts, and so on that make it difficult for large powers to stop the development of other powers... except in ws. We need this and I personally hope the capacities of ws ops are expanded to further it. CCP and the players also need it to avoid the coming population crunch and being dominated by only a few 'superpowers'.
The development of such powers is not always positive for existing powers. So be it. No one should be immune to changing fortunes and to continue on without providing opportunity to others simply to maintain a status quo is and always has been a death nell to organizations from nations to microbes.
I say let ws develop into such a 'terrain' driven and populated place where power can grow with sufficient work and good tactics. This is easily possible and likely the best thing for the game. There will likely be 'lonely' places for those so inclined for years as they open up new racial areas anyway. I don't see any problem with going much farther in ws 'colonozation' than anyone has so far suggested.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Nika Dekaia Small corps should form alliances and take sov in 0.0 if they want stuff to control.
_____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Emisune Someone has probably already sugested this, and it's a reasonably hot topic, but here's my take on it.
People want a place for small corps to "control", and other people want to make sure that WH space stays WH space, and is free for all with no sov/outposts/etc.
Middle ground - add more 0.0 space, but make it so there are no jump gates linking them to existing space, and the only way to access them initially is through w-space links. I think it's probably worth allowing jump bridges to be built inside these systems. In lore, jump gates have certain restrictions preventing their use in 1 in 3 systems - make those the unlinked ones.
As for how to make this space available to smaller groups and not restrict it to large alliances, or even if it SHOULD be available to smaller groups, I haven't got any good sugestions at this point in time.
TL;DR: K-Space - normal, linked by existing gate network. W-Space - wormhole, uncontrollable, unknown, and unlinked U-Space - normal, not linked to existing gate network, linkable by wh, and possibly cyno/bridge?
^
i dont think there should be too many different 'spaces'. would just get confusing.
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:32:00 -
[7]
The large alliances and their supporters consistantly attack any idea or person who promotes the rise of ws. This is to be expected since it is a threat that is valid, they have no substantial arguments or capacities to stop it, and it will generally make life better for many... but likely not them.
As people continue to populate ws for long periods and their numbers grow this will lead to a lot of friction but I believe the die is cast. It is only a matter of time.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ztagger Lee The large alliances and their supporters consistantly attack any idea or person who promotes the rise of ws... but I believe the idea is cast. It is only a matter of time.
1. From what I have noticed, it is merely a few pubbies who want to feel special that are begging for sov in wh space. The people that are really utilizing the resources and making good use of wh space really don't care.
2. Most opposers to this ridiculous idea are w-space dwellers that don't want w-space to be ruined. Sov space holders couldn't care less...Trust me, I don't think they care if you have your own little outpost to play with in w-space.
3. Just because you spam in every thread about this that it is a good idea does not mean "its only a matter of time." _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Emisune on 03/09/2009 13:44:01 If the only way in to a system initially is via wormhole space BUT it can support jump bridges it does set a very difficult task for any opposition to take it, since the enemy shows up in local chat, and the defender already has most likely a jump bridge to bring more reinforcements. Yes, a cyno could be lit, but the system will be unknown untill an explorer gets to it through w-space, it could be outside of cyno range on the other side of the galaxy for all they know. The wormhole will close eventually, and the enemy scout has to get an attacking fleet in before it closes or within cyno range before he gets hunted down by defenders. *WOOPS: BIG DUH - Cyno Jammers* So, unless a CovOps/BlackOps fleet could take out the jammer, a wormhole would be the ONLY enterance they could access.
Other ways of making U-systems more defendable could be restricting their wormhole entries/exits to be Class 4 and under so capitals couldn't take wormholes into them. (Maybe systems that can't host jump bridges are also less capable of forming wormhole links to C4+/K)
Anyway, whether they should be "available" to smaller groups wasn't really the objective, it was to create a new unlinked group of systems that players could colonize with their own jump networks etc. The idea of a space that is basically 0.0, but where players have to build and maintain their own jump networks to get things in or out seems fun.
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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Emisune Someone has probably already sugested this, and it's a reasonably hot topic, but here's my take on it.
People want a place for small corps to "control", and other people want to make sure that WH space stays WH space, and is free for all with no sov/outposts/etc.
Middle ground - add more 0.0 space, but make it so there are no jump gates linking them to existing space, and the only way to access them initially is through w-space links. I think it's probably worth allowing jump bridges to be built inside these systems. In lore, jump gates have certain restrictions preventing their use in 1 in 3 systems - make those the unlinked ones.
As for how to make this space available to smaller groups and not restrict it to large alliances, or even if it SHOULD be available to smaller groups, I haven't got any good sugestions at this point in time.
TL;DR: K-Space - normal, linked by existing gate network. W-Space - wormhole, uncontrollable, unknown, and unlinked U-Space - normal, not linked to existing gate network, linkable by wh, and possibly cyno/bridge?
^
i dont think there should be too many different 'spaces'. would just get confusing.
Fair enough, I just thought U-space would be a nice tagline. It's just as easy to think of it as K-space since effectively that'll be what it is - with the minor difference of not being linked to existing K-space except by player-built systems.
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:43:00 -
[11]
You completely misunderstood me if you think I was proposing sov in ws. I'm completely against it. What I want to see is for sov not to matter in ws. At all. It is the development of ws that is attacked. As long as sov is in ws as is they have nothing to worry about.
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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ztagger Lee You completely misunderstood me if you think I was proposing sov in ws. I'm completely against it. What I want to see is for sov not to matter in ws. At all. It is the development of ws that is attacked. As long as sov is in ws as is they have nothing to worry about.
Sorry, I think you missed the title of this topic. The part where it says "NOT Wormhole Colonisation". I was deliberately trying to avoid this debate, please take it to somewhere else.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: XXSketchxx on 03/09/2009 13:49:11
Originally by: Ztagger Lee You completely misunderstood me if you think I was proposing sov in ws. I'm completely against it. What I want to see is for sov not to matter in ws. At all. It is the development of ws that is attacked. As long as sov is in ws as is they have nothing to worry about.
(my apologies to the op, but I need to address this)
Sov or not, outposts and minable moons are just silly.
There is nothing wrong with using a POS for all your purposes and you can already make plenty of isk killing sleepers.
The purpose of moons is to 1) provide the mats for T2 and 2) provide the 0.0 alliance that work hard to protect their assets/space with isk to fund cap fleets to continue to protect their space. _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
Need a Boost?
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 13:52:00 -
[14]
Like I said... that is the 'understandable' position of null alliances... particularly large ones... not the view of those who live there. We want to grow... you don't want us to. It is as simple as that. This is a fight with politics and development issues instead of ships at this point. A guerilla war. The last thing you want is us capable of a real shooting war with you. Quite understandable actually.
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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:03:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Emisune on 03/09/2009 14:03:52 I'm clearly from a big alliance trying to opress w-space. You can tell this by me being in an NPC corp. Please stop ignoring the TOPIC and take this coversation to somewhere appropriate.
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:10:00 -
[16]
Sry Em but what was said does, to me, relate. On a much closer to topic note, though, I do believe that the appropriate 'middle ground' is a properly developed wormhole space. I think no jumping in ws is a good idea and should stand. I think that the new racial areas are more than enough for years to come for expansion purposes. I also believe that the antipathy towards that being developed is politically motivated with next to no substantial mechanics or development reasons that are valid.
I was not trying to be off topic. The topic is valid and you gave leeway for 'other ideas'... which I have. My apologies if I was errant in that regard.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Emisune Someone has probably already sugested this, and it's a reasonably hot topic, but here's my take on it.
People want a place for small corps to "control", and other people want to make sure that WH space stays WH space, and is free for all with no sov/outposts/etc.
Middle ground - add more 0.0 space, but make it so there are no jump gates linking them to existing space, and the only way to access them initially is through w-space links. I think it's probably worth allowing jump bridges to be built inside these systems. In lore, jump gates have certain restrictions preventing their use in 1 in 3 systems - make those the unlinked ones.
As for how to make this space available to smaller groups and not restrict it to large alliances, or even if it SHOULD be available to smaller groups, I haven't got any good sugestions at this point in time.
TL;DR: K-Space - normal, linked by existing gate network. W-Space - wormhole, uncontrollable, unknown, and unlinked U-Space - normal, not linked to existing gate network, linkable by wh, and possibly cyno/bridge?
What?
0.0 system that acts as normal explored sapce? Even if no one has been there before? Makes no sense.
Just add more 0.0 space imo, tho that would be gobbled up quick enough by the current alliances. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |

XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ztagger Lee We want to grow... you don't want us to. It is as simple as that. This is a fight with politics and development issues instead of ships at this point. A guerilla war. The last thing you want is us capable of a real shooting war with you. Quite understandable actually.
Im sorry but who are you talking to? I live in a wormhole .
Want to grow? Make some friends. Go to low/npc null sec. Save some money. Make some deals. Kiss some ass. Politics. Welcome to 0.0 sov world. Guerilla warfare? Talk to the alliances/corps that already are doing this... _____________________________________________
-Sketch, Certified Pharmacist
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari Black Thorne Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:21:00 -
[19]
I kinda like the idea, but nonetheless, with future introduction of new sovereignty system and world shaping through dust etc... there won't be any more additions in this area (like the proposed systems in this thread) for at least 1-2 years.
Think about your suggestion, try to develop further details to suggest, consider consequences etc. And then come back in a year and propose it again ^^
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Ztagger Lee
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Posted - 2009.09.03 14:24:00 -
[20]
Agreed Sidus. Most suggestions here are probably untenable or too complicated. The best solution is a ws dedicated outpost that must be installed and supported by residents with attendant costs/advantages/disadvantages in a balanced way. Such a station would be required to affect a wh state. This would allow the 'linking' of ws systems efficiently and with little or no real development work beyond what exists while solving many problems.
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Emisune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.03 15:02:00 -
[21]
Despite the minor derailment, here's some more development -
These systems would be existing K-space (lore-wise) that was up till now uninhabited because they were unsuitable for jump gate construction: "Due to the complex nature of their construction and the physics that they are based upon, in the official lore of the game, a jump gate must be placed between two stars of a star system with at least two stars - this makes "approximately one in every three" star systems unsuitable."
They would initially only be accessible by wormhole links. These systems would be less likely to have wormholes link to them (especially larger wormholes, i.e. no capital-class mass allowances) also because of the nature of single-star starsystems. They could exist in and around existing K-space, in effect creating bridges between existing K-space (player-controlled trade routes? public? - later).
Sov would be an issue, because they may not be part of a constellation, or the constellation nearest them in original K-space may be hostile. That I need to think on more.
Advantages: - Significantly increased defensive capabilities compared to existing 0.0 systems. To hostile forces, only initially accessible by wormhole space and with specific limitations on allowable mass. Infiltrators would be detectable due to local functioning as normal, giving defenders warning allowing them to hunt down the scout. Hostile forces wouldn't know where the system was located untill they arrived - they can light a cyno beacon (if cyno isn't jammed) or a covert cyno beacon, but it's no use to them unless their assault force is in jump range. If the system turns out to be on the other side of the galaxy, then their scout is going to have to be very creative to keep the defenders busy long enough to bring in the cavalry. (Very creative like logging off? Well, I'll have to think of something to make it harder) - Sov. How/If this should work, I'm still working on, as most likely a single group wouldn't manage to hunt down an entire unlinked constellation to call their own, and whether it should interact with original K constellations etc. - Player-controlled jump network. As it is now, nobody's going to let you "borrow" their jump bridge are they? What if there was a system in place to allow people to pay a toll to use a player-controlled jump network? Shortcuts avoiding lowsec hotspots or hostile null could be incredibly valuable, especially if they make trips to trade hubs safer/quicker. My initial idea was to have a set fee for use, but that is too easily exploited by agressors, so maybe a "gate pass" could be purchased on an individually-approved basis.
Disadvantages: - You find yourself in a system in the middle of enemy normal K-space. You need to either jump bridge or cyno to get in and out reliably. Good luck with the wormholes. - There are strict mass and time limits on the entry to one of these systems, so once found you need to determine it's location relative to K-space (to set up a cyno) or move your entire setup through the wormhole - wormholes are much rarer and more limited in these spaces, so you aren't guarnteed a static wormhole or even that there will be another wormhole in the system at any time. - These systems are uninhabited. That would mean no rats, no agents, no existing stations. The only possibility of NPC interaction I could think of is sleeper incursions. That could be considered an advantage too, especially for industrialists.
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Aethrwolf
Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.09.04 04:39:00 -
[22]
interesting idea, though I doubt it would happen. IF it was implemented I would prefer that these systems have a theme along the lines of "ghost towns".. remnants of the Sleepers' enemies. Perhaps some ruins and occasional sleeper type drones from said enemies. Absolutely everything is subjective. |

Xandor M
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Posted - 2009.09.04 06:06:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Xandor M on 04/09/2009 06:11:48
Originally by: Verlokiraptor I would kinda like to see a separate galaxy that was similar to k-space, whether it has hisec or not (although why concord would want to go there is questionable).
What if we eventually got a link back to the milky way? the milky way could be an area with significantly more high sec and where there are fewer resources due to constant harvesting. OR it could be an almost completely low/null sec area where there are more riches to discover due to the people that lived there in the time contact was lost whipping eachother out.
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ServantOfMask
Minmatar Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.04 08:56:00 -
[24]
it's pretty simple actually(in thought)
make it impossible for any one alliance to hold more than one region, unless they truly have thousands of players willing to hold it. not a few dozen logisticians and their several dozen alts + 4850 paeons.
Look at fountain on the old sov map, SoT and PL share it almost equally along with a few renters. then look at the pretty, big splotches of one single color to the south, south west, and north. there is something wrong with that...
i can see an alliance effectively holding one region but 3...4? unfortunately i am hazy on how actually to change the sov system to make it a headache to hold THAT much space without a veritable army at work keeping it up daily. however dominion may bring us a change that will enable small(er) entities to carve out some space of their own.
one possible solution would be new 0.0 regions above and below the plane we have today, unconnected to old 0.0, outside of cyno range of all old 0.0. Adding lots more hisec to - 0.0 routes, as well as tons more inter region gates. the harder it is to hold one region the less space people will try to take. that only works if there are no easy choke points to concentrate on of course. I would love to see corps duking it out over single entry constellations or just a whole lot more, smaller blobs of color on the sov maps.
there shouldn't be a need for your suggestion, alas there is.
/dream "Misina Arlath
GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls." |

Cardiana
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cardiana on 04/09/2009 09:16:21 i would like to be able to jump to unknown 0.0 systems that dont have stargates and setup camp there with a small corp. a good middle ground this could be between the already existing choices. introduce with that maybe explorer ship type science vessels?
yeah you could make sisters of eve science vessels and introduce it all together in a new expansion.
just thinking of all the unexplored 0.0 systems-the black nothingness on the map didnt you ask yourself for even once what could be there? i want to explore! and be a scientist on frontiers.
other then that yeah i hope sov will be changed for the better so that small entities can carve out space for them aswell. how this will be brought about tho. i cant think of anything right now.
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:22:00 -
[26]
I would support this only if there always is an existing wh leading to highsec in the 0.0-"island". This way invaders have a chance to get in with enough numbers to kick the other side out.
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ollobrains
5th Front enterprises CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.04 10:58:00 -
[27]
ccp has these options ( dev blogs comments) 3 acnient races 3x 2500 more solar systems 7500 in total
My intial idea when wormholes were being discussed was to have pirate factions inside wormhole space - this idea extends it by creating wh accessible only 00 space. But u would simply get ratters and pvpers setting up in all systems Unless they connected with existing wormhole space or were a new class of wormhole system where pirate factions had made their way into wormhole space without ancient races but this would have to be systems u cant setup moons or planets with no moons but new sov system changes things to so really defeats purpose unless u spawn pirate faction sites within womrhole existing space would be an opiton as well perhaps 1 in 5 esp if pirate factions are in there exploring as well
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TexasWARlord
North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2009.09.10 10:27:00 -
[28]
Personaly I agree there is not enough null space that is accessable for the average small alliance to grow and expand.
I think that Worm Space is the answer.
Example: A quarterly assesment could be made of Worm Space.
If it has been occupied for 90 days with fueled POS's and worked regulary (Anoms and Cosmics completed) give SOV claiming rights to the system...
Drop it into know space with a few limitations as well as building options.
Phase One:
J000101 after being settled and worked for 90 days now gets the option to claim SOV with their towers, if they exersize this option the clock starts ticking, on the next quarter they gain Sovereignty 1 : Territory
Limitation: The space is still only accessable by way of worm holes, even tho they are now on the map and have been dropped to known space the only way to get there is through worm exploration and travel.
Building Option: If the now sovereign alliance chooses to become part of the greater community the must build a stargate, much like outposts requiring certain skills and materials gathered from worm and known space.
Phase Two:
Once a stargate has been anchored for another quarter Sovereignty 2 : Protectorate is granted and the stargate is activated and connected to a random low sec entry/exit point in the region where the executor corp has the highest factional standing.
Limitation: Gate travel due to power limitations to this new system is limited by mass like a wormhole only allowing Cruiser Sized ships through the gate and only a towered Cyno Generator will have enough power to bring in capitals.
Building Option: If the now sovereign alliance or conquering alliance (based on current constellation control rules) decides to take the final step they must build a deep space outpost that will be capable of powering the new gate and opening it to all ships as we currently have set up.
Once the outpost has been built and fired up the gate will now become fully functional and if the outpost has not been conquered for another quarter it gains Sovereignty 3 : Province and becomes a fully intergrated system in eve.
This would give the smaller alliances a opportunity to gain space if they decide to take that step and afford them time to protect themselves as well as grow... They also assume the risk of other alliances finding their homeland and attempting to take it away.
There are many many possibilities in this senario but the basic idea would be to add new space as the Alliance feels it is ready. It takes time, it takes work and involves risk...
But in my opinion this is what eve is all about... Hard work, risk and reward and this way its not up to CCP to decide if the universe is too small, instead its up to the smaller alliances to make the universe grow as they feel it is needed.
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SlipperedGuppy
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Posted - 2009.09.10 20:17:00 -
[29]
Just my thought, this is an example of EVE's difficulty curve. Semi skilled corps, or corps without alliances usually too, aren't able to compete for space near lowsec because the big alliances want to secure bridges to Empire space. As a result, there's not really a "testing" ground where empire corps can really have any chance of making a foray out into 0.0 to set up a place to live.
My thought of a potential solution? Set up "lateral" 0.0 Space. As in, instead of making the value progression go from low to high in this "newly discovered space", have a part of space that does not connect to deeper and more valuable systems. In theory bigger alliances would be less interested in controlling these areas because they have no value as a highway, and the mineral/ratting values would also be far less valuable.
In theory. Not sure if it would work in practice since alliances might just take control for the sake of controlling more stuff.
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