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Nicski
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:05:00 -
[1]
I am a 29 day old noob at the time of writing but am I alone in thinking that the Learning Skills is only killing the game for Noobs like me? By this I mean the most efficient skill training path requires that we initially train these skills ideally up to level 5 for all 9 skills and this will take a minimum of around 60 days. However, that requires a shed load of ISK to purchase the level 5 implants, no real noob can afford them, the best that we can hope for is level 3 implants in the short term, but that in turn requires we deviate from the most efficient training path in order to gain enough skills to run at least level 2 missions to fund those level 3 implants and learning skill training books. So I think it is more realistic to say around 90 days is required.
What is 'Epic Fail' about that, is that after going through that pain, all you get is the abilty to start learning efficiently. With another skill for example you get a benifit - the ability to actually do something in the game you couldn't before, or do something better. The net result is that to follow the most efficient skill training path a noob should ideally create his account, run level 1 and 2 missions for a week and then go back to playing WOW for the next 3 months. How ridiculous is that?
Now if it isn't feasible for a noob to play for the first 3 months, then logically it would make sense for CCP to sell new accounts with all the learning skills already trained. Now before anyone starts slating that idea, consider this - I started this game 29 days ago with 2 other friends, both have now dropped the game - they intended to only leave temperarily while their learning training completed, but they have got into AON or some other MMO game and have cancelled their EVE subscription.
Now I am sure some people will say that you don't have to leave for those 3 months, there is plenty to do in EVE in those months. Well I have gone down that path and I have to say that after 29 days it is wearing thin. I am running level 3 missions now in a Drake (further deviating from the ideal training path) and the same couple of dozen or so missions keep repeating themselves over and over. PvP - I wouldn't dare at this time - I joined a training corp briefly and they advised don't even attempt it below 8M SP, I was only at 1.9M when we got war decced, spent one evening hugging my corp mates in my rocket armed Kestrel outside a moon in our home system and occassionally trying to set up a gate camp and then run away when the only enemy players that came near were 3 year old veterans in Black Ops and HAC ships. Then I left the corp so that I could at least earn ISK running those boring missions without fear of being ganked by those "War Targets".
Of course I could try, trading, mining, manufacturing or a whole host of other things right? Wrong! I'm still waiting for those f***ing learning skills to complete, can't do squat until then without shooting myself in the foot.
I desperately want to hang on until I have got enough skills to do PvP, get into 0.0 space and large fleet actions, but I have to say that at this moment in time: This game sucks for Noobs.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:09:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Heroldyn on 04/09/2009 11:12:10
Edited by: Heroldyn on 04/09/2009 11:11:41
it is your decision wether you train them right off the bat, train them later, or never train them.
if you plan to play eve longer than a few years, training them early will be worth it. tho early doesnt mean within the first days or even weeks. but again. its your decision.
eve is full of decisions like that.
edit:
concerning your desperate wish to participate in 0.0 fleet warefare, this is actually possible for a new player in eve unlike in other mmo's even new players can quickly get involved in what would be other game's "endgame".
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:11:00 -
[3]
Actually, training all of them to 5 isn't the most efficient path — far from it.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Gaelan Lionhardt
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:12:00 -
[4]
Its like a "survival of the fittest" feature, because honeslty if you dont have the patience needed to learn these skills in the first month or two of playing, this game isnt for you, skill training only gets harder not easier.
Nobody makes you train the learning skills and a smart player would train learning skills between the skills that take only a few hours, taking advantage of the human bodies need to sleep, train the small skills while you play and then set the learning to train while you sleep/work/school... whatever |
Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:13:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Tippia
Actually, training all of them to 5 isn't the most efficient path ù far from it.
weather or not training them to 5 is efficient is a matter of how long someone keeps subscribed to the game.
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:14:00 -
[6]
You know, you can "waste" a few non optimally gained SP by training up for a frig and suitabel modules before training the learning skills to 4. That way you can do more than just sit docked the first two months.
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Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:15:00 -
[7]
No one is telling you to stay, you can leave when ever you want if you dont like the game, EVERYBODY had to put up with the learning skills so
STOP WHINING !!!!!
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CCP Navigator
C C P
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:16:00 -
[8]
Moved from General Discussion.
Navigator
Senior Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:16:00 -
[9]
I'll admit, that I didn't bother reading all that, only read the topic TBH, but since this topic is as old as EVE itself. I'll still make a few points, that propably relate to your post.
- CCP has admitted that adding learning skills wasn't the best idea they had.
- People have them, so you can't just remove or give them free for all without treating some unfairly.
- Have you considered playing the game without min/maxing. Training some learning skills is a very efficient way to play, but not a must. It took me 9 months to train them to 5/4 level and that is where I left them. I have no regrets.
- They are a must only in the long term. Those skillpoints in learning won't help you one bit to play the game and it is an option to "waste" training time in the short term for a bigger pay in the long term. Choices are a good thing to have.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Tippia
Actually, training all of them to 5 isn't the most efficient path — far from it.
weather or not training them to 5 is efficient is a matter of how long someone keeps subscribed to the game.
Not even that, now that we have attribute respeccing.
…and even before, the value was entirely dependent on what skills you were going for and what your base attributes were like. Presence V is the prime example of this — there's almost not enough skills in total to make it worth training to V, and among those, there are countless skills that will be of little to no interest for most people.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
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EmpressShiva
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:16:00 -
[11]
While this shouldnt ultimately affect your love or hate for eve, it's a silly mechanic that could use the chopping block. I'm quite sure half a thousand people will complain about having it removed.. but its truly no more than a silly timesink that is not helping new players enjoy the game.
Btw PVP is fine for <100k players. If you're expecting to ride around in battleships its a different story though. Fighting HACS isn't something i'd recommend solo, but you will definitely be aiding in the fight.
You can mine in a cruiser so I think that point is rather moot.. mining is always incredibly boring solo. hulk or not.
Missions are basically as bad as mining.. big ship or small.
EVE takes a bit of extra mustard compared to aion or wow, naturally, its not just an action game. None of my friends want to play EVE either. |
Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
You know, you can "waste" a few non optimally gained SP by training up for a frig and suitabel modules before training the learning skills to 4. That way you can do more than just sit docked the first two months.
but then how is he going to ever get the elite ship-spinning certificate ?
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Hornymatt
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:18:00 -
[13]
You used to start with 50k sp's and no accelerated learnig period, plus when the advanced learning skills came in the pre-req was the basics to lvl 5, which I think they have now changed.
The main thing to remember is that you don't have to sit in your hanger watching the sp's rack up, you can get out there and basically either (i) get some lower level PvP experience or (ii) earn isk in PvE to fund your future PvP habit.
If you're not already an experienced PvP'er who is just training up a new character I would recommend (i) as experience is just as important as sp's on the character (more so probably - I have a truckload of sp's but little PvP experience and am easy meat for less "skilled" but more experienced players).
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Heroldyn
but then how is he going to ever get the elite ship-spinning certificate ?
True, you got me there.
We need a new certificate if you managed to get all learning to lvl 5 before any other skills are trained: Watching paint dry - Elite
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LordSwift
Caldari
Fearless Phantoms Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:32:00 -
[15]
I would only train the basic learning skills to 5 and the advanced ones to 4 and leave them at that. you could even do away with the charisma skills for now. Get +3 or4 implants and your all set. You have to attribute resets as well so could change it to optimise learning then to something else.
I always advise newbie to get in a cruiser they like and make sure they can fit it half decently. then train as above learning skills. sorted
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:38:00 -
[16]
First of all Epic fail means something that fails so badly it turns good.
The reason learning skills are good is you can adapt to game changes, new skill focus and new game roles much faster. For example due to adv5Æs I got my Orca skill plan days faster which in turn let me not only start my T3 skill plan sooner but also finish it in a short amount of time. Stuff like that is the real advantage of learning skills at any level. You can change skill focus faster.
ôthe ability to actually do something in the game you couldn't before, or do something better.ö
Learning skills allow you to do new things faster. For example learning skills allowed me to fly T3 ships sooner and for a while better then without learning skills.
______
How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tippia on 04/09/2009 11:40:51
Originally by: LordSwift
I would only train the basic learning skills to 5 and the advanced ones to 4 and leave them at that. you could even do away with the charisma skills for now. Get +3 or4 implants and your all set. You have to attribute resets as well so could change it to optimise learning then to something else.
I always advise newbie to get in a cruiser they like and make sure they can fit it half decently. then train as above learning skills. sorted
^^ This. I'd even go so far as to say, get 4/3 at most first, and only if you feel the need, then play around with the game until you figure out what you want to do (and whether you actually like the game or not). After that, 5/4 might be a good next step along with Cybernetics to a decent level and if you figure out a field in which you really want to specialise, the advanced lvl Vs might be worth a look, but by the time that it becomes worth the extra training time, you'll be far enough into the game to figure that out for yourself.
To a point, I agree with the OP: the learning skills are a hindrance for new players, but the largest part of that lies with the numpties telling newcomers that they absolutely and immediately must max out every last learning skill or the world will come to an end.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Kaptain Kruncher
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:43:00 -
[18]
Don't worry about what or why. There is no "correct" skill path. Just have fun. The reason I stuck with this games is that I had fun from the first day I started playing. If you are already getting tweaked about having to spend time skilling for "the best" ships in order to have fun, do yourself a favor-TODAY. Call it the Acid Test for skilling: Download EveMon from Battleclinic (It's a Character Skill planner) Go to- Ship Browser and put in your racial Titan or any other Capital ship, then look at the time to skill that ship- yes it's like a year or more if you include all the skills to fit it correctly. If that causes you concern, then maybe you want to look for a different game.
All that aside- I never really focused on learning skills untill I was in for 5 months or so- Then I was invited to join a corp and CEO suggested we train all learning skills to level 4 because it would help us in the long run to train other skills more quickly. Like others have said, if you plan on playing this game for more than a few months, train em up- it will make a big difference in the long run.
There is also an efficient sequence to train your learning skills- I don't remember at the moment- but if you ask in this forum someone will have a list. If you contact me in game I will pass it on to you- I keep it in my in-game notes.
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Lialem
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:00:00 -
[19]
So we have 4 options on what to do with learning skills.
1) They stay and nothing changes and you have to learn them if you want faster training.
2) They stay but become more easier to train.
3) They are being removed from all characters and your skills now take way longer to train.
4) They are being removed and you get those attributes free.
Which one do you prefer? Of course you prefer the 4th option cause you are ex-wow and you like easy mode, point is eve is not easy and that's something you should learn from the beginning so you don't get surprised later.
For the record CCP did the 2cd option. I would have done the 1st.
I lost time training them, the poster above me lost time training them, the poster above him lost time training them, why you should be different and just earn them for free. If you don't want them don't train them, all of us that lost time training them will have a benefit.
Ex-wowers.....
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EmpressShiva
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:19:00 -
[20]
Eliminating noobs at the door step isn't survival of the fittest, it's just culling the playerbase. I would rather perform natural-selection manually at gunpoint in-game. Easy-mode for noobs has my bill of approval. Reduction of rank or consolidate the learning skill.
Alot of people encounter this 'learning' barrier and its natural. Everyone is telling them to level to 5/4 or near so as to not waste time. They could just not train them, but they're new. Alot follow advice of others and find their 14-21 day experience much more mediocre for it.
Just because the game was 'elite' once doesn't mean it should continue to unneccessarily be so. If CCP can attract ex-wowers then great, I'd love to play EVE with 50,000 more idiots to shoot if this would help in any way.
At the end of the day, I can't see learning skills going away.. because everyone is too sour about training these in the past. They did change stats and learning speed for new players.. so who knows ultimately. |
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Taradis
Amarr
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:39:00 -
[21]
Quit *****ing TBFH this is like what the 80th or so thread about learning skills. Deal with it noobs get a training bonus unlike us older players that started playing be4 said skill train bonus and wouldn't you believe it skill Q wasn't released until recently. 
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Nicski
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: LordSwift
I would only train the basic learning skills to 5 and the advanced ones to 4 and leave them at that. you could even do away with the charisma skills for now. Get +3 or4 implants and your all set. You have to attribute resets as well so could change it to optimise learning then to something else.
This is sound advice and I thank you for taking the time to post it. I had in fact already decided that I wouldn't bother with the final level 5 in the Advanced learning skills, simple because I am uncertain that EVE will continue beyond the 5 years that it would take to benefit from learning these last levels.
However, I think most people have missed the point I am trying to make. I am not sat docked in my station waiting for the learning skills to complete - as I said I am running level 3 missions in a Drake and have repeatidly gone off the optimal training path to give me minimalistic skills that I can use to make this game fun. The problem is that there is precious little in this game at the start to make it fun and logically speaking the most effective strategy would be for a noob to stay docked for the first 90 odd days. A game that continually increases the barrier that noobs have to climb over to get into the game is eventually going to fail through a lack of new blood coming into the game.
I understand that the advanced learning skills were added later in this game, and when they were I imagine existing players welcomed the chance to reduce the huge skill times of higher level skills. However, people need to think beyond their own self centered experience and consider the effect these have had on new players - there is now effectively a 3 month delay for a noob before he can start playing the game. If you cannot understand that and realise that that is going to have a bad effect on this game long term, then you are too stupid to be reading this thread, please move to another one.
As I sit writing this, the 2 friends who initially joined EVE with me, are sat in earshot discussing their experiences in AON, they want me to join them. But at the moment I remain loyal to EVE, I don't want to go back to another WOW type game, I like the Ship loss and Death penalty risks in this game, and the one PvP Kill I have made far outshone any WoW PvP experience, but it is going to a long grind before I can really start enjoying this game. I just hope it is still going by the time I get there.
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EmpressShiva
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Taradis
Quit *****ing TBFH this is like what the 80th or so thread about learning skills. Deal with it noobs get a training bonus unlike us older players that started playing be4 said skill train bonus and wouldn't you believe it skill Q wasn't released until recently.
Welcome to the skills forum, I suppose. Where players give their opinion of skills, even if its for the 80th time. |
Harvey Norman
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Posted - 2009.09.04 13:01:00 -
[24]
TL;DR
BUT! Train Learning to 5. Then the rest to level 4. Train them to 5 later on in the game, or not at all. It doesn't matter. Just to level 4 mainly. You can always mix it up and add skills and train them to level 3 to give training the learning ones a break.
It requires discipline and patience to train them. But in the long run, you'll like it.
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Myleena
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Posted - 2009.09.04 13:09:00 -
[25]
I smell an ex wow player.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.09.04 13:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: EmpressShiva
mining is always incredibly boring solo. hulk or not.
Missions are basically as bad as mining.. big ship or small.
Speak for yourself. I actually enjoy mining solo.
--Vel
Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks you're an asshat. |
EmpressShiva
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Posted - 2009.09.04 13:33:00 -
[27]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: EmpressShiva
mining is always incredibly boring solo. hulk or not.
Missions are basically as bad as mining.. big ship or small.
Speak for yourself. I actually enjoy mining solo.
I realize there are exceptions to the norm, but I can't find anything redeeming about mining personally. Pressing Function keys every 60 seconds like a machine is disgusting. Watching films or playing other games while mining doesn't change the actual enjoyment of the mining system. My opinion ofcourse  |
Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.09.04 13:34:00 -
[28]
So you're saying wow doesn't have an equivalence to this?
In wow everything you do up to (whatever the levelcap is now) is irrelavant (perhaps with the exception of trade skills), in eve, you can be a usefull resource with few days in game.
Once you reached that point, train up those learning skills (will take around twice the time of what it takes a hardcore player to get to level cap in wow, but noone says you have to do it in one go).
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Saint VII
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.04 14:15:00 -
[29]
I disagree with the supposition that everyone should train all learning skills to 5 before they do anything else. You must realize that when you make a new character you are learning your first 1.6m skillpoints at a HIGHLY accelerated rate. CCP has essentially loaned to you the positive effects of high learning skills and implants.
You want all your learning skills to 5 so that the skill that would have taken 40 minutes to train will now take 20?? Give me a break; use some common sense.
I did not start training Learning skills until I was already past the 1m SP mark, because it was more important to me to get basic functionality first. With 1m SP you can have your core competencies so you can actually use decent shilp buildouts, you can be flying cruisers decently and making good cash off salvage, you can be tackling for PvP fleets effectively..
.. my point is that you can be playing the game instead of sitting there theorizing that unless you waste two months training learning you couldn't possible complete an L1 mission lol.
Nevertheless, if it is your choice Nic to do nothing but nonplay while you train Learning, because you believe this to be "optimal", then that is your choice. That's what's great about EVE - you have many choices. But if this is the choice you make, then own it. Don't complain about it.
No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting. |
Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.04 14:16:00 -
[30]
Another nice troll.
That said, training learnings to 5/4 is awesome...if you have an established char to play while you let another char cook with those on a second account. If you don't, play catch-as-catch-can and don't worry about it. HAVE FUN. If a game isn't fun, then WTF are you doing playing it? Don't get enough pointless BS to deal with at work/school?
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