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Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 00:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, guy A is selling 100 thingamajigs at 10.00 isk. Then guy B shows up and puts his own sale order for 100 thingamajigs of his own at 9.99 isk. Guy A notices this and in seconds he lowers price of his thingamajigs to 9.98 ISK. Now Guy B is stuck because he has to wait five minutes before modifying the order. Worst yet, when his 5 minutes are up, he changes to 9.97 but by then, Guy A's timer is also up and in seconds he lowers to 9.96.
At this point, Guy B cancels the order, split the stock in half and places 50 thingamajigs at 9.95. As before, Guy A reacts and lowers his 100 thingamajigs to 9.94, thinking that Guy B can't modify price in 5 minutes. But Guy B then places his other 50 thingamajigs at 9.93, bypassing the 5 minutes timer. Now Guy A is the one stuck with the timer and Guy B is the one getting the market exposure.
...and of course, it works both ways when Guy A also split his stock in 4 parts... and so on and so on.
Is it OK to bypass the timer using the split stock / multiple orders method? |
Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 00:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:So, guy A is selling 100 thingamajigs at 10.00 isk. Then guy B shows up and puts his own sale order for 100 thingamajigs of his own at 9.99 isk. Guy A notices this and in seconds he lowers price of his thingamajigs to 9.98 ISK. Now Guy B is stuck because he has to wait five minutes before modifying the order. Worst yet, when his 5 minutes are up, he changes to 9.97 but by then, Guy A's timer is also up and in seconds he lowers to 9.96.
At this point, Guy B cancels the order, split the stock in half and places 50 thingamajigs at 9.95. As before, Guy A reacts and lowers his 100 thingamajigs to 9.94, thinking that Guy B can't modify price in 5 minutes. But Guy B then places his other 50 thingamajigs at 9.93, bypassing the 5 minutes timer. Now Guy A is the one stuck with the timer and Guy B is the one getting the market exposure.
...and of course, it works both ways when Guy A also split his stock in 4 parts... and so on and so on.
Is it OK to bypass the timer using the split stock / multiple orders method?
If you're going to babysit an order, you may as well anticipate this scenario and refrain from listing your stock in one chunk. If you try to impose a game mechanic to prevent this, it could still be circumvented by multiboxing alts.
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sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
7
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Posted - 2012.06.04 00:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Surely you must be joking. In the off-chance you aren't, the answer is "yes." |
Fremi Masag
FGC Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.04 00:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gotta work smarter, not harder :-) |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 02:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
sevyn nine wrote:Surely you must be joking. In the off-chance you aren't, the answer is "yes."
In that case, do you think there should be no timer?
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Jacob Stiller
The Scope Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 02:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:sevyn nine wrote:Surely you must be joking. In the off-chance you aren't, the answer is "yes." In that case, do you think there should be no timer?
That would be a valid "fix" imo. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 02:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jacob Stiller wrote:Shameless Avenger wrote:sevyn nine wrote:Surely you must be joking. In the off-chance you aren't, the answer is "yes." In that case, do you think there should be no timer? That would be a valid "fix" imo.
Agreed... if it's OK to bypass, then it should be removed. Less orders, less clikey, less entries on the DB etc etc....
And while we are at it (and please forgive my market noob-ness)... how come that if a "Corp Mate" plases a "Corp Order", another "Corp Mate" can't modify it? Unless there's some shiney role I need to turn on... but's what's the point of making the order a "Corporate Order"? |
Fremi Masag
FGC Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.04 02:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
The timer helps reduce the load on the server so I still think it's needed. The seller who cuts their stacks in half has less product at the forefront so there is a bit of a drawback on that initially. Plus he can only divide into so many stacks before he gimps himself.
The market timer still throttles the spam if they're .01ing. Once you .01 your 2 or 3 stacks, then the timer on the stacks will catch up. That way the server can handle the load for everyone a lot easier. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 02:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hum... nice lingo... ".01ing". That gives me an idea for an awesome market alt name: "The .01nger" |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
352
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Posted - 2012.06.04 05:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
this is pretty much the cutest thread md has seen in years. |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1117
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Posted - 2012.06.04 06:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Hum... nice lingo... ".01ing". That gives me an idea for an awesome market alt name: "The .01nger"
I have a cuter one:
Goldf 0.01nger
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Aina Sasaki
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
343
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 09:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's an accepted practice, though I try to avoid 0.01 isk wars as much as possible. Got better things to do with my time. :o - Rei |
Fremi Masag
FGC Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.04 10:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aina Sasaki wrote:It's an accepted practice, though I try to avoid 0.01 isk wars as much as possible. Got better things to do with my time. :o
I try and return fire on a ".01er" by hacking off large chunks. Yes, it eats into profits but the item tends to sell quicker. Take in less but turn over more for me at the moment. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
288
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Posted - 2012.06.04 10:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
corestwo wrote:this is pretty much the cutest thread md has seen in years.
Nah the : '' I bought a freighter now how can i earn money with it'' will allways be my favourite one. |
Rhivre
TarNec
10
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Posted - 2012.06.04 11:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Usually, it has less to do with me wanting to bother other traders (although, it is cute when they think I am taking time out of my day to stress about them), and more to do with the following:
I have 100 for sale, you have 100 for sale, 3 other guys have 100 for sale. You undercut me whilst I have my timer up, meanwhile, 5 more of my item have come in, so I put them up under you, everyone updates. 10 come in for me, I put them up under you again, so now I have 3 orders, only I haven't moved the 100 at the original price because, meh, 100 at the old price is nice, and while I keep getting small piles come in from my buy order, I may as well stick them on the market.
In order to prevent the situation in the OP, you would have to make cancelling orders not possible at all ( so not able to change your mind once you put the orders up), or remove the timer (which is there for cancelling as well anyway). |
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
77
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Posted - 2012.06.04 11:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Split your stacks guys and your have less time to wait. Instead of selling 100 in one stack, you sell 2x50 and those with 5min waiting time are getting tears. You will be always faster. |
Rykker Bow
7
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Posted - 2012.06.04 12:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote: Agreed... if it's OK to bypass, then it should be removed. Less orders, less clikey, less entries on the DB etc etc....
And while we are at it (and please forgive my market noob-ness)... how come that if a "Corp Mate" plases a "Corp Order", another "Corp Mate" can't modify it? Unless there's some shiney role I need to turn on... but's what's the point of making the order a "Corporate Order"?
AFAIK it can't be done and it's a good thing in my opinion. I can envision a couple of problems with this, which while may be addressable to prevent the problems it poses, may not be in an individual traders best interest (namely me! )
Theft or fraud: If a corp mates can change orders, the person who's item that is is susceptible to everyone who has access to that order. They can change the price and buy it themselves, cancel it, increase the price to create high fees to the corp, etc etc
advantage to larger corps: High member corps could control markets by having tens or even hundreds of members updating prices on the same item throughout the day, and 23.5 hours a day to boot. Corps would eventually squeeze out the individual trader.
As to the 5 minute timer, not a big deal. It offers another PVP weapon in the market for the traders that know how to bypass it and use it against others that place all their items in one order. If you know your item's personality, then you'll know when you need to break your order up into smaller chunks. |
Andy DelGardo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 12:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Like noted its a valid method of circumvent the timer. It also shows how stupid this whole 0.1isk game is, so the main "skill" u need is simply how much time u have on your hands clicking "modify order" + scroll-up + enter. This is so efficient and works for buy and sell orders, basically 3 traders that have no RL job can 0.1isk deadlock any good they want. I wish the order system would more reflect real world markets, where u cant simply change a order every 5mins and have to actually "think" how and when u setup a order.
There are some tactics that can help:
1) Always change 1-3 random numbers in the price and don't just scroll-up. This means instead of just a lazy scroll-up, the trader has to at least manually or via copy&paste get the current price, which basically doubles or triples the effective update time for him/her. So this may or may not annoy him at least a bit, but since he already plays this boring and annoying 0.1isk game anyway he may be unaffected by this :p
2) If u don't play 0.1isk games always increase in large steps, the traders will beat your price by 0.1isk anyway 1-5 min later. So u can try scare them off, if they notice u will always raise your price by a meaningful amount, therefor raising/lowering the avg. price, which is also normally not in the interest of the trader. The problem here is that u need solid knowledge of the good u sell/buy, so u can set valid min/max limits. This works best if u are an industrialist, since your profit wont come only from the trade margin, so u can be more aggressive on your price politic, while the trader has to work just with the trade margin.
3) U can try manipulate a price, works especially good in Jita with lots of competition. The basic idea is to slowly but steady raise/lower the sell/buy order price. The idea here is that your goal is to simply reduce the trader margin, so less traders are interested in this particular good. U may take a small loss, if u change to aggressively, but if done right u can pretty much lower the margin between sell/buy orders drastically. Keep in mind this only works if u can abandon this market yourself and are not depending on it. So if u operate in other markets, your competition buying in your manipulated market has to pay more or sell for less.
bye
Andy |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
609
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 14:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
In my humble opinion, if you're modifying your orders more than 3 times a day (even that's a lot if you have a proper "portfolio"), you're doing it wrong.
I also can't think of a better way to burn yourself out on trading quickly and permanently. |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 14:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
The above are all wrong. You must sell all your items in one sell order or you can be banned for spamming the market with multiple orders. |
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
148
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Posted - 2012.06.04 14:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:In my humble opinion, if you're modifying your orders more than 3 times a day (even that's a lot if you have a proper "portfolio"), you're doing it wrong.
I also can't think of a better way to burn yourself out on trading quickly and permanently.
bin down that path before myself, 10 stacks per item 1 month later I just said F it. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
290
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 15:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
hmmmm kara |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
1140
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 17:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:In my humble opinion, if you're modifying your orders more than 3 times a day (even that's a lot if you have a proper "portfolio"), you're doing it wrong. I have a weakly self-imposed "one order price change per week" guideline myself.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Akita_T http://eve-search.com/stats/Akita_T T2 BPO poll : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114789 |
Trollin
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 18:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
also OP is completely discounting that every split stack is tying up ANOTHER of their open order slots, so its coming out of your ass other ways also
not even to mention confusions about which orders were modified or why the hell would one check orders every 5 minutes.
you would be better off collecting recyclables from the trash can at your local (park/comunity college/public library/mall) and buying rubber gloves and a face masks to protect your identity PLEX to resell than spending 15 hours a day .01isking
50 recyclables per hour x15 hrs= 750*.05$=37.50$=~1bn isk/day . |
HalfArse
Dark Matter Avionics
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 13:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rykker Bow wrote:AFAIK it can't be done and it's a good thing in my opinion. I can envision a couple of problems with this, which while may be addressable to prevent the problems it poses, may not be in an individual traders best interest (namely me! ) Theft or fraud: If a corp mates can change orders, the person who's item that is is susceptible to everyone who has access to that order. They can change the price and buy it themselves, cancel it, increase the price to create high fees to the corp, etc etc the person whos item that is? its a corp order so its the corps. corp theft is always an issue and is why you have to be careful who gets what rights - its the same with hangers and lab access
Rykker Bow wrote: advantage to larger corps: High member corps could control markets by having tens or even hundreds of members updating prices on the same item throughout the day, and 23.5 hours a day to boot. Corps would eventually squeeze out the individual trader.
On the flip side of this - it also means that corps cant do corp trading - means there are no proper trading corporations which is a big shame imo - lots of ppl working together SHOULD have an advantage over individuals, and you wont get hundreds of people all updating prices on the same items because as per previous mention of theft - how can a corp give that much unrestricted access to all of their assets (on the market)? At most youd get maybe 10-15 and players who are interested in teh market enough to want to for a trading corp like that are savvy enough to not need to play 0.01isk wars.
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Fremi Masag
FGC Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.05 14:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
HalfArse wrote:Rykker Bow wrote:AFAIK it can't be done and it's a good thing in my opinion. I can envision a couple of problems with this, which while may be addressable to prevent the problems it poses, may not be in an individual traders best interest (namely me! ) Theft or fraud: If a corp mates can change orders, the person who's item that is is susceptible to everyone who has access to that order. They can change the price and buy it themselves, cancel it, increase the price to create high fees to the corp, etc etc the person whos item that is? its a corp order so its the corps. corp theft is always an issue and is why you have to be careful who gets what rights - its the same with hangers and lab access Rykker Bow wrote: advantage to larger corps: High member corps could control markets by having tens or even hundreds of members updating prices on the same item throughout the day, and 23.5 hours a day to boot. Corps would eventually squeeze out the individual trader.
On the flip side of this - it also means that corps cant do corp trading - means there are no proper trading corporations which is a big shame imo - lots of ppl working together SHOULD have an advantage over individuals, and you wont get hundreds of people all updating prices on the same items because as per previous mention of theft - how can a corp give that much unrestricted access to all of their assets (on the market)? At most youd get maybe 10-15 and players who are interested in teh market enough to want to play in a trading corp like that are savvy enough to not need to play 0.01isk wars.
What might be interesting in the future is a wholesale or corp market where corps can deal at the higher levels described. Then the regular market can be open to all as is. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fremi Masag wrote: What might be interesting in the future is a wholesale or corp market where corps can deal at the higher levels described. Then the regular market can be open to all as is.
Hum... interesting...
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Rykker Bow
8
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Posted - 2012.06.05 16:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:Fremi Masag wrote: What might be interesting in the future is a wholesale or corp market where corps can deal at the higher levels described. Then the regular market can be open to all as is.
Hum... interesting...
Agreed, very interesting indeed. This idea is worthy of discussion. Ideas on how it can benifit corps while protecting smaller traders? |
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