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Killmails mutilate PvP.

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Xiozor Perkone	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:01:00 - [1] I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. ----------------------------------------------- Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:04:00 - [2] We don't have enough killmails and kill statistics. We need to have killmails for pods as well as ships, showing the implants lost. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Shade Millith Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:05:00 - [3] Quote: Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Problem with this line of thought, is that what incentive do they have to KEEP the 1v1 even if there's no killmails? Without a killmail, there's no record of there being more than one person. --------------------------------------------
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Bellum Eternus We don't have enough killmails and kill statistics. We need to have killmails for pods as well as ships, showing the implants lost. Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 08/09/2009 10:10:08 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. If they are bad fleet member, exlucde them form fleet until they sahpe themself up. If sombody don't want to ruin their ratio, who cares, its not like anyone other then the most noobs look on the statisitcs and say "ooh, look at this "pro" wiht so good ratio, lol". "I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed." Your loss buddy. Seriously. I myself do not use faction ships that much simply because I do not find them to be worth it in terms of isk/perfromace ratio, I could care less about isk losses on a silly killmail. But if you and sombody else is obseddive over it, it sounds like personal problem. Killmails are nice, so that you see what you killed etc. Its also a fun way to rememebr kills and losses. Nothing more then that to me. Originally by: Bellum Eternus We don't have enough killmails and kill statistics. We need to have killmails for pods as well as ships, showing the implants lost. No, to see implent loss you need to actually dissect the corps. The body do not "pop" in the pod loss you know. This is just a random arbitrary suggestion that makes no sense. The ability to extrace some implants form a corps however would be interesting, tho a bit strange as well, since implants is likyl tailored to a user. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Leon Angeal Caldari Lonetrek Trade and Industries	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:08:00 - [6] Kill mails are good if used correctly, but yet can also be ignored completely if you dont like how they work. I regularly log on, fit a pvp ship, go get myself blown up in a variety of entertaining ways, then log off again. Yes my K/D ratio is terrible, but I have fun and honostly couldn't give a damn . If you want to buy Navy Issue Megathron's to pvp in, and you have the money/maturity to lose them, go for it and have some fun imo!
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:13:00 - [7] Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 08/09/2009 10:15:55 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. It's a two edged sword, a killboard can be datamined to look out for those useless killmail ***s. Too little damage done, ECMing pods are signs that don't lie. Killboards point allocation should also be more based on damage (making special categories for ewarfare and tacklers) so one crow pilot with ungrouped launchers doesn't get on top of the ranking. It's too bad we don't have report on remote repairing and cap warfare effectiveness, or even drone killing for that matter. Quote:** I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. My ISK efficiency eventually got screwed but bringing a pimp ship in PvP definitely tastes different, you should try it. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. That part at least is easily fixable - I'd give the guy 1 fair warning. If that repeats - kick out. Make it very clear that that's not cool. Originally by: Xiozor Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. I agree that these influences on behaviour are often detrimental. OTOH this semi-objective measure of competency is also helpfull in a competetive environment. Is a corp that only looks at your stats without talking to you and listening to your reasons why you haven't otimized your stats really worth joining? --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
tythos	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:35:00 - [9] Edited by: tythos on 08/09/2009 10:35:47 Quote: But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. You are WAY to hung up about killboards... Who cares?? Seriously, does it really matter? Just have fun, thats what matters. Quote: with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp You would really want to join a corp that was that hung up on killboards? Seriously, instead of saying 'I'm leet at PVP, let me in', try 'Hi, I like blowing stuff up and dont care if I get killed. You guys look like fun, can I join you?'. I'm never want to join a corp that was that firmly wedged up its own backside.
Damien Klesk Antiquated.	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:37:00 - [10] Killmails, like isk or sov can be considered a measure of success in this game. Lets remove the lot so we can all be winners!
Another Forum'Alt Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:38:00 - [11] I agree. Stupid e*** killmail whoring is bad. Also, it encourages everyone to bring a cheap, badly fitted ship to get on mails, but not lose as much isk when it eventually explodes. BECAUSE OF FALCON.** Guide to forum posting
Drichter	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:40:00 - [12] Edited by: Drichter on 08/09/2009 10:43:06 I fully support this. FIX KILLMA... err what? Quote: I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Either your fleet sucks (including FC) and can't listen too orders or your fleet is awesome enough that it wins although everyone's shooting first, second, third, forth, fifth, ... , nineteenth target at the same time. Quote: Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' Different ppl have different "goals" in this game. I don't ask to remove the mining profession just because i don't have the goal to throw Chribba of his throne of veldspar. Quote: I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Short:I don't think so. Long: I think it's more of a shame for someone not honoring a 1vs1. Quote: Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, Good logisticspilots don't appear on killmails, that's right. The best ones do. I don't fly one though, but i also think it's a fitting thing ... when the last Transporter doesn't fit or won't run capstable anyway, i just go and fit a gun (to draw aggro and die on the gate). Quote: I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. Well, that's your psych. Fix it urself tbh! Quote: But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. Good Corps don't look at that this way. They look at 'how often', 'what ships', 'how much on each site', ... So, say a corp is looking for a team-player and your board is only showing 1vs1, they may consider not recruiting you. But that's good for you too, cause you obviously don't fit in it properly. ... That goes for all scenarios btw. If that is not the cause (eg u've flown always solo but now want to try fleets), a personal conversation could help. Edit: Btw i don't like flying too expensive ships into battle too, but that's only because i can't afford them easily. So feel free to give me some isk, so that i can have fun loosing my overpriced faction battleship to a ceptor or something like that.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:44:00 - [13] the killmail system is a tool to protocol actions and circumstances of kills. people being ***heads is a general problem in eve and has nothing todo with said system.
Saartje Sarel	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Saartje Sarel on 08/09/2009 10:46:35 Edited by: Saartje Sarel on 08/09/2009 10:45:47 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. I suspect the problem is that you are fighting pointless wars/battles. If they meant something and winning was a neccessity, it might be different. As for whoring stats and self important narcissitic aspies etc. Its a mmo. Normal well adjusted people go out and have sex instead.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:56:00 - [15] To the OP: Your problem is not killmails. Your problem is lousy fleet/alliance discipline! It is up to your alliance leaders and FC's to forge that discipline, and is one of the things that distinguish a good alliance from a bad one. In a good alliance with good leadership, this is not an issue... The pilots will follow orders and fly their ships as directed. They'll also show up in their best fit as they understand the value of teamwork. If their ship needs to be sacrificed, they'll sacrifice it! In less good alliances, people work for themselves, and thus that alliance deserves to fail! You're trying to address the wrong problem.... If anything, KM's should be much more detailed, and include EVERYTHING lost, including implants, ships in hangars, skill points if clone not up to date, clones in clonebays etc. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.09.08 10:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Drichter Different ppl have different "goals" in this game. I don't ask to remove the mining profession just because i don't have the goal to throw Chribba of his throne of veldspar. Da Veldspar is mine! Win a Wyvern mothership for 10M ISK

Thorexion Lynch Gallente Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.09.08 11:16:00 - [17] I see where you're coming from dude, but it's not killmails that are the problem, it the killboards! Every one (or at least the majority of eve) basically live by them.
Leather Jack	Posted - 2009.09.08 12:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Thorexion Lynch I see where you're coming from dude, but it's not killmails that are the problem, it the killboards! Every one (or at least the majority of eve) basically live by them.
Gefex Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.08 12:31:00 - [19] Its the killmail's themselves, they need to be refactored to take other things into account like assisting with remote reps, or like you say a 7 gun ship attacking 7 targets. ECM jams, damping or any other ewar that got applied. A proper battle statistic system to replace killmails would be awesome. As for rubbish k/d ratio, its a fallacy, you can have someone who lost a Titan and has killed thousands of ships still be in the major negatives. On the same token you can have someone who has never lost a ship that managed to ***** on a few killmails here and there by playing docking games in empire have a positive. Which is the better PvPer?
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.08 12:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Kerfira To the OP: Your problem is not killmails. Your problem is lousy fleet/alliance discipline! It is up to your alliance leaders and FC's to forge that discipline, and is one of the things that distinguish a good alliance from a bad one. In a good alliance with good leadership, this is not an issue... The pilots will follow orders and fly their ships as directed. They'll also show up in their best fit as they understand the value of teamwork. If their ship needs to be sacrificed, they'll sacrifice it! In less good alliances, people work for themselves, and thus that alliance deserves to fail! You're trying to address the wrong problem.... If anything, KM's should be much more detailed, and include EVERYTHING lost, including implants, ships in hangars, skill points if clone not up to date, clones in clonebays etc. Preety much, this. If people behave like ******s in a fleet in order to rack up KMs, then that is a problem with the FC allowing it and the corp/alliance discipline. As for the complaint about solo and K/D & ISK efficiency, I would like to point out that no serious corp will base the decision on whether to take you or not based on whether you occasionally go out in a faction ship and generate a expensive lossmail (on the other hand, they do want a reasonably efficient PVP-er, that bit is true; but wouldn't you want one as well?). There are other reasons why people generally avoid doing that (eg, the fact that replacing faction ship losses does hurt wallets, them being gank magnets, and so on). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tellenta Gallente Invicta. Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.09.08 13:23:00 - [21] The real tragedy is the lack of "screw it the worst that can happen is we lose all our ships" attitudes. Those usually lead to the best fights. My latest loss was from triggering a trap somewhere in placid. It started with 1 carrier and some support on a gate which we attacked with 13 BS which turned in to a trap with 3 carriers on the gate at least 1 in triage, we withdrew picked up the bat phone and re-engaged with 40+ BS/logistics. The real trap hadn't been sprung yet and we knew it and it turned out to be 14ish carriers and a dread. While I am not sure on the total losses on the allied side we killed 3 of the carriers. Sadly I had to log off before the final engagement but all in all it was a good time, which is what this game is really about not some omg I'm good at pvp because I avoid fights fallacy that killboards really represent.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.09.08 14:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Bellum Eternus We don't have enough killmails and kill statistics. We need to have killmails for pods as well as ships, showing the implants lost. This.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp	Posted - 2009.09.08 14:42:00 - [23] you could just do a little research on your killboard and see who is doing this and kick or discipline them. ------ back from 90day forum ban.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.09.08 14:43:00 - [24] Killmails are a user-created problem. I love the addition of KMs themselves. I killed a 2 bn ISK drake the other day and it's hilarious being able to see exactly what he had fitted (It was active tanked ). It's nice being able to look at the KB and get a brief snapshot of what happened recently. The problems are created because people care about stats too much. If someone in my corp started farming killmails as described in the OP, they'd no longer be invited to fleets.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.08 15:09:00 - [25] Edited by: Shadowsword on 08/09/2009 15:13:04 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles... This issue isn't a game mechanic but a behaviour. Just spank the idiot, and kick him out if the spanking didn't work. Other idiots will stop being idiots, then, or they won't be in your gang. Either way, problem solved. Quote: Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. Who care about ratios? It ruin your game only if you choose to pay attention to them. When I look at my killboard, I look only at two things: my number of kills, and my place compared to my corpmates. And I fly what I like to fly, I don't give a rat-ass about the impact on ratios if I lose it. Quote: But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. Unless you have a truely terrific record (like, losing BCs to frigs in 1v1), any recruiter worth it's salt will be more interested in activity thant actual isk ratios. PS: if you lose pvp-fit faction ships, the recruiters will think you brave, or not overly obssessed with your wallet, and that will work out in your favor. ------------------------------------------
Sig Sour	Posted - 2009.09.08 15:11:00 - [26] I HATE kill mail *****s. I earn a position at the top of the killboard in small fight, having my ship fit proper, and getting kills. Then some dork puts sensor boosters in place of his tank on a BS in a big fleet and fires one shot at every target, does zero damage and bumps me off the kill board. Is this something CCP should fix? No. Its the kill board systems and fame & shame for the ones doing this that will fix it.
Neriel Odershank	Posted - 2009.09.08 15:24:00 - [27] We don't need killmails, all we need is a message text saying "yaiii you rock, you pwned him ahahaha you are the best ffs!!!!1!"
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.09.08 15:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Drichter Different ppl have different "goals" in this game. I don't ask to remove the mining profession just because i don't have the goal to throw Chribba of his throne of veldspar. Da Veldspar is mine! I may have accidentally mined some Veldspar. I'm sorry! --Vel
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.08 16:13:00 - [29] Who's brilliant idea was it anyway to give the 20 people involved in a ship destruction one kill each? If everyone on that mail would have been given 1/20th of the kill most problems you have now will disappear completely. This is a killboard problem, not a killmail problem. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Gautan Virdamot Nebula Rasa Vanguard	Posted - 2009.09.08 16:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Leon Angeal Kill mails are good if used correctly, but yet can also be ignored completely if you dont like how they work. I regularly log on, fit a pvp ship, go get myself blown up in a variety of entertaining ways, then log off again. Yes my K/D ratio is terrible, but I have fun and honostly couldn't give a damn . If you want to buy Navy Issue Megathron's to pvp in, and you have the money/maturity to lose them, go for it and have some fun imo! Matters **** all if you don't like how they work, they work in the way of the bible during the dark ages, everyone bow down before the almighty killmail! You may think you're above them but everyone else will judge you based on that kill to death ratio, regardless of how many 40 to 1 ganks are on it.

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