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Killmails mutilate PvP.

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Janjan Jansen Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.08 16:48:00 - [31] So if you are only on 40 to 1 grief kills you are such a good pvp'er. And 5-vs-1 they lose because they are like ohh **** we dont outnumber him/her by enough ppl. Would love to fly which such people.
Slave 2739FKZ Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.08 16:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Killmails are a user-created problem. I love the addition of KMs themselves. I killed a 2 bn ISK drake the other day and it's hilarious being able to see exactly what he had fitted (It was active tanked ). It's nice being able to look at the KB and get a brief snapshot of what happened recently. The problems are created because people care about stats too much. If someone in my corp started farming killmails as described in the OP, they'd no longer be invited to fleets. This. killmails favour *gotry, but you can't stop s from being s. YL;DR: there are too much s in EVE who care about internet pixel spaceships/money. WIS is an expansion which allows EVE players to wear leather and walk around stations. Dust514 is a console shooter/rts* which will tie into EVE and affect sov.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.08 16:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Malcanis on 08/09/2009 16:55:48 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. Idiots who put 1 gun on 7 targets would find other ways to be be idiots if KMs were removed. Stupid CEOs who look at raw KB stats without noticing that someone is always at the bottom of every KM will be stupid in other ways if KMs are removed. Pretty much any tool can be abused; your real problem is not with killmails but with bad players. EDIT Although I must admit to finding it hilarious when I look at my alliance KB, since it flatters me like a smooth dude hoping to get into my trustfunded panties.
Chai Beeta	Posted - 2009.09.08 17:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. Seeing people who can easily afford to replace a ship don't fly them in 1v1's because it will 'ruin their K/D' and I think one of the biggest reasons that no 1v1's can ever be trusted to be honoured is because there is a bigger incentive not to lose other than just losing the ship itself. Another thing that killmails cause, Basilisks/Guardians fitting weapons, suicide ganking hulks (I know you gain isk from the drops, but the main motivations is isk efficiency stats.) I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. But worst of all you have no choice but to care about your KB stats because that is the only reflection of you as a PvPer and with bad KB stats noone will recruit you in to a new corp and noone will consider you a decent PvPer, even if you die more because you 'actually' pvp where you are presented with genuine risks rather than garunteed ganks. you dont have a killmail problem you have a pilot management problem. some FCs review killmails after and can spot a repeat offender. Originally by: Leon Angeal If you want to buy Navy Issue Megathron's to pvp in, and you have the money/maturity to lose them, go for it and have some fun imo! confirming you need maturity level 5 to fly a navy mega Originally by: Merdaneth If everyone on that mail would have been given 1/20th of the kill most problems you have now will disappear completely. this pretty much sums up the critical thinking ability of the average amarr pilot
MaxxOmega Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:19:00 - [35] I don't care if I EVER get a kill. I find it much more fun to jam people and watch them sit helplessly and castrated while someone else pounds away on them...
Oddymandius Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:29:00 - [36] Edited by: Oddymandius on 08/09/2009 18:32:10 Originally by: Sidus Isaacs No, to see implent loss you need to actually dissect the corpse. The body do not "pop" in the pod loss you know. This is just a random arbitrary suggestion that makes no sense. The ability to extrace some implants form a corpse however would be interesting, though a bit strange as well, since implants is likly tailored to a user. I'd love it if CCP introduced a "Necroneurology" skill. It could be high tier with Science-y prerequisites, and give a 2% chance per level of extracting any intact implants from a corpse (all would also have a % chance of being destroyed in the podkill). Think of the new, yucky profession and corpse trading market this would create EDIT: screw it, this is going to features and ideas.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:38:00 - [37] Dont take away my enjoyment, I love the funny and down right odd KMs that pop up.
VoiceInTheDesert Inroads	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:42:00 - [38] Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 08/09/2009 18:42:49 KMs are an accurate metric. That seems to upset the OP, but I'm not sure why. It just reveals the truth of how efficient they are in pvp. If you're "actually" pvping and dying a lot, I don't want you in my corp as much as a guy who has shown he does NOT die a lot. If you have problems with km *****s, that's an issue with the people you fly with, not the km system. And yes, I want kms for pods. I've had a few suspected pirate implant pods under my guns and it makes me sad to not know :(
Sadayiel Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:54:00 - [39] i don't know why so much hate for killmails, i ever tought they are there to allow us laugh at the lolfits was i wrong? -------------------------------------- You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til you understand who's in ruttin' command here.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:00:00 - [40] Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 08/09/2009 18:42:49 KMs are an accurate metric. That seems to upset the OP, but I'm not sure why. It just reveals the truth of how efficient they are in pvp. If you're "actually" pvping and dying a lot, I don't want you in my corp as much as a guy who has shown he does NOT die a lot. If you have problems with km *****s, that's an issue with the people you fly with, not the km system. And yes, I want kms for pods. I've had a few suspected pirate implant pods under my guns and it makes me sad to not know :( I agree for the most part, however I will point out one thing. You will find that most of the best PVP pilots in the game also have a high ratio of deaths. I would much rather have the pilot that gets 200 kills and 30 losses each and every week, rather than the pilot that gets 10 kills and no losses every week. The first pilot is out there taking chances, getting in peoples grill, jumping in a new ship when necessary to dive back in and help turn the tide of a battle. This type of pilot helps your corp or alliance obtain its objectives. The latter pilot is playing it safe, going for easy ganks, bailing on his corp mates when the situation starts to look grim. This type of pilot in reality often ends up worsening your corps overall kill/death ratio by leaving others to die in his place instead of hanging in there and helping to make the engagement successful. Not to mention doing little to help the corp obtain its other (usually territorial) objectives. To sum up, yes, those stats should be freely available and easy to read. Just remember that often you can't just take those stats at face value... you need to look at them with a wiser eye. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
McFly C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:24:00 - [41] Moar Killmail detail InGame system to supplement killmail information MOAR KILL MAIL DETAIL! I dont pvp a lot anymore, but killmails are a great tool for the players. As a ceo, it gave me an idea of what had been going on since I was last online (critical during every hour counts wars) as a pilot if gave me some pride to look back on the good fights in the past. Finally as an alliance leader it showed me many of the effects the ceo's different pvp/management ideologies resulted in their corp's performance not only in pvp, but also in tactics. Killmails dont tell the whole story, but eyewitnesses don't either, so combining the two is a great way to balance out FC Battlereports and a supplemental tool for analyzing a fight. What went right, what went wrong, where the mistakes were, and etc... essentially, moar detail = better tool.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:28:00 - [42] Killboards have it all wrong. People care far too much about the ISK on killboards. Really, its an 'interesting' addition, but its ALWAYS wrong, never once seen a killboard that got the values right. Pods and Implants, Insurance, did the owner actually 'buy' any of that stuff? BPCs and BPOs, no distinction. Really, ISK is the most useless and incorrect stat on any kill board. Its not even 'normalized' between boards. One alliance's killboard might say a kill cost the guy 3,000,000,000 ISK, the alliance that lost, might add that up to 50,000,000 ISK. Take mammoth sized alliances with k:d ratios so bad you'd hang up your boots and never play again, but great ISK efficiency so they can wave their willies about. This is the heart of the matter. EVE isn't about PVP to some people, sadly they are the blob you want to find a 'fair' or at least 'fun' fight with and they wont ever bring it for the precious ISK efficiency might begin to dive as well! They'll even tell you that in local as they laugh at your alliance's pitiful number of blues. /me shrugs and loads up some LFD Originally by: Machine Delta When making a point, anyone taking it should consider the source. pretty deep coming from you
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:46:00 - [43] Originally by: Shadowsword Who care about ratios? It ruin your game only if you choose to pay attention to them. When I look at my killboard, I look only at two things: my number of kills, and my place compared to my corpmates. And I fly what I like to fly, I don't give a rat-ass about the impact on ratios if I lose it. Same if you don't care of your stats, others players will care of yours. Remember XIII... Originally by: Shadowsword PS: if you lose pvp-fit faction ships, the recruiters will think you brave, or not overly obssessed with your wallet, and that will work out in your favor. Or that you are an idiot as you can perfectly fight with less ISK, and as ISK are necessary for war... Depend of who is the recruiter. Originally by: Ranger 1 I agree for the most part, however I will point out one thing. You will find that most of the best PVP pilots in the game also have a high ratio of deaths. I would much rather have the pilot that gets 200 kills and 30 losses each and every week, rather than the pilot that gets 10 kills and no losses every week. Generaly, the best PVP pilots are also the one who play since 4 years or more, or who have more time to play. So it is normal that they have a good performance but also a high ratio of deaths : They play more. _______ Local is fine, period. CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ?
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.08 20:57:00 - [44] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/09/2009 20:58:41 Originally by: Sky Marshal Same if you don't care of your stats, others players will care of yours. Remember XIII... Caring about KB stats is OK; caring about the wrong KB stats is bad. Just looking at a K/D ratio or ISK efficiency is so bad even killboards, the stupid automated tools they are, don't rank by that. So if you meet someone who is more stupid then a automated script, you can preety much consider it fortunate you don't have to fly with him. If you want to see how good someone is, you do need to spend a bit of time poring over their killboard - and tbh, points, with all its flaws, is a far better metric then ISK efficiency or K/D ratio. You do need to check what sort of fights the pilot gets into and with what sort of results, however, if you want to see how well someone does in practice. Of course, someone who insists on being more stupid then a simple php script when it comes to evaluating pilots probably does not have the patience for that. It is nobody's fail but his. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
VoiceInTheDesert Inroads	Posted - 2009.09.08 21:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert Edited by: VoiceInTheDesert on 08/09/2009 18:42:49 KMs are an accurate metric. That seems to upset the OP, but I'm not sure why. It just reveals the truth of how efficient they are in pvp. If you're "actually" pvping and dying a lot, I don't want you in my corp as much as a guy who has shown he does NOT die a lot. If you have problems with km *****s, that's an issue with the people you fly with, not the km system. And yes, I want kms for pods. I've had a few suspected pirate implant pods under my guns and it makes me sad to not know :( I agree for the most part, however I will point out one thing. You will find that most of the best PVP pilots in the game also have a high ratio of deaths. I would much rather have the pilot that gets 200 kills and 30 losses each and every week, rather than the pilot that gets 10 kills and no losses every week. The first pilot is out there taking chances, getting in peoples grill, jumping in a new ship when necessary to dive back in and help turn the tide of a battle. This type of pilot helps your corp or alliance obtain its objectives. The latter pilot is playing it safe, going for easy ganks, bailing on his corp mates when the situation starts to look grim. This type of pilot in reality often ends up worsening your corps overall kill/death ratio by leaving others to die in his place instead of hanging in there and helping to make the engagement successful. Not to mention doing little to help the corp obtain its other (usually territorial) objectives. To sum up, yes, those stats should be freely available and easy to read. Just remember that often you can't just take those stats at face value... you need to look at them with a wiser eye. Certainly agreed, but I'll still say it's an accurate metric. It's a metric of both participation AND efficiency. Both have to be taken into account with recruits, but it's still a good, accurate metric for each.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.08 22:15:00 - [46] I agree that killmails never should have been in the game. There are plenty of games that keep track of your points, status, kills, deaths, etc. Eve doesn't need them, IMO.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council Seposita Astrum	Posted - 2009.09.08 23:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Bellum Eternus We don't have enough killmails and kill statistics. We need to have killmails for pods as well as ships, showing the implants lost. Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
Blastil	Posted - 2009.09.09 00:19:00 - [48] Some units in WW2 painted little black ships or bombs on their planes denoting the number of targets destroyed. Some units found this promoted bad behaviors and stopped doing so. Kill mails are useless unless you take the data they parse and post them on the interwebs. KB's are NOT built in aspects of EVE. You can in fact do anything you want with a killmail, including parsing information on the most common weapon lost in PVP, etc. If you don't like a tool in EVE DON"T USE IT.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.09 00:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 08/09/2009 10:15:55 Originally by: Xiozor I see why the removal of killmails is not possible at this stage. But I really do wish they were never included in the first place. I am sick of seeing fleet members assign 1 gun to 7 targets despite primary to farm killmails in fleetbattles. It's a two edged sword, a killboard can be datamined to look out for those useless killmail ***s. Too little damage done, ECMing pods are signs that don't lie. Killboards point allocation should also be more based on damage (making special categories for ewarfare and tacklers) so one crow pilot with ungrouped launchers doesn't get on top of the ranking. It's too bad we don't have report on remote repairing and cap warfare effectiveness, or even drone killing for that matter. Quote: I have even found myself leaving behind my bigger toys in favour of cheaper ones where even though I could buy that Navy Issue Megathron 10x over I don't because my isk efficiency will get screwed. My ISK efficiency eventually got screwed but bringing a pimp ship in PvP definitely tastes different, you should try it. Yes, but damage done is totally **ing stupid on killmails. It's constantly screwed up. --
Cpt Branko Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.09 00:28:00 - [50] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Yes, but damage done is totally ****ing stupid on killmails. It's constantly screwed up. That or the server/client just don't know when a ship exactly popped, or something. Eg, last night we were engaging a small gang and I got two volleys on a (prayer tanked, ha ha) Scorpion - both doing somewhere around ~1500 damage according to my logs. Damage on killmail: zero. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.09 00:47:00 - [51] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Marcus Druallis Yes, but damage done is totally ****ing stupid on killmails. It's constantly screwed up. That or the server/client just don't know when a ship exactly popped, or something. Eg, last night we were engaging a small gang and I got two volleys on a (prayer tanked, ha ha) Scorpion - both doing somewhere around ~1500 damage according to my logs. Damage on killmail: zero. Yeah that happens to me sometimes too. Even with guns. --
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.09.09 05:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 09/09/2009 05:10:32 Would someone mind confirming what this thread seems to be saying? This thread seems to be saying that the way to get te best possible statistics as an EvE "PvPer" is to hide at the back of the largest possible group of other players, and do minimal damage to each target. This will then give the player boasting rights among other "PvPers", and makes them more attractive recuits to "PvP" Corps.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.09.09 06:02:00 - [53] How about eliminating killmails and replacing them with "incident reports" containing all information on the encounter and the outcome. This could also record losses, if the target self-destructs, how many drones lost, etc.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.09.09 07:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Gsptlsnz Would someone mind confirming what this thread seems to be saying? That the OP is in an alliance/corp with lousy people who're more interested in their personal KB stats than in whether their alliance/corp does well. The OP (and others) think that lousy fleet discipline by their mates can not possibly be caused by lousy alliance/corp leadership, and therefore tries to blame something, anything, else (in this case killmails). The next will probably be a thread by the same bunch of people blaming Santa Clause, Elvis or the Tooth Fairy for their problems. It is pretty much human nature that one is unwilling to realise and admit one self might be to blame for something. Killboards are a good thing, both for good and bad alliances. For good ones, it enable FC's to optimise setups and tactics. For bad ones, it enable FC's to find which members are not working for the common good, and kick them out of their fleet/alliance/corp. To help with the last bit, I'll present an example comment from a 'good' and a 'bad' member: Good member: Damn, that was a good fight. Look at the KB stats, we killed XX battleships and only lost Y! Bad member: Damn, that was a good fight. Loot at the KB stats, I got on XX killmails in my Rifter! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.09 08:03:00 - [55] Originally by: Gefex Its the killmail's themselves, they need to be refactored to take other things into account like assisting with remote reps, or like you say a 7 gun ship attacking 7 targets. ECM jams, damping or any other ewar that got applied. A proper battle statistic system to replace killmails would be awesome. As for rubbish k/d ratio, its a fallacy, you can have someone who lost a Titan and has killed thousands of ships still be in the major negatives. On the same token you can have someone who has never lost a ship that managed to ***** on a few killmails here and there by playing docking games in empire have a positive. Which is the better PvPer? Perfectly put. Main problem with killmails and therefore K/D and ISK destroyed/lost ratios is that all you have to do to be on a killmail is something offensive towards a target, even if it's so inconsequential as to be meaningless. And conversely you could remote-rep your friends to keep them alive and not be considered as an "involved party" in a kill, when clearly you were. Basically killmails are broken and anyone who relies on them as an absolute measure of skill are dumb.

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