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Monkiboy
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:09:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Monkiboy on 20/10/2004 23:12:35
Edited by: Monkiboy on 20/10/2004 23:12:02
I think this is one of the worst patches ever. I certainly hope this isnt an indicator of where this game is headed to.
Eve appears to be well on the way to patched oblivion like MMORPG's such as Ultima Online. Ok, buggy- but at least it was fun. When you remove elements that were fun in the game because you never intended them to be features- yes- you might be making eve your George Lucas like original vision- but it takes away play styles from players.
Release a product, customers game the product to do the most they can possibly do within the permissable realms. Then when your customers find a way to do something you didnt anticipate:
1) Ban them
or
2) Nerf it
That's how you make a great game mediocre.
Hiya- are you a type 1 raven? or a type 2? If you're a type 2, I'm going to go and have to go get my type 2 raven back at the station.
Rock, paper - no scissors required.
It's not like fitting 2 MWD's didnt come at extreme cost, and it was a mathematical certainty, and so are their limitations. This nerf makes no sense.
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Monkiboy
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:09:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Monkiboy on 20/10/2004 23:12:35
Edited by: Monkiboy on 20/10/2004 23:12:02
I think this is one of the worst patches ever. I certainly hope this isnt an indicator of where this game is headed to.
Eve appears to be well on the way to patched oblivion like MMORPG's such as Ultima Online. Ok, buggy- but at least it was fun. When you remove elements that were fun in the game because you never intended them to be features- yes- you might be making eve your George Lucas like original vision- but it takes away play styles from players.
Release a product, customers game the product to do the most they can possibly do within the permissable realms. Then when your customers find a way to do something you didnt anticipate:
1) Ban them
or
2) Nerf it
That's how you make a great game mediocre.
Hiya- are you a type 1 raven? or a type 2? If you're a type 2, I'm going to go and have to go get my type 2 raven back at the station.
Rock, paper - no scissors required.
It's not like fitting 2 MWD's didnt come at extreme cost, and it was a mathematical certainty, and so are their limitations. This nerf makes no sense.
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Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:14:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Don't get too excited.
the current release of Shiva has a nasty cap bug.
My Crow, for example, currently has only one bar of cap whereas it normally has 3 bars.
This could be why Bad'Boy could not activate his 2nd MWD and the "missing resource" is actually cap?
Doubt so, since iirc the message specifically mentions the missing resource is taken by the other MWD. Meaning there's a check for its presence, as opposed to generic "got cap?" test...
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Arvalen Eno
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:14:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Don't get too excited.
the current release of Shiva has a nasty cap bug.
My Crow, for example, currently has only one bar of cap whereas it normally has 3 bars.
This could be why Bad'Boy could not activate his 2nd MWD and the "missing resource" is actually cap?
Doubt so, since iirc the message specifically mentions the missing resource is taken by the other MWD. Meaning there's a check for its presence, as opposed to generic "got cap?" test...
"Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate... hate leads to nerfs." |
Canis Lupus
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:28:00 -
[35]
Monkiboy- I'm only saying this because you seem really intelligent.
I like your response, I agree with it entirely, and I only came here to read this crap because my corp-mates were talking about it.
That being said, leave. Just leave. Don't bother reading this and don't bother replying.
Why? Simple. Most people here have their own ideas for where they want the game to go. Nevermind what it is, it's all about what it can become. They can't camp a gate a certain way, or they can't make their frigates take down this particular cruiser. Maybe they can't carry enough stuff -- or they don't like that someone else can carry so much.
They claim that the game is 'out of balance' with some vestige of comparing the game to real life or perhaps glossing over the idea that a player with lots experience points, using the same tactics, will -always- STOMP on a new player. Balance? Ohh ... not balance, just .. 'more balance' ie: more in their favor vs. someone elses.
In the end, there's two types of players I've found in this game:
3. Those that work with the system through creativity and resourcefulness. They remain quiet, dislike the bads and enjoy the goods. They (like me) often find ways of sacrificing much in a ship layout to be very strong in a narrow focus. That way when the situation is in their favor they will likely win against an opponant very quickly. They spend much time learning these tactics and implimenting them. Months, often .. getting the xp points in the subset of skills necessary. Then- when the game changes they're left with nothing they understand or can work with, and are faced with either re-learning the game as new or quitting. Some come on here and complain that they're going to quit. Some actually do. But since noone on here that posts regularly could care about people leaving besides maybe their own corp members, it's not like anyone notices.
2. Those that whine and conmplain and want the system to be made easier for them, nevermind what ideas anyone else has thought of- it isn't theirs and they want to be original. They can't live with a game that hasn't been taylored to their needs. So the game MUST be changed, else they're quitting.
Just my opinion here.
And my extreme displeasure in the cookie-cutter design that this game is going towards. Just as you say. Raven type 1, Raven type 2.
Intelligence and creativity: by nature this is a minority. Since the game caters to the lowest common denominator, it's no surprise to see that minoritys voice being ignored completely.
Just a hint here: The game didn't start out this way. And that's what attracted everyone and got many folks addicted to the game. So much personalization, so much customization. So much creativity. Slowly but surely .. all that gets weeded out to get the most $$$ flowing in from dumb people who just want instant gratification without patience.
So make sure to take notice of the things you enjoying dissapearing ... and when it's not fun anymore-- leave.
[BTLS] Canis Lupus
Military Lt. General
- "I was around before all the dummies became mans best friend." |
Canis Lupus
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Posted - 2004.10.20 23:28:00 -
[36]
Monkiboy- I'm only saying this because you seem really intelligent.
I like your response, I agree with it entirely, and I only came here to read this crap because my corp-mates were talking about it.
That being said, leave. Just leave. Don't bother reading this and don't bother replying.
Why? Simple. Most people here have their own ideas for where they want the game to go. Nevermind what it is, it's all about what it can become. They can't camp a gate a certain way, or they can't make their frigates take down this particular cruiser. Maybe they can't carry enough stuff -- or they don't like that someone else can carry so much.
They claim that the game is 'out of balance' with some vestige of comparing the game to real life or perhaps glossing over the idea that a player with lots experience points, using the same tactics, will -always- STOMP on a new player. Balance? Ohh ... not balance, just .. 'more balance' ie: more in their favor vs. someone elses.
In the end, there's two types of players I've found in this game:
3. Those that work with the system through creativity and resourcefulness. They remain quiet, dislike the bads and enjoy the goods. They (like me) often find ways of sacrificing much in a ship layout to be very strong in a narrow focus. That way when the situation is in their favor they will likely win against an opponant very quickly. They spend much time learning these tactics and implimenting them. Months, often .. getting the xp points in the subset of skills necessary. Then- when the game changes they're left with nothing they understand or can work with, and are faced with either re-learning the game as new or quitting. Some come on here and complain that they're going to quit. Some actually do. But since noone on here that posts regularly could care about people leaving besides maybe their own corp members, it's not like anyone notices.
2. Those that whine and conmplain and want the system to be made easier for them, nevermind what ideas anyone else has thought of- it isn't theirs and they want to be original. They can't live with a game that hasn't been taylored to their needs. So the game MUST be changed, else they're quitting.
Just my opinion here.
And my extreme displeasure in the cookie-cutter design that this game is going towards. Just as you say. Raven type 1, Raven type 2.
Intelligence and creativity: by nature this is a minority. Since the game caters to the lowest common denominator, it's no surprise to see that minoritys voice being ignored completely.
Just a hint here: The game didn't start out this way. And that's what attracted everyone and got many folks addicted to the game. So much personalization, so much customization. So much creativity. Slowly but surely .. all that gets weeded out to get the most $$$ flowing in from dumb people who just want instant gratification without patience.
So make sure to take notice of the things you enjoying dissapearing ... and when it's not fun anymore-- leave.
[BTLS] Canis Lupus
Military Lt. General
- "I was around before all the dummies became mans best friend." |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.10.21 03:43:00 -
[37]
This isin't about nerfing traveling lol.
It's about having 1 ship that can run 3000m/s while running all weapons.
Anyways.
Better solution = 2 mwds deactivate your hi slots. Travelers can travel.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.10.21 03:43:00 -
[38]
This isin't about nerfing traveling lol.
It's about having 1 ship that can run 3000m/s while running all weapons.
Anyways.
Better solution = 2 mwds deactivate your hi slots. Travelers can travel.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Harry MacDougal
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Posted - 2004.10.21 05:37:00 -
[39]
Oversized stuff is perfectly fair, as is dual MWDs. You have to make sacrifices to use them. So I don't agree that the sacrifices for the MWDs actually make a difference, the point being that they should remove the ability, just change the drawbacks. I have a 100mn AB on my rupture. When its there, I have almost NO offensive abilities. i pretty much have it there to help with mining. You want bigger guns, or burners, or whatever, it comes at a cost. So those people who can't figure out how to get around the costs, or do it themselves, or who want that ultimate fighting platform, stop *****ing when someone smarter than you comes up with a clever idea that works with the system.
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Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Spy, wrecking for 411.2 damage. |
Harry MacDougal
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Posted - 2004.10.21 05:37:00 -
[40]
Oversized stuff is perfectly fair, as is dual MWDs. You have to make sacrifices to use them. So I don't agree that the sacrifices for the MWDs actually make a difference, the point being that they should remove the ability, just change the drawbacks. I have a 100mn AB on my rupture. When its there, I have almost NO offensive abilities. i pretty much have it there to help with mining. You want bigger guns, or burners, or whatever, it comes at a cost. So those people who can't figure out how to get around the costs, or do it themselves, or who want that ultimate fighting platform, stop *****ing when someone smarter than you comes up with a clever idea that works with the system.
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Your 720mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Spy, wrecking for 411.2 damage. |
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Andarvi
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Posted - 2004.10.21 05:46:00 -
[41]
The main problem is not speed per se. What makes 2xMWD (or oversized AB+MWD) ships so 'unfair' is the always hitting nature of missiles. You get a ship that is very difficult to stop and hit, while it can hit you just fine.
So good job CCP.
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Andarvi
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Posted - 2004.10.21 05:46:00 -
[42]
The main problem is not speed per se. What makes 2xMWD (or oversized AB+MWD) ships so 'unfair' is the always hitting nature of missiles. You get a ship that is very difficult to stop and hit, while it can hit you just fine.
So good job CCP.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:32:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Harry MacDougal
Oversized stuff is perfectly fair, as is dual MWDs. You have to make sacrifices to use them.
What does a Dual-MWD Raven sacrifice exactly? offense? not much of it. Defense? well, they can't shield tank, but thier mass mean that you can't stop them with a single web, as their mass would put them outside web range without them losing much speed... That makes them pretty much immune to turrets, and totally immune to missiles.
Same about dual-mwd ruptures or equivalent. Try to kill something with the resistance of a cruiser, significative weaponry and a 7.5km/s sutainable speed and you'll see if it's balanced.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:32:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Harry MacDougal
Oversized stuff is perfectly fair, as is dual MWDs. You have to make sacrifices to use them.
What does a Dual-MWD Raven sacrifice exactly? offense? not much of it. Defense? well, they can't shield tank, but thier mass mean that you can't stop them with a single web, as their mass would put them outside web range without them losing much speed... That makes them pretty much immune to turrets, and totally immune to missiles.
Same about dual-mwd ruptures or equivalent. Try to kill something with the resistance of a cruiser, significative weaponry and a 7.5km/s sutainable speed and you'll see if it's balanced.
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Redon
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:35:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Redon on 21/10/2004 06:39:44
im realy ****ed at losing the option to fit my ship how i want to, but since ccp is bent on nerfing everything that we come up with then why not also go ahead and nerf gank ship
(gankgeddons, gankapoc, & gankthrons) you should not be able to put more then 3 damage
mods and 3 tracking enhancers on total. i mean its only fair. you take away a certain groups way of killing things and you leave another groups way of killing things unnerfed? doesnt
seem balanced at all to me. i would realy like to now how some devs or gms feels about what i have said.
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Redon
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:35:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Redon on 21/10/2004 06:39:44
im realy ****ed at losing the option to fit my ship how i want to, but since ccp is bent on nerfing everything that we come up with then why not also go ahead and nerf gank ship
(gankgeddons, gankapoc, & gankthrons) you should not be able to put more then 3 damage
mods and 3 tracking enhancers on total. i mean its only fair. you take away a certain groups way of killing things and you leave another groups way of killing things unnerfed? doesnt
seem balanced at all to me. i would realy like to now how some devs or gms feels about what i have said.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:40:00 -
[47]
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it. 
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Seleene
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Posted - 2004.10.21 06:40:00 -
[48]
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it.
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Seleene
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it.
dont see how Ravens offence is punched much when you fit Dual MWD
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Seleene
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it.
dont see how Ravens offence is punched much when you fit Dual MWD
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:12:00 -
[51]
Quote:
but since ccp is bent on nerfing everything that we come up with then why not also go ahead and nerf gank ship
They did, Redon, quite heavily with the stacking nerf.
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BobGhengisKhan
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:12:00 -
[52]
Quote:
but since ccp is bent on nerfing everything that we come up with then why not also go ahead and nerf gank ship
They did, Redon, quite heavily with the stacking nerf.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
Originally by: Seleene
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it.
dont see how Ravens offence is punched much when you fit Dual MWD
I concur, my duel mwd raven setup is sweet, too sweet, who cares about cap or shield, you aint gonna get hit. They try jamming you just mwd out or warp/ in/out. Even with the sig radius penalty, your still too fast to be hit by turrets. Basically speed rocks especially when used along with weapons that require no tracking.
And to those whinging about gank setups for eg, please, those setups have BIG disadvantages. The disadvantages of a duel mwd rig are next to nothing in most situations.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
Originally by: Seleene
Sorry... but I think this is crap. Why? Fitting two MWD's nerfs your shields and cap to a point where your offensive punch is limited and speed becomes your only defense. It's a trade-off. I just don't think this was 'broken', hence I see no need to fix it.
dont see how Ravens offence is punched much when you fit Dual MWD
I concur, my duel mwd raven setup is sweet, too sweet, who cares about cap or shield, you aint gonna get hit. They try jamming you just mwd out or warp/ in/out. Even with the sig radius penalty, your still too fast to be hit by turrets. Basically speed rocks especially when used along with weapons that require no tracking.
And to those whinging about gank setups for eg, please, those setups have BIG disadvantages. The disadvantages of a duel mwd rig are next to nothing in most situations.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:41:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Hakera on 21/10/2004 07:46:47
but I am all for a more balanced solution where speed is not so necessary for survival or avoiding damage.
ie...
missile dmg nerf proportional to sig radius
duel mwd rig impossible for combat
projectile boost
sensor damp/tracking disruptor nerf
ab boost to say ~80-100%
class restriction on mwd's/ab's
of course I believe speed is essential for travelling and I support Prophetguru's idea for duel mwd to be allowed but for to disable your high slots for duration. A slight change but a more acceptable one for those who use duel mwd's just for travelling.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:41:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Hakera on 21/10/2004 07:46:47
but I am all for a more balanced solution where speed is not so necessary for survival or avoiding damage.
ie...
missile dmg nerf proportional to sig radius
duel mwd rig impossible for combat
projectile boost
sensor damp/tracking disruptor nerf
ab boost to say ~80-100%
class restriction on mwd's/ab's
of course I believe speed is essential for travelling and I support Prophetguru's idea for duel mwd to be allowed but for to disable your high slots for duration. A slight change but a more acceptable one for those who use duel mwd's just for travelling.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hakera
I concur, my duel mwd raven setup is sweet, too sweet, who cares about cap or shield, you aint gonna get hit. They try jamming you just mwd out or warp/ in/out. Even with the sig radius penalty, your still too fast to be hit by turrets. Basically speed rocks especially when used along with weapons that require no tracking.
And to those whinging about gank setups for eg, please, those setups have BIG disadvantages. The disadvantages of a duel mwd rig are next to nothing in most situations.
As long as their is a counter there is no imbalance.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.10.21 07:51:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hakera
I concur, my duel mwd raven setup is sweet, too sweet, who cares about cap or shield, you aint gonna get hit. They try jamming you just mwd out or warp/ in/out. Even with the sig radius penalty, your still too fast to be hit by turrets. Basically speed rocks especially when used along with weapons that require no tracking.
And to those whinging about gank setups for eg, please, those setups have BIG disadvantages. The disadvantages of a duel mwd rig are next to nothing in most situations.
As long as their is a counter there is no imbalance.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Seleene
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Posted - 2004.10.21 08:08:00 -
[59]
I agree that on the Raven the advantages outweight the disadvantages. I just don't think this nerf is something NEEDED. I think twin-MWD ships are just fine, whether I have to fight them or I'm flying them myself. I can't really say it more simply.
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Seleene
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Posted - 2004.10.21 08:08:00 -
[60]
I agree that on the Raven the advantages outweight the disadvantages. I just don't think this nerf is something NEEDED. I think twin-MWD ships are just fine, whether I have to fight them or I'm flying them myself. I can't really say it more simply.
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T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
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