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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:18:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Marko Riva on 13/09/2009 13:19:21
Might replace one of the hardeners with a shield amp but that fit does make a whole lot of sense even though it's tank is a bit on the light side (I like to have a bit of extra 'meat' on the tank) but it'll take down the smaller stuff quite well so you probably won't get any tanking problems to begin with.
If you're in a mission where you NEED more tank simply switch out the SB for an XL and replace the DCU with a co-pro, less efficient but more brute tanking.
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Jazmyn Stone
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:21:00 -
[32]
This set-up has worked very well for me:
CNR:
3 X CCC
7 X Cruise Launcer II
Drone Link or Dim. NOS or empty
Thon's X-L SB or Pithi A X-L SB, (sometimes a Dread LSB)
CN SB amp
2 X CN hardeners (mission specific)
1 X CN shield amp (mission specific)
True Sansha CR or TP II or 100AB or Sen. Bstr II (depends)
3 X BCU II or 2 X BCU II and a MSBA II (actually has helped)
2 X Beta PDS
5 X Light II Drones
5 X Med II Drones
EFT:
268hp/s on the shields, 703/1225, the booster obviously is only used when necessary
Cap is -93/+51 (stable with the Dread SB)
dmg is 675/s, 4244 volley (CN)
I've found that most of the time this is just overkill, but sure makes the missions go faster.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:27:00 -
[33]
nice, an over the top CNR fit in a Raven thread.
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Leather Jack
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:33:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/09/2009 09:30:59
My heads still not clear due to being ill but isnt 24000 shields minimum going take you over an hour to get with a large booster? Most missions with 4 damage mods takes well under 1 hour.
You seem to be slightly missinformed Pottsey and yes, EVE can be confusing sometimes.
Just wanna make sure we're all talking about the same stuff here.
Buffer Tank
Active Tank
Passive Tank
Passive tanking a BS is inferior to active tanking it.
Listen to Sturmwolke, he's really making an effort trying to explain things.
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Xionyxa
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:47:00 -
[35]
Almost as bad as the fail fit cap stable Abaddon, some frigates can do more damage than your raven, go drake if u want passive, or use them CCC rigs to make it an active tank and fit up some BCUs to it.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:51:00 -
[36]
Sturmwolke said " It's inane because :
* Your post #22 shows a distinct lack of understanding and familiarity with shield boosters by asking whether it takes an hour to boost up 24000 shields."
Yes I am unfamiliarly with shield boosters I don't use them. You could have just pointed out where I was wrong instead of having a go at me. It was clear from my post I was unsure and I was asking a question. It's like you're just trying to toll instead of help.
Asking a question on something you're unsure about as you're ill and haven't got a clear head is not inane. So I got the math very wrong, I suspected that which was why I asked the question. Somehow I got 60mins instead of 6 instead. Why not just answer the question?
Sturmwolke said " Darthewok's Darwin award winner has to run back to a station to recharge its buffer."
No he does not. I run the same type of setup on my Kronos and I never once had to run back to the star base to charge my shields up. The natural recharge more than covers you. I admit I don't fly a Raven but I fly a Kronos with tracking enhancers and damage mods in the lows and a buffer tank in the mids. If that tank works I fail to see why it wouldn't work on a Raven.
Sturmwolke said said " Your post #26 2nd paragraph shows clearly, without any doubt that you don't understand how a L4 mission is effectively run. Answer, a cap boosted (3-4 hardeners) Raven will last the mission duration, relying on both the cap boosters and its natural cap regen."
But that's what I said. I said if you stagger the shield booster then cap is ok. Its only when you don't stagger the shield booster cap is a problem. What is wrong with that? I never said it couldn't work for an lvl 4 mission. Any mission that works with a staggered shield booster is going work with a buffer tank.
Sturmwolke said " * Your post #26 1st paragraph goes off in a wild tangent taking the meaning of "speed" as a literal, forgetting the context that it was posted based on your original post #20. Answer, forget the 1st paragraph ever existed and let's get back on track."
Being able to move faster in the mission means being able to do the mission faster. I thought the context was talking about mission completion speed.
Sturmwolke said " Again, I would like to hear your words of wisdom for your claims, specifically pertaining to the underlined bits "both run missions at the same speed with the same damage output due to 4 damage mods. It doesn't matter which setup you take"."
Unless I am missing something both are the same. Both setups have 4 damage mods, both setups with your tweak can fit 1 AB or target painter. Both setups can tank the mission without a problem; both setups can fit the same weapons. So just how are they not going run the mission at anything but the same speed?
The only difference I see are the rigs and mid slots. With the rigs the passive tank can use either Rigor or Extenders and yours has either Cap or Rigor.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.13 13:58:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/09/2009 14:00:18
Leather Jack said " You seem to be slightly missinformed Pottsey and yes, EVE can be confusing sometimes."
They where comparing how long a Shield booster takes to heal the same amount of hitpoints a buffer tank has a base. If the buffer tank has 24000 shields not factoring in the HP regen on the buffer tank then the shield booster would heal 24000 hitpoints in about 6-7 minutes.
Leather Jack said "Passive tanking a BS is inferior to active tanking it."
But does it matter if both can run the missions at the same speed and both can tank the mission without a problem? I am not going argue which one is inferior only that both can do the missions.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Leather Jack
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.13 14:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Pottsey
Leather Jack said "Passive tanking a BS is inferior to active tanking it."
But does it matter if both can run the missions at the same speed and both can tank the mission without a problem? I am not going argue which one is inferior only that both can do the missions.
I dont see how a Passive Tanked Raven would run at the same speed as an Active Tanked one.
The Active Tank gets better DPS/tank ratio, thus higher DPS for the same amount of tank.
Higher DPS equals faster mission running.
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Davina Braben
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Posted - 2009.09.13 14:38:00 -
[39]
CNR works better because it has more shields.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.13 15:02:00 -
[40]
Leather Jack said "The Active Tank gets better DPS/tank ratio, thus higher DPS for the same amount of tank.
Higher DPS equals faster mission running."
But if the passive tank can max out the DPS the same as the active tank and still tank enough for missions why does it matter which you use? Does it matter if the active tank has a better DPS/tank ratio when both passive and active both have max DPS output and both tank the missions without a problem?
I find anything over 650dps tank is over tanking often I only run with a 300dps tank or a buffer and high dps output. Ok there are exceptions where you might want more than a 300dps tank but mostly that's all you need with good dps output.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Leather Jack
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.13 15:20:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Leather Jack on 13/09/2009 15:22:50
Originally by: Pottsey
But if the passive tank can max out the DPS the same as the active tank
It cant.
I'm puzzled.
Are you sure you're not talking about a Buffer tank?
EDIT: Also, OP has stated to have less than 200 DPS output, do you consider this to be high or low?
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People Eater
Brute Strength
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Posted - 2009.09.13 16:05:00 -
[42]
My very first Raven a few years was quipped with passive tank, I thought it was working well. The ship was used for a few lvl 4's, then some 0.0 ratting. Sure it worked, and at the time I thought the ship was very efficient at doing so. But as time passed I purchased another raven, fitting it for pure dps with high resistances. The passive Raven was put into it's hangar and hasn't been used since. And well, that first Raven is still sitting out in Vale somewhere being kept around for sentimental purposes
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.13 16:16:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/09/2009 16:16:46
Buffer tanks are passive tanks. HP regen setups nearly always end up boosting HP regen by boosting the buffer. It's a bit of a blurred line between the two theses days. Not like the good old days with a clear line. But still even HP regen focus passive tanks can match the DPS output of the active tank and still tank the mission. The tank might end up weaker but it still works.
200dps output is far too low unless you are doing level 1 or 2 missions. I would say 400 to 450dps output is the lowest end I would want to run a level 4 at regardless of tanking power.
I like a hybrid tank myself. On my Kronos I use Purger rigs to heal a bit between battles and gates but use shield extenders for the buffer. If I used a Raven I would most likely do the same. 4 damage mods, shield extenders and Purger rigs. An AB isnt really worth it most of the time but unsure if I would replace that with another shield extender or target painter. Dont know enough about missiles.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.09.13 18:39:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 13/09/2009 18:42:17
Originally by: Pottsey
Buffer tanks are passive tanks. HP regen setups nearly always end up boosting HP regen by boosting the buffer. It's a bit of a blurred line between the two theses days. Not like the good old days with a clear line.
It really isn't a blurred line, and you're probably the only person who doesn't distinguish between buffer shield tanks and passive shield tanks.
The difference? Purger rigs and SPRs = Passive. Extender rigs = buffer. From your post it seems that you're mixing the two, but I suspect it would work just as well with extenders.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.14 11:52:00 -
[45]
I do distinguish between buffer and HP regen tanks but the word passive tank covers both. Passive tank does not automatically mean HP regen tank. The meaning has meant both for years, as long as I can remember. The line has blurred as well. It used to be shield rechargers = HP regen tank and shield extenders = buffer tank. Now both the HP regen and buffer tank use shield extenders. With both HP regen tanks and buffer tanks now using the same mid slot module it's sometimes hard to tell which name suits the setup best. Sometimes the same setup can swap between a buffer tank or HP regen tank based on the size of the ship. In this case I would say it more a buffer tank on the Raven but the same modules on a Cruiser and it's a HP regen tank.
Gypsio III said "The difference? Purger rigs and SPRs = Passive. Extender rigs = buffer."
So what about the above Raven setup where damage rigs are used, low slots are damage mods. The only mid slot tanking module used is just as much a HP regen module as a buffer module? I would call it a buffer tank but not due to the modules used. Same modules but a different ship and you can swap the classification from buffer to HP regen. Just at what point does it stop being a buffer tank and a become HP regen tank? What about when you have 20k+ buffer with 100+ HP regen. What do you call that?
It seems wrong to me that the rigs alone determine if something is classed as a buffer or HP regen tank. Look at my Kronos it's clearly more a buffer tank but it has purger rigs. What about when 3 shield extenders give you 314 HP regen and increase your buffer by x3 do you call it a buffer tank or HP regen tank? Things like that are a blurred line to me.
It's safe to safe to say extender rigs + PDS = buffer tank/focus. SPR + Purger = HP regen tank/focus. What about when people mix Purger and extender rigs? Ok we can call them crazy. But what about people like me who mix SPR's and PDS? Is that a buffer or HP regen? What about when Purger and extender rigs are not used but the setup has a mix of HP regen and buffer modules?
For example 3 shield extneders on a Raven is a buffer tank. 3 shield extenders on a Proteus is a HP regen tank. Surly 20k+ shields without extender rigs is a buffer tank? What if it's like my Kronos or Raven with focus on the buffer tank but Purger rigs? What if its purger rigs but PDS modules? The line is blurred sometimes.
The way I see it you have passive tanking which can be further split into a focus of one of 3 things somethings with a cross over.
1. Focus on a sustainable DPS tank with resistance and hit-point regeneration either by boosting hit-points and/or speeding up shield recharge.
2. Focus on maximizing the hit-point pool which normally consists of a mix of boosting hit-points and boosting resistance to create a large hit-point pool as a buffer.
3. Cap immune ships. Can be a mix of 1 and 2 but must not use modules that drain cap. Normally they fit passive hardeners and use a weapon system that does not use cap.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.14 12:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Pottsey
Just at what point does it stop being a buffer tank and a become HP regen tank?
Essentially, when you start adding modules that affect your regen directly, rather than your buffer (with regen only being a diminishing-returns side effect).
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Xionyxa
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Posted - 2009.09.14 13:02:00 -
[47]
rofl @ the confusion in this thread
buffer fit is mainly for pvp or spider tank gangs (pvp, WHs and lvl 5s). The idea of a buffer fit is to outlast your enemies, at 173dps, he'ed need a pretty good buffer fit to last the many hours needed to clear a lvl 4 without any real recharge/repairs.
passive fit is mainly for pve, and only applys to minmatar and caldari ships, unless u are really eccentric and is based on getting the highest resists and shield hit points per second recharged. 2 things he has done wrong, 1 is choose a ship with low resists, 2 is fit CCC rigs instead of purgers, and no ballistic control units, hence why is dps isn't going to break the tank on any high bounty mission rat.
CNRs shouldn't even be talked about in this thread, it's a waste of isk going faction if u haven't even worked out how to fit a ship for lvl 4s.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.14 14:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Pottsey
Yes I am unfamiliarly with shield boosters I don't use them. You could have just pointed out where I was wrong instead of having a go at me. It was clear from my post I was unsure and I was asking a question. It's like you're just trying to toll instead of help.
Asking a question on something you're unsure about as you're ill and haven't got a clear head is not inane. So I got the math very wrong, I suspected that which was why I asked the question. Somehow I got 60mins instead of 6 instead. Why not just answer the question?
So, it's easier to post in the forum asking what 2 + 2 is when one could have just grabbed a calculator or just count one's finger?
What was the exact purpose of for that post? Whatever it was, I did you courtesy (whether you believe it or not) by not stomping on it till after you persisted with several inane posts down the road.
Originally by: Pottsey
No he does not. I run the same type of setup on my Kronos and I never once had to run back to the star base to charge my shields up. The natural recharge more than covers you. I admit I don't fly a Raven but I fly a Kronos with tracking enhancers and damage mods in the lows and a buffer tank in the mids. If that tank works I fail to see why it wouldn't work on a Raven.
So, you're basing your argument that it works on a Kronos (without even providing build details and other details), therefore it should work on a Raven? See, this is what I mean an inane post.
Originally by: Pottsey
But that's what I said. I said if you stagger the shield booster then cap is ok. Its only when you don't stagger the shield booster cap is a problem. What is wrong with that? I never said it couldn't work for an lvl 4 mission. Any mission that works with a staggered shield booster is going work with a buffer tank.
A Hvy Cap Booster II provides an average 59.3 cap/s until all 20x (15+5) Cap 800 have been used up.
An unmodified (by skill) Large Shield Booster II sucks cap at a rate of 40 cap/s = No staggering necessary.
An unmodified X-Large C5-L Shield Booster sucks cap at a rate of 80 cap /s = No staggering necessary **
** Raven's natural recharge (with 1x CCC) is between +18-22 depending on skill. It will last for up to 16 mins before staggering is necessary. By this time, all the Cap 800 would have beeen used up.
In effect, you can run the boosters continuosly until all the caps have been used up. No staggering necessary.
In real practise this doesn't happen because you'd have already killed most of the dps dealers.
Originally by: Pottsey
Being able to move faster in the mission means being able to do the mission faster. I thought the context was talking about mission completion speed.
And a Raven needs to move in missions? 90km lock range, > 200km radius cruise range
It's already been stated, an AB does have its uses, but only in certain missions.
Originally by: Pottsey
The only difference I see are the rigs and mid slots. With the rigs the passive tank can use either Rigor or Extenders and yours has either Cap or Rigor.
There are couple of things here, commenting on Darthewok's buffer build. I'll keep in short.
* 2 hardeners on his original build is just wrong. Resist holes are too large, it gets shot up fast. Minimum 3. Optimal 4.
* Being prepared to dock/undock to recharge buffer. You lose a minimum of 5 mins each time, not accounting for multi pocket missions. It adds up over time, you waste it senselessly
* Being able to fit Rigors makes a BIG difference in mission completion time after Quantum Rise missile changes last year. His buffer build needs all that Extender rigs to even stand.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.14 14:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
There are couple of things here, commenting on Darthewok's buffer build. I'll keep in short.
* Being prepared to dock/undock to recharge buffer. You lose a minimum of 5 mins each time, not accounting for multi pocket missions. It adds up over time, you waste it senselessly
? 5 minutes ? 45 seconds more like
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.14 14:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Darthewok
? 5 minutes ? 45 seconds more like
You quoted before I had a chance to correct the over estimation.
The correct time for a Raven would be in the region of 2min 45s to:
- get up to speed from 0 and warp to station (13AU away)
- dock, then undock
- warp back to single pocket location (no gates)
- re-lock targets
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2009.09.14 14:55:00 -
[51]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 14/09/2009 14:56:44
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pottsey
Just at what point does it stop being a buffer tank and a become HP regen tank?
Essentially, when you start adding modules that affect your regen directly, rather than your buffer (with regen only being a diminishing-returns side effect).
Bingo. Because technically, raised to the power of anal retentive, all ships are passive tanks.
Buffer tank: You do not rely on regeneration because you expect to take damage so quickly that regen will not be a significant factor. Normally for PvP.
Passive tank: You rely on the built-in recharge rate to regen your shields. Normally for PvE.
Active tank: You use a shield/armor/hull booster to recharge/repair your shields/armor/hull. Normally for PvE.
To get back on topic, it is possible to passive shield tank a Raven for some faction specific level 4's but the skills required to do so normally mean that you can just fit for gank instead.
This has 617 defense against Guristas and 343 gank (not including drones.) Swapping a BCS for another Shield Relay will get you 812 defense and 288 gank. With the latter, you'll survive any Guristas missions, but you'll probably need medium drones to help break the tank on some battleships. All Level 5 EFT warrioring:
[Raven, passive]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot] * Add drone range extender here
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
Large Core Defence Field Purger I
But as everyone else has been stating, active boosting is a much better choice. However, if your 'gank' skills are weak, you'll find yourself warping out if you can't kill the NPC ships fast enough. You will also want to get Tech II light drones to deal with frigates, especially the warp scrambling ones.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.14 14:57:00 -
[52]
okay possibly.
i actually like your active fit for missions where the mission rats put out under 400 DPS
Originally by: Sturmwolke
[Raven, Cap Boosted]
if you indeed did know the mission was not a tough one, i would use this fit over the buffer fit.
however, it is very common to encounter level 4 missions that put out more DPS than that. in fact some pump out 900+ DPS. that is why i use buffer tank.
it can do the missions a 400+DPS active tank cannot.
you have to warp in and out, but at least you can whittle the super tough swarms down to manageable size.
a 400DPS active tank however crashes too fast under 900+ DPS to do that.
its pros and cons really. <400 DPS probably active tank is better. but you will need to know which missions are <DPS. i bring buffer tank for any mission knowing it can handle it.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.14 15:45:00 -
[53]
Sturmwolke said ôSo, it's easier to post in the forum asking what 2 + 2 is when one could have just grabbed a calculator or just count one's finger?"
Yes it is easier to post on the forum when you're ill with an unclear head. I did try to do the math but got strange results, I must have divided something twice or some such stupid mistake. You know I was ill and was having problems thinking clearly so what you did was not offer a courtesy. Quite clearly I made a number of mistakes over the weekend when wasn't well. The purpose for that post was to find out if I was correct or not as I was unsure.
Sturmwolke said ôSo, you're basing your argument that it works on a Kronos (without even providing build details and other details), therefore it should work on a Raven?ö
Only two real things matter for Missions effective DPS tanked and effective DPS output as I am sure you know. If my Kronos has an EHP of 82k against serps and 4 damage mods then a Raven with the 105k shields and 4 damage mods should be fine as well. The principle behind both setups is the same. I don't need to provide build details to say in my experience the principle behind the idea works. I used serps as those are what I fight the most. Not 100% sure on what the lower limit is but at an educated guess anything over about 60 to 70k EHP should be enough for most if not all missions but the hardest as long as you have high DPS output and don't agro more then one group. It might not be as good as an active tank but it works.
Sturmwolke said " In effect, you can run the boosters continuosly until all the caps have been used up. No staggering necessary."
I completely agree as I made a stupid mistake when was as ill. When I worked out if the cap would hold I used the wrong cap charges. Even though you can keep the Xlarge booster running none stop that is just a waste of cap chargers. You may as well just stagger when needed. I also agree for most missions an AB does nothing to add to mission completion time. Only a handful of missions are faster with an AB. A target painter or another shield extender would be better depending on the mission.
Sturmwolke said "* 2 hardeners on his original build is just wrong. Resist holes are too large, it gets shot up fast. Minimum 3. Optimal 4."
I don't agree. Yes the shield resistance gives you more EHP but it lowers your HP regen. The extra EHP from the resistance is not really needed to survive but the extra HP regen from the shield extenders helps cut down if not eliminate most of the time the need to warp out dock and warp back in. My policy for a passive tank is 1 hardener most of the time 2 max when possible. Not that I am saying this is the best way. Just the way I perfer.
Sturmwolke said * Being prepared to dock/undock to recharge buffer. You lose a minimum of 3-5 mins each time, not accounting for multi pocket missions. It adds up over time, it is wasted senselessly."
In my experience about the only time the buffer tank has to warp out are the same situations when the active tank get swamped and that too has to warp out. I agree if your warping out constantly then the buffer is a bad idea. But if your damage is high and your aggro single groups you shouldn't be warping out.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.09.14 15:59:00 -
[54]
Sturmwolke said " * Being able to fit Rigors makes a BIG difference in mission completion time after Quantum Rise missile changes last year. His buffer build needs all that Extender rigs to even stand."
I will take your word on that as I don't use missiles. But from a tanking prospective there is no reason why it would not work without extender rigs. If I can run missions with less EHP than the raven build, then the Raven should be able to lower EHP and up damage as well. Just swap the Em and invul field for two single hardeners or two invul fields and take the extender rigs out. You still have more then enough EHP. You shouldn't have to warp out on anything but the hardest missions or unless you do something stupid like aggro every single group.
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How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Mystic5hadow
Knights of the Black Abyss
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Posted - 2009.09.14 16:19:00 -
[55]
Well, thanks for all the input guys. I'm going to keep messing around with fittings in a couple days, once I get some skills up. But I think I'll most likely be going Active Tank.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 05:26:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Darthewok
Take your pick. which is better for you is subjective.
I just don't think buffer should be written off as an option. I use it because I find the advantages to me outweigh the disadvantages.
Your playstyle and therefore the best path for you may differ.
No Darthewok. Your analyses are incorrrect.
1) What exactly are you putting in the Low slot that displaces the BCS and in your claim increase an active tank to 800-900dps? A standard X-Large C5-L fits fine with avg skills. Also, bear in mind, although sustained defence is important, burst defence takes precendence. For the case of a cap boosted active tank, both are practically about the same.
2) All L4 missions dps are aggregated over time. With enough effective firepower coming from your Raven, it gets whittled down very quickly before it can manage to overwhelm your shields. Your blanket dps figures have little meaning.
3) The handful hard missions like Smash the Suppplier, Enemies Abound 5/5, Pot and Kettle and Navy Armada are all survivable in active tanked ships.
4) You are discounting Rigor rigs which is mandatory for any serious cruise Raven L4 pilot (post Quantum Rise expansion).
5) Mission difficulty estimation comes from experience and if you don't have that, use the Eve Survival website.
6) No switching of fits? Please define. If this is regarding hardeners, please bear in mind what actually matters are the amount of slots you dedicate to hardeners. One could easily make a lazy omni-tank with 4 slots and it'll easily be superior to a 2 slots. That said, with the new fitting automation in Apocrypha expansion, there's little reason for not optimizing your hardeners to the specific NPC.
There's a fine line between "playstyle" and "steadfastly remaining in uninformed ignorance".
So be it, if you wish to follow that path.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 05:33:00 -
[57]
Ran a quick test on SISI for the Raven buffer setup.
Mission - Sansha Pirate Invasion.
Medium-Easy mission in a standard active Raven.
Setup 1 - 3x LSE II, 3x Large CDFE, 1x AB, 1x Invul II and 1x Photon II
Result : Had to warp out after killing the first 3 BS
Setup 2 - refitted Setup 1 for 2x Photon II, 1x Heat II
Result : Better endurance. Still have to warp out 2 more times.
Conclusion : Given the better scenario where 3 specific hardeners are fitted, in addition to managing aggro; you still have to warp out a minimum 3 times before finishing the pocket. Leaving shields below 20% invites the chance for armor damage, and if you're lazy to repair it on your own, the repair cost adds up over time.
----
Some notes on buffer vs active tank on paper, using my skills.
Sansha Raw damage = 2000 dps (approximately 15x Centus Tyrant BS)
Damage profle (55% EM/45% Thermal)
EM damage split = 1100 dps
Thermal damage split = 900 dps
Active Raven (XLarge C5-L, 4 hardeners, 1 DCII - Resist 79.4% EM / 83.6% Thermal)
Shield = 9000 hp
Shield recovery = 108 hp/sec
Sustained endurance = 3min 25s
Shield damage received = 374.2 dps
Shield collapses at around 30 sec.
Buffer Raven (4x LSE II, 2 hardeners, 1 DCII - Resist 60.6% EM / 68.5% Thermal)
Shield = 32851
Shield recovery (peak) = 44 shield/sec
Sustained endurance = NA
Shield damage received = 716.9 dps
Shield collapses at around 48 sec.
Buffer Raven (3x LSE II, 3 hardeners, 1 DCII - Resist 79.4% EM / 68.5% Thermal)
Shield = 28060
Shield recovery (peak) = 37 shield/sec
Sustained endurance = NA
Shield damage received = 510 dps
Shield collapses at around 55 sec.
Buffer Raven (2x LSE II, 4 hardeners, 1 DCII - Resist 79.4% EM / 83.6% Thermal)
Shield = 23269
Shield recovery (peak) = 31 shield/sec
Sustained endurance = NA
Shield damage received = 374.2 dps
Shield collapses at around 65 sec.
Something that almost never happen with L4 missions, but presented for posterity. This is the reason why a buffer setup is superior in PVP that involves medium or fleet sized engagements, but not for PVE.
Better hardening extends the shield's longevity. One of the most important aspect that lot of of people tend to forget is that resists does not work on a proportional scale. It works on an exponential scale, meaning at a resist at 90% gives 500% more protection than a resist at 50%.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 05:52:00 -
[58]
yup, exactly correct.
for medium-easy missions active>buffer.
no need to warp out.
for tough missions buffer>active
in the 2000 dps example, buffer's extra 15-30 second endurance time and 4 BCS instead of only 0-1 BCS makes all the difference.
with the passive tank and 4 BCS you can gank 1-2 BS each time then warp out and back in. soon you will have whittled the dps down to manageable level.
in comparison, the active tank's 30 seconds and 0-1 BCS means it probably cannot gank a single BS in time before having to warp out. and it is in very serious danger because active tank collapse is much more sudden than passive tank collapse.
thats why passive tanked raven can do even ridiculously difficult missions that an active tank just cannot.
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Sturmwolke
Genyosha Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 06:18:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Pottsey
Yes it is easier to post on the forum when you're ill with an unclear head. I did try to do the math but got strange results, I must have divided something twice or some such stupid mistake. You know I was ill and was having problems thinking clearly so what you did was not offer a courtesy. Quite clearly I made a number of mistakes over the weekend when wasn't well. The purpose for that post was to find out if I was correct or not as I was unsure.
Yes I believe you.
Originally by: Pottsey
Only two real things matter for Missions effective DPS tanked and effective DPS output as I am sure you know. If my Kronos has an EHP of 82k against serps and 4 damage mods then a Raven with the 105k shields and 4 damage mods should be fine as well. The principle behind both setups is the same. I don't need to provide build details to say in my experience the principle behind the idea works. I used serps as those are what I fight the most. Not 100% sure on what the lower limit is but at an educated guess anything over about 60 to 70k EHP should be enough for most if not all missions but the hardest as long as you have high DPS output and don't agro more then one group. It might not be as good as an active tank but it works.
You do of course realize that a proper fit Kronos can put out some nasty dps that can easily exceed twice that of a standard Raven? Also, you do of course realize this proportional dps increase translates into an exponential effect on how fast you can kill off the NPCs?
Before you forget, I have to remind you, we're talking about Ravens.
Originally by: Pottsey
I don't agree. Yes the shield resistance gives you more EHP but it lowers your HP regen. The extra EHP from the resistance is not really needed to survive but the extra HP regen from the shield extenders helps cut down if not eliminate most of the time the need to warp out dock and warp back in. My policy for a passive tank is 1 hardener most of the time 2 max when possible. Not that I am saying this is the best way. Just the way I perfer.
See my previous post.
Originally by: Pottsey
In my experience about the only time the buffer tank has to warp out are the same situations when the active tank get swamped and that too has to warp out. I agree if your warping out constantly then the buffer is a bad idea. But if your damage is high and your aggro single groups you shouldn't be warping out.
Raven.
Originally by: Pottsey
I will take your word on that as I don't use missiles. But from a tanking prospective there is no reason why it would not work without extender rigs. If I can run missions with less EHP than the raven build, then the Raven should be able to lower EHP and up damage as well. Just swap the Em and invul field for two single hardeners or two invul fields and take the extender rigs out. You still have more then enough EHP. You shouldn't have to warp out on anything but the hardest missions or unless you do something stupid like aggro every single group.
Raven.
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Darthewok
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 06:51:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Darthewok on 15/09/2009 06:52:38
oh yes, cap booster fit looks okay.
this is fine for missions in the same system as the agent.
reason i am reluctant to use it is because cap boosters takes up cargohold for hardeners (you have to switch out type remember) and salvage.
however for missions in systems eg 2 gates away, you would have to travel to and from the agent system and the encounter system to carry things eg necessary hardeners to and fro.
quite a hassle.
i prefer simply to bring a buffer fit that needs no adjustment and carry salvagers and tractors and cargo extenders in the hold to switch the raven to a cargohold extended salvager fit after the mission is done.
so simple - just take off in a single fit, go to encounter system, switch to salvager fit in encounter system after mission is done, salvage and return. no need to return to agent system at all until completion.
so there are hidden time savings to my using a buffer fit. so that is why i said according to playstyle.
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