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Vyktor Abyss Gallente The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:32:00 - [61] Originally by: Kersh Marelor Originally by: Melos Tellemey It's entire purpose is to help is understand the logic behind the changes, and Why it is changing. The question remains: who cares? Some pilots would like to get ready and prepared for whatever change may come. Here comes a dev blog supposedely dealing with the issues and giving some answers... only it gives us absolutely nothing just more guessing games and speculation. Ergo: worthless fail blog. Actually Kersh if you read the majority of comments people do care, and the informative blog is CCP coherently communicating with its player community about its upcoming plans for the game, even if you choose to ingore the given information and don't like the level of detail. Though I see you're probably the type who only likes blogs that say specifics like "Go buy salvage now!!"...To which I bet you run to the market to trade and speculate...But yeah thems the bestest ones... the ones that tell you how to get rich... There's no pleasing some people. <shakes head>
McQuack	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:35:00 - [62] yeah many ppl will be replaced with tons of bots
Stuart Bruegel Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Kersh Marelor Originally by: Melos Tellemey It's entire purpose is to help is understand the logic behind the changes, and Why it is changing. The question remains: who cares? Some pilots would like to get ready and prepared for whatever change may come. Here comes a dev blog supposedely dealing with the issues and giving some answers... only it gives us absolutely nothing just more guessing games and speculation. Ergo: worthless fail blog. That's not entirely true if the goal of the blog was to elicit a reaction from the player base. If you disagree with something Greyscale said, now's the time to say so. If you didn't have any objections and just want details, wait for them - they'll come. My guess is that by stating their goals, Greyscale is trying to use this as a public litmus test to determine if they've misinterpreted what the player base wants. It doesn't do them a lot of good to start dumping specifics of how they're planning on implementing it if 90% of us don't agree with the "why" behind the "how". Based on the reaction so far, I'd have to say that's not the case. Sounds a lot more like people are interested in the details because they're at least somewhat interested in the concept that's been laid out being successfully implemented. And, if I had to guess, that's what Greyscale was looking for. That's not to say that the "how" won't have problems (I'm sure it will), but by posting the "why" ahead of time, you can separate the means from the end so that it can be debated without diving into minutiae. I don't blame anyone for being irritated that they can't just dump the details on us now, but I can see why they don't. The change they're contemplating is potentially game-ending for them (if they really misread the player base) and I'm pretty sure they want to be as deliberate about it as they can be. Or I hope that's the case anyway. If they're winging it, they're really screwed. My $0.02
Kersh Marelor Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:37:00 - [64] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Though I see you're probably the type who only likes blogs that say specifics like "Go buy salvage now!!"...<shakes head> Not really. Would love to get some details as to how sov changes hands, rather than just getting to know it is going to be 'descriptive'. The thought process involved in coming to ideas on how to change null-sec is surely interesting but the players intersted in the game mechanics already know how 0.0 works and we've been hearing about why and what CCP wants to change for the past few weeks. We still have no information on how they want to do it.
Raivi Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:39:00 - [65] I liked this blog a lot. Shows that CCP has a good grasp of the factors in play in 0.0 and what needs to be done. I'm eager to hear more about the specific implementation and I'm a bit worried, as CCP has messed up the details of their grand ideas many times in the past. That being said, I think you guys are getting a lot better at it lately, so I'll have some faith. A change in the moon mineral market that will reduce the price of moongoo as well as reducing the price of tech two equipment is simply good game design, and anyone who thinks that PL isn't prepared for this will have a rude surprise. ---------------------------------------------
Weaselior GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Raivi I liked this blog a lot. Shows that CCP has a good grasp of the factors in play in 0.0 and what needs to be done. I'm eager to hear more about the specific implementation and I'm a bit worried, as CCP has messed up the details of their grand ideas many times in the past. That being said, I think you guys are getting a lot better at it lately, so I'll have some faith. A change in the moon mineral market that will reduce the price of moongoo as well as reducing the price of tech two equipment is simply good game design, and anyone who thinks that PL isn't prepared for this will have a rude surprise. Tech II stuff besides ships is way too cheap, not too expensive. Mods are basically worthless (ship prices are good though). Sig removed, inappropriate content - Mitnal
SharpMango 14th Legion	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:49:00 - [67] I am not so sure i like the idea of codifying 'renting'. Sure it already happens right now, but is only a market solution to a broken game mechanic. If renting is not officially allowed, instead we will have more dynamic power structures. We are not rebuilding eve, we already have vast military alliances with vast economic power. To enable renting will forever solidify their stranglehold on systems. It would be a much richer and more rewarding experience to allow alliances to develop systems and to be forced to have the social nous to be able to maintain those relationships and hence the value of those systems. Truth be told, when i first came to eve, i had hoped that systems would naturally develop organically. i was very disappointed to discover that most of null sec is empty. imagine a patchwork of mini-states, each holding onto singular star systems, highly developed, with other nation state style solar systems next door... each solar system supporting 10-20 people online minimum during the day.. Would that not be great? A race to develop economic might and develop resources of a system whilst coping with the very real threat of enemy attack and sabotage of ones resources. The game im referring to is not Eve, but it would be a great internet spaceship game
Ancy Denaries Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:57:00 - [68] I'm at a loss of words. This sounds seriously massively awesome. Can't wait to see this implemented to see where it takes us. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die.
Vyktor Abyss Gallente The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:00:00 - [69] Originally by: Kersh Marelor Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Though I see you're probably the type who only likes blogs that say specifics like "Go buy salvage now!!"...<shakes head> Not really. Would love to get some details as to how sov changes hands, rather than just getting to know it is going to be 'descriptive'. The thought process involved in coming to ideas on how to change null-sec is surely interesting but the players intersted in the game mechanics already know how 0.0 works and we've been hearing about why and what CCP wants to change for the past few weeks. We still have no information on how they want to do it. Fair comment, sorry if I lumped you in with the wrong crowd. I'd like to know the details too, but you just have to be patient. Just because they wrote this blog doesn't mean they can't / won't write another blog tomorrow with more detail. I get the feeling CCP is outlining the overall future of 0.0 here, because the changes may be quite radical over time, not just what will happen this winter expansion, and pinning themselves to an impossible workload that the players crucify them for (a la WIS) would be a mistake. I'd rather they took their time and got it right. For me (and probably a few older, slightly disillusioned players like me) this blog is more important than specifics because it outlines their vision which restores some of my waning faith in their "plan".
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:05:00 - [70] Originally by: CCP Greyscale ...because we obviously have to be careful not to ruin the gameplay for everyone in empire by accident... ...Alliances hold vast tracts of space that they have no actual use for, simply because they can, locking out other groups from using it. CCP Greyscale perfectly strikes your preception of the game, wrecking for OMGWTF damage. I wanted to write an emorage post after the words "reduce the amount of income that can be derived from mining moons" and "...idea that the more people are using a system, the more money it'll make you" but now I think it may be a good plan. I really hope you know what you are doing. Maybe it would be worth it to ask a question: how are you going to promote "small-fleet combat" and increase population density at the same time?
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:10:00 - [71] Absolutely loving where this is going. I'm with a few others here in terms of wondering how it's going to be delivered and am sceptical about it at the moment. However ... I'm assuming there will be a blog fairly soon regarding what/how you are able to upgrade your space? This is what most interests me. Also loving how this is going to screw MM, PL, Goons, etc., etc. Smaller corps and stuff FTW! _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
KuKu Lula	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:14:00 - [72] Edited by: KuKu Lula on 15/09/2009 00:15:08 Originally by: Gripen Maybe it would be worth it to ask a question: how are you going to promote "small-fleet combat" and increase population density at the same time? qft; new regions needed. Moar space to accomadate all these new players you want to bring out. New regions long overdue as is. People still need buffer space.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:17:00 - [73] Originally by: Weaselior Tech II stuff besides ships is way too cheap, not too expensive. Mods are basically worthless (ship prices are good though). Disagree completely. Bring back the days of early-mid 2008. I know of many that are less willing to even consider PVP because the continuous rise of t2 mods. As the PL character said - making what is the 'vanilla' or 'bread and butter' of PVP cheaper is just good game design. _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Kersh Marelor Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:18:00 - [74] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I get the feeling CCP is outlining the overall future of 0.0 here, because the changes may be quite radical over time, not just what will happen this winter expansion, and pinning themselves to an impossible workload that the players crucify them for (a la WIS) would be a mistake. I'd rather they took their time and got it right. That is understandable, although seeing that it is supposed to be winter expansion then maybe middle of September is tad late to start explaining the 'whys', it is high time for the 'hows' to not only make it for before 2010 with anything at all but maybe grab some player's feedback on the way. Now we really have nothing to give feedback about. Yeah POS bashing is boring; yeah resources in null-sec are disproportined; yeah people are scarred of big evul alliances holding vast areas of space; yeah big evul aalinces hold cvast areas of space cause the game mechanics force them to do so. All that has been established and is recognized as the problem of sov - how is planing to fix it without killing the game? Originally by: Vyktor Abyss For me (and probably a few older, slightly disillusioned players like me) this blog is more important than specifics because it outlines their vision which restores some of my waning faith in their "plan". Well... I lost that faith long ago and this 'coming-out' of CCP Greyscale did nothing to restore it ;)
Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:19:00 - [75] Originally by: SyntaxPD I don't care about t2 economy. It's already broken by bpo holders. You obviously have no clue as to how the modern T2 market works. This blog was interesting in the concepts offered, but it was all flash and no substance in terms of actual changes, at least in terms of what's already been presented. Should be interesting to see how things pan out...I hope they start testing on SiSi soon if they want to be ready to roll it out by november.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:23:00 - [76] Originally by: KuKu Lula Edited by: KuKu Lula on 15/09/2009 00:15:08 Originally by: Gripen Maybe it would be worth it to ask a question: how are you going to promote "small-fleet combat" and increase population density at the same time? qft; new regions needed. Moar space to accomadate all these new players you want to bring out. New regions long overdue as is. People still need buffer space. At both: having to roam less to find someone/something to shoot at in a small gang is better, yes? It's been a long time since I've lived in 0.0, tbh, so no 'real' idea. _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Gripen Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:43:00 - [77] Originally by: Franga Originally by: KuKu Lula Originally by: Gripen Maybe it would be worth it to ask a question: how are you going to promote "small-fleet combat" and increase population density at the same time? qft; new regions needed. Moar space to accomadate all these new players you want to bring out. New regions long overdue as is. People still need buffer space. At both: having to roam less to find someone/something to shoot at in a small gang is better, yes? It's been a long time since I've lived in 0.0, tbh, so no 'real' idea. Imagine PvE focused but active alliance with about 200 people online which used to control 2 regions. In Dominion it will shrink down to a single constellation and if you come there with your 15-man roaming gang they'll all dock their PvE ships and undock 200 PvP battleships. Good luck and have fun =) The only thing I can think of which will help here is removal of local.
De'Vadder Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:48:00 - [78] Im driven by two questions. Will upgrades vanish when the sov switches? Or will space just improve and improve? Or will the stuff 'wither' if not paid for or something like that? And, more importantly, will there be something to prevent the days of complete Chaos that will come after all cynojammers will be disabled, all sov will be lost and towers wont need to be shot? Im sure that many many alliances are already piling their ships for that day. Thats actually what i like the most about the new expansion comming. Chaos and relentless war. And why is there still nothing that sets content apart from signature? Is that intentional or technically imposible?
Sponde	Posted - 2009.09.15 00:56:00 - [79] Interesting blog. I agree that something new and innovative must be done to tackle the root of the problem in 0.0. With that being said however my question is what is the mechanism to control the increasing profitability of "upgraded space"? My understanding is that each solar system has the ability to be as profitable as the next. Therefore there are a couple of possibilities: 1) that the maximum revenue that can be achieved from an updraded system is vastly less than what is currently available in a sytem with an R64 moon/conglomerate area of space with a single R64 moon 2) that the number of isk sinkholes required to upgrade a system to yield what an R64 moon currently can will counter balance the isk it produces in a perpetual manner. If this is the case it be pointless to upgrade the systems so I doubt it would be CCP's strategy. 3) that there will be an initial startup cost to "upgrade" systems will be significant and in essence "perpetual" in the sense that each time a system is taken it will need to invested in. So in esence I'd like to understand if there will be too many isk faucets in the new model and not enough sink holes
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:05:00 - [80] Originally by: Gripen Imagine PvE focused but active alliance with about 200 people online which used to control 2 regions. In Dominion it will shrink down to a single constellation and if you come there with your 15-man roaming gang they'll all dock their PvE ships and undock 200 PvP battleships. Good luck and have fun =) The only thing I can think of which will help here is removal of local. k, so you think everywhere will be turned into CVA space? _____________________________ Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
Bow'ma Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:28:00 - [81] Very interesting, looking forward to more details. Your knowledge of the how and why 0.0 is stagnant as hell is impressive. The only thing I find worrying is that you want more people in 0.0 (more people in a system equals more profit), I like the emptiness/exclusiveness. I can already foresee Jita style market places and Motsu mission running hubs. Only this time alliances can move the agents around when they decide to upgrade a neighboring system. As for combat, more people in 1 system (for more profit) isn't that going to make blobbing even a more common thing to do? Looking forward to this expension so much, thats for sure :)
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:31:00 - [82] Sounds pretty good to me. CCP proves they listen and the stagnant 0.0 environment needs to be shaken up and turned back into a hotbed of competing ideologies and player led empires. Will be nice to see nullsec as a place worth visiting again 3rd Forces in FW - discuss!
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:31:00 - [83] Quote: Firstly, let people upgrade their space, and in particular its resource density. By increasing the resource density, you increase the potential population density, and by letting players do it rather than simply seeding more resources, you open up more decisions and more emergence. Sweet. Specifics? Upgrade to get merx in the belt in ec-p8r? Upgrade quality of rats? More plexes? Or just the AMOUNT of roids in the belts? Quote: Secondly, reduce the amount of income that can be derived from mining moons. In conjuction with the first change, this means that the best way to raise funds for an alliance will once again be to fill your space with as many people as possible, upgrade your space as much as possible and watch the money roll in. Outright nerf on r64? In the context of being "secondly" it almost sounds like you are upgrading your moon minerals to be less. Sounds backwards? Quote: This serves several masters. It gets more people into nullsec - one of our objectives - by making big alliances want more people in their space As opposed to the current system which compares Alliance [X] to the number in fleet. They actively tries to find those not in the fleet. Then penalizing them into sending them back to empire? Hell I even ran my alliance with a system of 100% tax to get participation... but I found that this moreso only forces people to stop playing entirely. Which makes the game not fun. So there was still an unspoken push toward making people pvpers only in 0.0 The belts and plexes are thusly untouched unless you play 12 hours a day and outperform the fcs. They get tired and then you can go ratting. Except an alliance run off that method quickly burns out. You will gain in the short run massive success; in return after X time. You burn out and cant go anymore. Nerfing the rich moons is epic. I wonder how you presume to do this? Change the reactions? Create more rich moons? Open up highsec moon mining? Quote: It makes it much harder to be a big, rich, military alliance; rather, things should move more back towards the old dichotomy between big rich carebear alliances and smaller, poorer military alliances, because history (both in EVE and in the real world) shows that badass military organizations can't handle crop rotation without going soft and squishy The funny thing is that in the new system. There will be a consistent like 40% tax or higher to pay for the military side using carebears. Which I think is great. Afterall most of the big countries IRL have like 50% tax. This new system in theory will be very cool. IF it works out well. With the currently broken bug report system; not to mention sisi rules possibily hindering. We may not discover it to be working all that well. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Jonathan Mcarthur Caldari GK inc.	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:34:00 - [84] Originally by: Jade Constantine Sounds pretty good to me. CCP proves they listen and the stagnant 0.0 environment needs to be shaken up and turned back into a hotbed of competing ideologies and player led empires. Will be nice to see nullsec as a place worth visiting again Jade actually writes 2 - 3 sentence posts!
Jordan Musgrat H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:39:00 - [85] Originally by: Gripen Imagine PvE focused but active alliance with about 200 people online which used to control 2 regions. In Dominion it will shrink down to a single constellation and if you come there with your 15-man roaming gang they'll all dock their PvE ships and undock 200 PvP battleships. Good luck and have fun =) The only thing I can think of which will help here is removal of local. If you've done any roaming at all, you should know that the more squishy carebears you stuff in 1 system up until over maybe 10-15 actives, the greater chances there are of one of them being ******ed and warping to planets at 0 or gates just to get away from you. Plus, greater density of people in certain areas means that in other areas, you're much less likely to run into massive roaming gangs that will slaughter yours, as some space should be relatively unclaimed now. We'll have to see how the implementation goes though. ----------- Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0...
Serpents smile	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:48:00 - [86] This is the first time I got interested in 0.0. Having said that, and yes we have way too little details now, the idea of having big alliances renting their worthless space to new people so they can upgrade that place sounds very interesting. But why would I go there, put a lot of work and effort into upgrading the worthless space into something less worthless then get clubbed to death by my own 'landlord', who says, 'thank you I'll take that upgraded moon from you, now beat it! ' After all this is EVE.
teji Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:49:00 - [87] Originally by: Jason Edwards The funny thing is that in the new system. There will be a consistent like 40% tax or higher to pay for the military side using carebears. Which I think is great. Afterall most of the big countries IRL have like 50% tax. If there is 50% tax rates for 0.0 it's all the more reason to mission on an OOC alt in empire. That would be hilarious to destroy even further 0.0 ratting. Also 50% tax IRL lol. Canada?
Cur Minmatar Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:52:00 - [88] Looks promising, but it's easy to see many pitfalls. I hope your development tools allow a little bit more creativity when tackling the sovereignty warfare and resource/population density issues.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:53:00 - [89] Greyscale- REALLY well written. Three iterations really paid off. Concise, informative and powerful. While 90% of the posts are complaining about 'no content' I think that blogs like this are exceptionally important as they reveal to the player base that CCP's decisions aren't something that are completely random and poorly planned. Personally I found the blog really insightful and thought it explained a lot of the planning and thought that is going into the future game design of Eve. I can't wait to see what the future will bring with respect to the new sov changes. It'll be most interesting to me to see how CCP deals with the issue of botting and so forth as a replacement to moon mining. But again, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Excellent blog. Well worth the effort. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Tier 5 Battleships
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:57:00 - [90] CCP, The choice between Descriptive and Prescriptive Game play ... it's going to need both. For one, as stated, the ping pong game. And secondly, there should be more to conquest than simply holding the field at the end of a battle. Many times through history this has been shown to be the case, though one side may win most of the battles, it does not mean it will win the war. "Sovereignty" needs two layers. On the top, the descriptive layer, where an alliance can plant its flag. The under layer will need to be more prescriptive, and the expression of this layer could be "legitimacy". As a quick example - an Army marches on a city and takes it over, they hoist their flag. But they do not have legitimacy over the population of that city. The population is hostile to the new "government". Only after many years can the new government claim any sort of legitimacy. And only then can the full productive fruits of the population be realized. Should the previous government return to reclaim and fight for the city, before the new government has legitimacy, the population may very well rise up against the occupiers. Wait 1000 years, though and the population won't care so much. We know Dust is coming, and we know there are habitable planets. These planets would logically have some sort of population. I would suggest that, "legitimacy" can be built up over time, simply as a result of having planted the flag. The less legitimacy an alliance has over a system, the more it would cost to maintain that system, or at least the fewer resources it would give, and the more difficult it would be to defend that system against the previous holders, the "legitimate" alliance. Legitimacy is earned over lengthy periods of time and does not reverse quickly. I can think of a few ways to do this, but won't ramble, and let you CCP guys do your thing. Have fun :) The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)

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