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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.09.15 19:31:00 -
[1]
So what I understand of the new sov system:
* Moons will be worth much less.
* There will be an upkeep cost on your sov systems that gets more expensive the more systems you have.
* Systems will be upgradeable to allow for more players in the same system.
The main idea here being that
1. it should be hard to hold large areas of space that you aren't using anyway.
2. an empire should be run with income from actual work, not from passive moons.
3. that industrialists should provide this income to keep the PvP wings alive.
So what do people think about this? Is this what's going to happen or will the current alliances just trudge on and keep people out from 0.0 as it has always been?
Will alliances accept carebears into their space, or maybe even search for carebears? (have to split income with carebears but will still have a military might)
Or will alliances upgrade their space and then just farm it themselves, not letting any carebears in? (don't have to split income but will have to let their garde down, potentially becoming soft)
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.15 19:37:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Daedalus II
3. that industrialists should provide this income to keep the PvP wings alive.
I imagine that this will effectively be the long awaited industry buff to put them back in the spotlight and main reason for a successful territory holding corp or alliance being successful. Passive moon income funding lulz cap fleets for lulz moon mining pos bashes are now history. 
Quote:
[03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA
[03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.09.15 19:38:00 -
[3]
ALTS!!!
Just use the new boom of resources to buy PLEX for an alt.
No they will not let new carebears out there, it will still be good ole NBSI.
But... they may let loose some of their systems to reduce upkeep costs, and the carebears maybe able to move in there
Pick Three:
Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:12:00 -
[4]
Undefended carebears will never be able to move in anywhere in 0.0, especially not sov 0.0.
The best they can hope for is to ninja into some place, hide when it gets hot, and for people to not come bother them much or run them over.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:17:00 -
[5]
my question - how are they going to increase the carrying capacity of any given system?
Add belts?
Increase plex spawn rates?
Increase rat/roid spawn rates?
Or, is it just as infrastructure goes up, moon minerals get better (or more?..both?), allowing the people who actually own the system (not the pvp grunts >.> ) to divvy out money to people?
Im hoping its some combination of 1 and 3 really.
Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Or, is it just as infrastructure goes up, moon minerals get better (or more?..both?), allowing the people who actually own the system (not the pvp grunts >.> ) to divvy out money to people?
With the advent of an honest to god system wide industrial infrastructure a corp will be able to produce everything the pvp guys need without having to run to empire for every little thing. Hopefully they won't scam thier own corp mates and will sell to them at cost or just above though I'm sure there will be scams. There are always scams.
Quote:
[03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA
[03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
Proto TC
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:24:00 -
[7]
Not from personal experience.
What I have heard from others is that a carebear in null space is nothing more then an indentured slave nowdays.
Back in the BoB days industrialist got paid for producing war materials for the military wings.
Today, indentured slaves fuel POSes and mine fuel. They also produce ships and components on command from alliance overlords. If industrialists do not comply, they are kicked out of their established area.
Very sad existence indeed. I applaud CCP for trying to return EVE to some resemblance to RL where you can't have a military might without a strong economy. (Wait a second, does finance count as strong economy?)
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Or, is it just as infrastructure goes up, moon minerals get better (or more?..both?), allowing the people who actually own the system (not the pvp grunts >.> ) to divvy out money to people?
With the advent of an honest to god system wide industrial infrastructure a corp will be able to produce everything the pvp guys need without having to run to empire for every little thing. Hopefully they won't scam thier own corp mates and will sell to them at cost or just above though I'm sure there will be scams. There are always scams.
Exactly. The pvp guys will get the worse end of the deal - welcome to capitalism. Rich get richer, poor stay poor.
Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. LAnce is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daedealus II
So what do people think about this?
Ten page comment thread of what people think, attached to the official devblog.
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: Daedealus II
So what do people think about this?
Ten page comment thread of what people think, attached to the official devblog.
Believe it or not, but I actually read that blog before I posted this, wierd huh?
The reason I made a new thread about it is that I want to know from some real PvP guys (I'm a carebear myself) if they think this is going to work or not. If they think the new mechanics are actually getting carbears to become something else than a slave or lower for a PvPer.
I would really love to see that PvP would need some dedicated industrialists instead of just the PvPers own alts and dyspro moons. Seeing a shift from using your big idle fleet to kick on the small alliances, to using it to defend your large soft industrial section that you need to survive.
That's what I wish, but being a carebear I don't know if that's what's going to happen, thus I ask here.
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Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Daedalus II
The reason I made a new thread about it is that I want to know from some real PvP guys (I'm a carebear myself) if they think this is going to work or not.
I don't think so, and here's why:
- There is a common, but bizarre perception that 0.0 alliances are run by big dumb peeveepee'ers who have no idea how to run industry. The reality couldn't be further from the truth. Most solid 0.0 alliances have a strong backbone here. Just the logistics behind POS and fuelling would probably leave your average "I'm a SMART carebear"s head spinning.
- Related: Holding space requires effort. Real effort. THIS is the reason carebears don't come to 0.0. Not because of gatecamps or some hidden super entity which prevents people from getting a foothold. As long as there is a mechanism where people have to put forth real effort and risk real loss, carebears will lose to alliance people. It's really that simple. You may choose to believe that because you're a miner who lives in empire and I'm a pvp'er that somehow you're smarter or more dedicated than me. And I use "me" in the general sense of a space-holding entity. But you'd almost certainly be wrong.
In short : as long as real effort and real risk are required, then may the best man win. But that's the way it already is! There is no magic wand in the world they can wave which suddenly makes the dedicated hardcore types suddenly less capable of dominating than a bunch of guys who are up to this point too "afraid" to come try.
Numbers, dedication, organization and brains will pretty much always beat out those who get physically ill when they lose a T1 cruiser.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr
Lollipops for Rancors
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:21:00 -
[12]
I think you'd be surprised how many PvPers have industry alts.
Also bearing in mind the wealth that the larger corps have they can buy characters with the skills they need. |
Iva Soreass
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:24:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Dominion new sov, going to change anything?
Yep...Sov. |
Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:27:00 -
[14]
Well I don't think PvPers are stupid. I know PvPers that do as much on their industrial alt in a week that I do in half a year (given I don't take the game that serously  ).
When you know that is going on you feel pretty insignificant as a high sec carebear because you know that if your standard PvPer makes that huge amount of isk, what the hell are you going to be able to provide them?
However I think this is structure wrong. Logically you would see expert PvPers doing what they are best at, and them being supported by expert industrialists doing what they are best at. Now the PvPers are doing all this by themselves.
So how do they have time with this? Maybe they don't have enough PvP to do, so they get free time on their hands?
Wouldn't it be better then that the PvPers do what they think is fun: constant PvPing, while the industrialists do what they think is fun: constant PvEing.
The industrialists should support the PvPers by paying high taxes, and in return they should get protection from PvPers. As it is now PvPers mostly do stuff for lulz. They seldom have to fight to survive, and if they have to do that it's probably too late anyway. Therefore they don't need help from any stinking industrialists, they can generate all the income they want by themselves during all that free time they have.
Well I don't know. Obviously people don't think that is very fun as the current system now is about to change. CCP shows that they want more industry out in 0.0 to liven the place up, but the PvPers seem to want everything to stay EXACTLY as it is now, but still complain about how mindnumblingly boring it is to shoot POSes.
Maybe you have to let the carbears in to actually have some real fun again? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Malcanis on 15/09/2009 21:43:40
Remember that PvPers dont think of wealth as ISK so much as assets. A "rich" PvPer might have 50 mill in his wallet but a dozen fitted combat ships ready to use.
Alliances will still only want to see people in their space who are going to contribute. Building ships and selling them at 20% above empire isn't "contributing". For your average PvPer, seeing 0.0 industrialists whine about being "indentured servants" because they dont get paid to make ships is pretty annoying; PvPers dont get paid either; in fact they generally have to pay for the privilege of supporting the alliance, and pay dearly, both in in ISK, assets and time. While the 'bears whine about not being paid to make ISK off their alliance mates who are protecting them.
Pretty quickly, the PvPers realise it's easier to skill up an alt for jump freighters and simply pay empire prices for imported equipment, while keeping the good rats for themselves.
If you want to be welcomed in the alliance, you have to produce & sell at below empire prices. Quite a lot below. After all, you have access to all those high end ores and such, you can anchor POS to your heart's content (the more the better, kthx), you have preferential access to station facilities. How come you cant hugely undercut the guys in empire who are looking to screw every ISK out of the buyer and who have to scrabble for station production lines, pay extra overheads for POS, import high ends, etc?
And if you can't - or wont - then what good are you? You're the equivalent of a PvPer who loses more ships than he kills, or just never turns up for ops. A liability. A PvPer like that will generally get kicked sooner or later; why shouldn't a non-producing 'bear get the same treatment?
So the next time you complain about spending a weekend on an alliance mining op to make ships for "free" like a "slave", remember you're complaining to guys who spent their weekends doing endless POS ops, gatecamps and fleetfights, also for "free".
TL;DR: Ask not what you alliance can do for you, but what you can do for your alliance.
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Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:45:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mskpath3 on 15/09/2009 21:47:09
Originally by: Daedalus II
However I think this is structure wrong. Logically you would see expert PvPers doing what they are best at, and them being supported by expert industrialists doing what they are best at. Now the PvPers are doing all this by themselves.
That may make logical sense, but here's what happens in reality. If you're in an alliance where the miners and industrials become essentially slaves to build the pvp'ers ships and all the pvp'ers have to do is go kill stuff, you create a TON of resentment. It just never works. Think about it - you're a miner and you have to sit there an pour all your output so that some dude can just fly around 24/7 doing -exactly- what he likes. Yes, you may enjoy mining, but believe you me - almost no one enjoys mining and seeing all of their effort disappear entirely. Not very equitable. Hence, alliances tend to strike a balance. Corp mineral purchase plans with some form of minimum participation levels. For pvp'ers, partial ship replacement subsidies with some form of minimum participation levels in ops.
Starting to sound like pvp/carebear cooperation is a necessity already, doesn't it?
Again, I'll reiterate my definition of carebear. It's not "miner" or "industrialist". Far from it. It's "someone who is nearly 100% risk averse and will simply not fight ever". These guys already don't live in 0.0 and pretty much can't be enticed to.
Originally by: Daedalus II
The industrialists should support the PvPers by paying high taxes, and in return they should get protection from PvPers.
This already happens. Some alliances have different requirements for different corps. Ie, you may join an alliance as a pure industry corp with no pvp requirements, but you must pay X, build Y, etc. Again, don't make the mistake of thinking it's all mouth-breathers out here :)
Originally by: Daedalus II
Maybe you have to let the carbears in to actually have some real fun again?
But I'll reiterate. There are (by your definition) carebears out here already. In vast numbers. And they're having a great time mining, seeding markets, running trade routes to empire. For real. All the time.
These players are not super risk-averse. That's all there is to it.
Those that are super risk-averse, peering into 0.0 but afraid to come in have to realize that 0.0 is going to continue to be 0.0, with all it's warp bubbles roaming gangs, afk cloakers, whatever. No incentive in the world, save near complete safety, is going to change their psychological make up.
I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing to be either way. It's simply how it is.
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Mskpath3
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:55:00 -
[17]
I suppose of course that they could just swing the warhammer and through hard mechanics -force- certain things to happen. But that would be ultra un-Eve and would be a massive turnoff.
There are basically two remaining pvp-with-consequences games in the world. Eve and UO. Eve is a superset of UO because of the sovereignty and empire mechanics, and is therefore something truly special.
To ruin it with locked-down mechanics would be a real shame. I'm pretty sure CCP is aware of this and wouldn't go that far.
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MollyPuss
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:56:00 -
[18]
Holding space requires effort, skill and TIME and a very understanding gf or wife. On another toon I spent a good 4 years out in 0.0. I accumulated massive wealth and did a huge amount of different things. PVP and industrial. Buying and selling. Gate camps, roaming frig gangs, capital ship battles even shared a dysp moon with another player lol. Back then though I was off work due to illness and was bed ridden for a year and not able to work for two. I had few real life commitments. Today I have a job where mentally I have to be at the top of my game.
My weekends are filled by spending time with my super hot girlfriend. The only thing I really have time for in eve at the moment is to do a little bit of trading and run some missions. I would never begrudge anyone holding 0.0 space because I know how much dedication and time it takes. I still watch local to this day even though currently i'm in a noob corp in empire a habit i just can't seem to break lol
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:56:00 -
[19]
Ok so if I rephrase my original question:
Do you think there will be more industrialists (not carebears) in 0.0 after these sov changes?
Will 0.0 corps be more open to industrialists in their ranks (obviously they already exists, but I'd like to say that's an exception rather than a rule)?
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Daedalus II
Ok so if I rephrase my original question:
Do you think there will be more industrialists (not carebears) in 0.0 after these sov changes?
Will 0.0 corps be more open to industrialists in their ranks (obviously they already exists, but I'd like to say that's an exception rather than a rule)?
Maybe, Not enough information @ this point int time to say one way or the other.
But by the sounds of it Alliances that have a some industrial alts or otherwise will be better off.
But still no way of knowing till the mechanics are released and everyone can see what will be required, everything else is just conjecture.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Soporo on 15/09/2009 22:46:53
The dev stated that they wanted to try and mitigate time zone problems, alarm clock ops, etc , but still want to make it so lazy/inactive corps suffer somehow and active corps do better.
MY question would be: How tf are they going to manage this you reckon?
edit: Empire people are forgetting alts, as has been stated. Every cap pilot I ever knew has at least one and usually more alts. Every 0.0 guy I ever knew had at least one and usually 2 alts. A 5000 man Alliance is not 5000 men, anywhere.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Daedalus II
The reason I made a new thread about it is that I want to know from some real PvP guys
Ofcourse, I forgot. They're so stupid they can't find the comments thread. Good job you're here!
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Avoida
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Soporo
Edited by: Soporo on 15/09/2009 22:46:53
The dev stated that they wanted to try and mitigate time zone problems, alarm clock ops, etc , but still want to make it so lazy/inactive corps suffer somehow and active corps do better.
MY question would be: How tf are they going to manage this you reckon?
The time zone problem was (in my opinion) a direct result of the reinforced timer. Everyone in 0.0 knows that a given tower in a given sovereignty level will have a maximum reinforced timer of XdYhZm. Attackers could kite towers to manipulate the reinforce timer to best suit their timezone and defenders could adjust strontium levels to counteract that. In the end, however, you had a specific date and time that could not be altered. There was nothing else to do but wait.
What could replace it is a more fluid set of events all taking place simultaneously at various locations throughout the contested system that gradually change things over time and whoever is more adept at manipulating those influences wins the sovereignty change. There was a referenced to a "sovereignty flag" and "sovereignty disruptor" which, I'm guessing, work to counteract each other. Combine those with other 'disruptive' activities (which could potentially be countered simultaneously by 'supportive' activities and you get a fluid back and forth ebb and flow. Eventually, something will tip the scale but it won't be a concrete and markable moment on a calendar like a POS coming out of reinforced.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Daedalus II
Ok so if I rephrase my original question:
Do you think there will be more industrialists (not carebears) in 0.0 after these sov changes?
Will 0.0 corps be more open to industrialists in their ranks (obviously they already exists, but I'd like to say that's an exception rather than a rule)?
Oh definitely.
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Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:00:00 -
[25]
When will this change take place?
___________________________________________________
Idea: Train 3 alts at the same time solution. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:02:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Daedalus II
* Moons will be worth much less.
*
Wrong, you are going to see a huge influx of moon minerals as large alliances will need to find a way to pay for all their new toys and gate maitenance. Which also means a lot of t2 prices will come down too.
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WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls. |
Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Undefended carebears will never be able to move in anywhere in 0.0, especially not sov 0.0.
The best they can hope for is to ninja into some place, hide when it gets hot, and for people to not come bother them much or run them over.
Oh? I hear NC got some carbears in it 
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:43:00 -
[28]
Ok here is something else I have heard:
What if the large alliances just let sov drop in all but a few core systems that they upgrade heavily? Then they just lash out on anyone that comes too close. That way they keep the costs down significantly while not having to change too much from how they work today.
Will this be possible or will it be prevented with the new mechanic?
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Corelous Alterrian
Amarr
Beyond Evil and Good
United Star Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:08:00 -
[29]
Whats going to be funny is when everyone logs in after the patch and no one has sov because they don't have the mod in place for it, The wars will be great the CAP fleets will be destroyed and many of the "Big" alliance will fall to trying to hold space in syndicate. Get ready for the most Epic "WHINE" threads after that day
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Corelous Alterrian
Whats going to be funny is when everyone logs in after the patch and no one has sov because they don't have the mod in place for it, The wars will be great the CAP fleets will be destroyed and many of the "Big" alliance will fall to trying to hold space in syndicate. Get ready for the most Epic "WHINE" threads after that day
You sound a little optimistic.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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