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Dominion new sov, going to change anything?

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Lord Windu Echelon Warfare Unit	Posted - 2009.09.16 08:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Corelous Alterrian Whats going to be funny is when everyone logs in after the patch and no one has sov because they don't have the mod in place for it, The wars will be great the CAP fleets will be destroyed and many of the "Big" alliance will fall to trying to hold space in syndicate. Get ready for the most Epic "WHINE" threads after that day Or CCP will release the Sov modules before the main expansion release so that alliances can have them in place and active ready for the switch-over with mechanics worked in so that they can only be put up by an alliance that already holds the system.
Mallikanth	Posted - 2009.09.16 09:06:00 - [32] Add more guesswork here. It's impossible to say what will, and far too easy to say what may, happen. We'll just await the blogs. As for feedback, comments and ideas - that's what This Thread is about.
Melor Rend	Posted - 2009.09.16 10:03:00 - [33] Edited by: Melor Rend on 16/09/2009 10:05:25 Originally by: Daedalus II The reason I made a new thread about it is that I want to know from some real PvP guys (I'm a carebear myself) if they think this specific mechanic is going to work or not. If they think the new mechanics are actually getting carbears to become something else than a slave or lower in the eyes of a PvPer. I would really love to see that PvP would need some dedicated industrialists instead of just the PvPers own alts and dyspro moons. Seeing a shift from using your big idle fleet to kick on the small alliances, to using it to defend your large soft industrial section that you need to survive. What you are describing here is already the case. Any alliance that isn't wiped out during their first war will have some form of industrial backend (or be exploiting 10/10 plexes bugged overseer respawn caughcaugh). They are already protected by the PvPers and in return supply the alliance with the equipment and ships they need to take and hold space and protect the industrial guys. People that are not willing to take any risks (empire carebears) won't want to take any risks after the sov changes either. So I doubt this will change much. You're acting like there was something stopping the carebears from going to 0.0 - this is not the case. They simply have to join an alliance and be willing to take a certain risk (the risk of living in 0.0). They are only though of as lowlifes because they hang around in empire all day instead of actually playing EVE as it was intended. As soon as they join up and start pulling their weight (either by building ships, fueling POS, mining or PvPing) they can get just as much respect as anyone else (except of course from some IQ 50 imbeciles that forgot know who built l33t-ship).
Cybelee Caldari The Ancient One's The Firm.	Posted - 2009.09.16 10:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Lance Fighter my question - how are they going to increase the carrying capacity of any given system? Add belts? Increase plex spawn rates? Increase rat/roid spawn rates? Or, is it just as infrastructure goes up, moon minerals get better (or more?..both?), allowing the people who actually own the system (not the pvp grunts >.> ) to divvy out money to people? Im hoping its some combination of 1 and 3 really. Qouted from this blog, http://www.eve-online-fan.co.uk/2009/09/sovereignty-breaking-the-chains/ The idea is that some areas of space are obviously considered of less worth than others and always have been. This is going to change. YOU are going to change it. Through the investment of time, money and effort at all levels, an alliance will be able to directly affect the value of and develop the space they hold. This will consist of things as simple as investing in improvements that allow your members to discover new riches in systems long thought barren and useless. The resources were always æout thereÆ, hidden or out of sight, and now you will have the tools to access them. Other developmental areas will concern the expansion and efficiency of your industrial base. Creator of http://www.eve-online-fan.co.uk and http://www.dust514-fan.co.uk
Trind2222 Amarr The Red Ring	Posted - 2009.09.16 10:41:00 - [35] I hope it will be good for pvp specialy for corps who likes raid 0.0 A new outcast for say it so. Hope they make limit fo hov many cyno jammers a alliance can have. ____________ Wrangler comes back out wearing his wizard hat and robe Wrangler: Hail and well met from Blizzard, how might I assist you?
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.16 11:18:00 - [36] Originally by: Melor Rend Edit: and the fact that most PvPers have alts is also logical... If you have the choice between inviting a pure PvPer or a PvPer with an industrial alt then the choice is pretty clear... I think the problem is actually that many empire carebears only want to go to 0.0 so they can get rich and not because they want to invest their time and energy into something bigger then themselves. And those are the sort of people that are disliked by the PvPers. Why should we put our ships on the line to defend a bunch of leechers that keep 95% of all the ISK for themselves? But if they pull their weight then I don't think anyone will whine. Why can't an empire carebear both go to 0.0 and be rich but at the same time support the alliance he's working under? If we say that he can potentially make twice as much isk in 0.0 than he can in empire and then give 50% of that extra isk to the alliance both come out ahead? Given that he will use up resources in the alliance star systems that the PvPers could use themselves, but if the systems were upgraded to such a level where all the PvPers can't use all of it, wouldn't it be better then to let in some industrialists that then produce pure isk straight into the alliance without the PvPers having to bother? Even if there isn't enough resources to both support all PvPers + the industrialists, couldn't it be good to have industrialists work there anyway, paying with the time they put in. An industrialist might not be an as efficient isk generator for an alliance as a PvPer, BUT the industrialist doesn't "incapacitate" one PvPer while he works, which means that one PvPer is essentially "freed up" for each industrialist that works in his place. So you either get a very effective isk generation / system usage, but at the cost of lowered PvP readiness, or you get a less effective isk generation, but keep a high PvP readiness. Sounds like a viable choice to me? But the question is; is this how a 0.0 alliance would see it?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.16 12:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Melor Rend Edit: and the fact that most PvPers have alts is also logical... If you have the choice between inviting a pure PvPer or a PvPer with an industrial alt then the choice is pretty clear... I think the problem is actually that many empire carebears only want to go to 0.0 so they can get rich and not because they want to invest their time and energy into something bigger then themselves. And those are the sort of people that are disliked by the PvPers. Why should we put our ships on the line to defend a bunch of leechers that keep 95% of all the ISK for themselves? But if they pull their weight then I don't think anyone will whine. Why can't an empire carebear both go to 0.0 and be rich but at the same time support the alliance he's working under? If we say that he can potentially make twice as much isk in 0.0 than he can in empire and then give 50% of that extra isk to the alliance both come out ahead? Given that he will use up resources in the alliance star systems that the PvPers could use themselves, but if the systems were upgraded to such a level where all the PvPers can't use all of it, wouldn't it be better then to let in some industrialists that then produce pure isk straight into the alliance without the PvPers having to bother? Even if there isn't enough resources to both support all PvPers + the industrialists, couldn't it be good to have industrialists work there anyway, paying with the time they put in. An industrialist might not be an as efficient isk generator for an alliance as a PvPer, BUT the industrialist doesn't "incapacitate" one PvPer while he works, which means that one PvPer is essentially "freed up" for each industrialist that works in his place. So you either get a very effective isk generation / system usage, but at the cost of lowered PvP readiness, or you get a less effective isk generation, but keep a high PvP readiness. Sounds like a viable choice to me? But the question is; is this how a 0.0 alliance would see it? Again, the issue is Jump Freighters (and ofc carriers for ships). The PvPers can use a JF alt to make a few runs a month in their spare time (PvPers dont spend every second in fleet, even if they want to) and import everything they need at empire price plus fuel costs. No need to share resources, no need to deal with the extra security risks, no PvPer vs bear drama. The prospective industrialist must be able to order a better deal than they can get already in order to be considered as a member or tenant. As a rough guide, you'd be talking at least a 25% discount on supplying ships and 50% discount on ammo/modules.
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.16 14:15:00 - [38] So generally the supply lines are to simple to do? Jumpfreighters do seem to have been a step backwards tbh. I can understand that it was very appreciated for the refueling of a gazillion POSes, but in this expansion they start to seem like a hindrance for full time industrialists instead, making supplying too easy when all those POSes aren't needed anymore. Industrialist stuff seems to be too easy to do while offline too, which means that PvPers can produce a significant income even though they still put most of their time towards PvP. When I started playing EVE I had grand visions of huge convoys trucking through the lawlessness of deep space protected by a smaller fleet to refuel some empire far far away. From time to time a pirate group would emerge to try to destroy a freighter or two, but be run away by the protection fleet. But after a while I came to the cold realization that this isn't economically viable and there are much easier ways to haul stuff than to put together a huge fleet of freighters + escort. I think that is sad. I would love to see huge convoys as the sole means to keep a nullsec empire alive, but I realize that will probably never happen. I think CCP makes this game to easy for the individual player with lots of isk (and I say that even though I myself often play alone). A single player is almost always better off alone in pretty much any area of the game apart from PvP. Every time you bring someone else into your business deal, you essentially cut your own profits in half. There is no incentive to work together at all, rather the other way around. To outsource something usually just mean that you lose profit yourself.
Okonaa	Posted - 2009.09.16 14:33:00 - [39] carebears will afk mine while playing dust on consoles to hold sov.
tookar Amarr Accipiter raiding inc	Posted - 2009.09.16 15:55:00 - [40] A Lot of people who I would consider to be pvpers also have industry trained up, or have alts. I know my main can. fly pretty much any combat ship out there, a freighter, a hulk and great manufacturing skills. At the moment i can make more money ratting in sov space than by lvl 4 missions or 0.0 mining. If the industrial aspects of dominion are very good and makes activities such as mining and exploration more profitable, most of the pvpers and their alts do it themselves, and just get richer and so don't need as much space/ fly bigger shinier ships. There's nothing stopping industrialists moving to 0.0 now. But a LOT of people get annoyed when there are miners sitting in a belt making money while everyone else is out protecting your space. I have yet to come across a miner/builder who doesn't make a profit of some sort from selling things to alliance at low rates. There's already more resources to do things with than in empire at the moment, so you sell in bulk. Or buy a JF.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.09.16 19:06:00 - [41] Originally by: tookar I have yet to come across a miner/builder who doesn't make a profit of some sort from selling things to alliance at low rates. There's already more resources to do things with than in empire at the moment, so you sell in bulk. Or buy a JF. That latter part is the economist part that bites you. Right now, 0.0 logistics with jump ships is both easy and cheap. I know that a carrier jump run from our region to Empire runs around 9 million ISK. So, you mine, you build you invent. But you don't sell to your corpies (other than maybe due to loyalty/friendship). No. You haul it to Jita. You don't mine a huge amount of stuff and sell it easy and local to make your ISK in volume. No. You haul it all to Jita - and sell it in the same volume for much higher rates. The big bear in 0.0 industry is the ease and lack of expense of logistics. As long as that remains, it will be cheaper to be part of the more profitable Empire marketplace then to create a market in 0.0. Basic economics, really. We'll see if the enhanced systems will change that at all. I suspect it won't this time around. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:44:00 - [42] Originally by: Daedalus II So generally the supply lines are to simple to do? Jumpfreighters do seem to have been a step backwards tbh. I can understand that it was very appreciated for the refueling of a gazillion POSes, but in this expansion they start to seem like a hindrance for full time industrialists instead, making supplying too easy when all those POSes aren't needed anymore. Oh yes, very much so. Now go suggest a change to this situation and enjoy your newfound status as an "idiot basement-dwelling piwat gankbear".... A year ago, I initiated a discussion about this, although motivated under different circumstances. No real consensus was reached other than that you'd have to add new space really far away - with a large belt of widely space systes such that 1 jump = 1 cyno jump to even start creating an area of 0.0 that was substantially economically independant of hi-sec. The alternative - to reduce or pay for with taxation that VAST subsidy that empire industrialists get - would not, I suspect be popular. I refer of course to CONCORD protection. It's one of the ironies of EvE that anything that makes a profession easier also tends to reduce the profitability. Because then, you know, any noob, bot or alt can do it.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.16 23:37:00 - [43] The best part of Dominion will be the massive ISK sink introduced by holding sov, if CCP does it wisely, that is. It's be a great way to remove billions from the economy on a continuous basis. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Mskpath3	Posted - 2009.09.17 00:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Daedalus II Why can't an empire carebear both go to 0.0 and be rich but at the same time support the alliance he's working under? If we say that he can potentially make twice as much isk in 0.0 than he can in empire and then give 50% of that extra isk to the alliance both come out ahead? You can! My friend, as we're trying to tell you - THIS IS ALREADY THE CASE. Actually, it's even better than 50/50, by quite a bit. All these weird barriers to entry that people seem to perceive really aren't there. This is the point we're making. These opportunities already exist. In better form than you're imagining might come with Dominion. Seriously, just cruise the recruitment forum. The bottom line remains the same - empire carebears are empire carebears because they are risk averse. They will never come out because the effort and potential loss is far too great. There is no magic boogeyman preventing you from doing all these perceived fun things right this very day. This is why everyone is going to be disappointed once they get over their "YEAH! Screw the big alliances who are just a bunch of jocks!". And let's be honest, that's the real mindset we're talking about here, right? The more correct view would be to view the alliances as a professional business. Casuals and amateurs will never compete with professionals.
m3rb3aSt Minmatar Advanced Component Research Enterprise GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.17 01:06:00 - [45] the only issue with moons are the R64s lemme tell you, my sylramic fiber and tungsten carbide chains aren't bringing in the big bucks, that is for sure
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.09.17 03:35:00 - [46] What I've NEVER understood is given Eve Online' unique skill training scheme why people believe that a competant hulk/orca pilot with high to excellent refining rates can't POSSIBLY fit a battlecruiser or higher using a T2 fit. I think the best alliances don't recognise characters/people as either industrial OR combat pilot, but they meld and cross train to be great at one and pretty damn good at the other. If an alliance wants to divide in to two then they should do that and that way the ISK can flow properly. It's not like the indi characters sit spinning their ships docked up while the build jobs are getting done is it. Well some do of course, but they're not actually worth having anyway. I for one look forward to the coming changes in this winter upgrade AND the summer upgrade should be pretty interesting to see as well. Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.17 11:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Mskpath3 Originally by: Daedalus II Why can't an empire carebear both go to 0.0 and be rich but at the same time support the alliance he's working under? If we say that he can potentially make twice as much isk in 0.0 than he can in empire and then give 50% of that extra isk to the alliance both come out ahead? You can! My friend, as we're trying to tell you - THIS IS ALREADY THE CASE. Actually, it's even better than 50/50, by quite a bit. All these weird barriers to entry that people seem to perceive really aren't there. This is the point we're making. These opportunities already exist. In better form than you're imagining might come with Dominion. Seriously, just cruise the recruitment forum. Well I beg to differ, just look at the post before this post: Quote: I think the best alliances don't recognise characters/people as either industrial OR combat pilot, but they meld and cross train to be great at one and pretty damn good at the other. If an alliance wants to divide in to two then they should do that and that way the ISK can flow properly. It's not like the indi characters sit spinning their ships docked up while the build jobs are getting done is it. Well some do of course, but they're not actually worth having anyway. Generally meaning: "If you don't do both PvP and industry we see you as a leech and don't want to have anything to do with you, you're worth less than nothing to us". And if I look at the recruitment forums all I see is: PvPer needed, needs a gazillion skill points and a killboard that is at least one kilometer long. No one EVER asks for a pure industrialist. You have to do PvP to be seen as valuable. If you only do industry they don't want to have anything to do with you.
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.09.17 12:28:00 - [48] Daedalus II - You've quoted PART of my post, but the most important bit was the first paragraph. The explaining that in this with its unique skill training progression that you can do and BE both a combat pilot AND a tech 2, capital or outpost builder. The only limit is that you can pretty much do only one thing at a time. It's a brave pilot that will be in combat while adding manufacturing/research jobs to the pile :D The barrier of entry to 0.0 isn't actually that high for most alliances, it's more to do with mindset and your own character. I love the new changes and think that it could make things even better for those that want to go to 0.0 and set up a home base, however they have neglected to see another reason why some people won't be going to zero zero and that is to do with the annoying politics of the whole damn thing, which put me off and hasn't changed in all this time. Eve-online Industrial Organiser thread t1 & t2 batch manufacturing
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.17 19:14:00 - [49] Originally by: F'nog The best part of Dominion will be the massive ISK sink introduced by holding sov, if CCP does it wisely, that is. It's be a great way to remove billions from the economy on a continuous basis. Unlike the astounding ISK sink of the current POS requirements?
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.17 19:20:00 - [50] Originally by: Daedalus II Generally meaning: "If you don't do both PvP and industry we see you as a leech and don't want to have anything to do with you, you're worth less than nothing to us". Well yes, that's true. Because there are any number of "pure industrialists" in hi-sec to whom all the production work can be effectively subcontracted. A "pure industrialist" who was willing to devote the majority of his time to furthering alliance goals would be a valuable asset. Sadly, few such exist, so that those few pretty much have to gain their bona fides through PvP, and then phase in the industrial part. It's not elitism, it's not bad attitude. It is, as said above, simply business. A high overhead, high risk, high investment part of the business has been outsourced.
Dalek Commander	Posted - 2009.09.17 19:48:00 - [51] From what I understand the devs are trying to put into place a more substantial way to make treaties. One would hope that charging rent will be tied to these treaties, and this will allow the mega alliances to sublet out portions of their space to smaller entities. Think of it as the Legion/Shadows of xxDeathxx way of doing things, but on a grander scale. This will be how the empire carebears might find their way out to 0.0 space. Just don't make the mistake of thinking you're safe, and/or someone will come save your stupid PVE fitted ship when you get jumped by a roaming gang. Nullsec is harsh, but hey risk -vs- reward right?
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:51:00 - [52] Edited by: Daedalus II on 17/09/2009 20:53:26 Originally by: Dalek Commander From what I understand the devs are trying to put into place a more substantial way to make treaties. One would hope that charging rent will be tied to these treaties, and this will allow the mega alliances to sublet out portions of their space to smaller entities. Think of it as the Legion/Shadows of xxDeathxx way of doing things, but on a grander scale. This will be how the empire carebears might find their way out to 0.0 space. Just don't make the mistake of thinking you're safe, and/or someone will come save your stupid PVE fitted ship when you get jumped by a roaming gang. Nullsec is harsh, but hey risk -vs- reward right? So why should I pay massive amounts of isk in rent to someone who doesn't care a bit if I get attacked? What exactly am I paying for? What do I get in return? A piece of unsafe space? If I could protect myself I wouldn't rent the damn space to begin with now would I?
Siona Windweaver Placeholder Holdings	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:53:00 - [53] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: F'nog The best part of Dominion will be the massive ISK sink introduced by holding sov, if CCP does it wisely, that is. It's be a great way to remove billions from the economy on a continuous basis. Unlike the astounding ISK sink of the current POS requirements? From what I can see, New mechanic will use pure ISK instead of fuels and such. Using fuels doesn't take ISK away from the game.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Siona Windweaver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: F'nog The best part of Dominion will be the massive ISK sink introduced by holding sov, if CCP does it wisely, that is. It's be a great way to remove billions from the economy on a continuous basis. Unlike the astounding ISK sink of the current POS requirements? From what I can see, New mechanic will use pure ISK instead of fuels and such. Using fuels doesn't take ISK away from the game. Actually, 90% of POS fuel are NPC seeded, so yes. It does. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.17 21:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Siona Windweaver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: F'nog The best part of Dominion will be the massive ISK sink introduced by holding sov, if CCP does it wisely, that is. It's be a great way to remove billions from the economy on a continuous basis. Unlike the astounding ISK sink of the current POS requirements? From what I can see, New mechanic will use pure ISK instead of fuels and such. Using fuels doesn't take ISK away from the game. Actually, 90% of POS fuel are NPC seeded, so yes. It does. Not to mention the huge cost of the POS and POS mods themselves.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.17 21:18:00 - [56] Edited by: Malcanis on 17/09/2009 21:19:17 Originally by: Daedalus II Edited by: Daedalus II on 17/09/2009 20:53:26 Originally by: Dalek Commander From what I understand the devs are trying to put into place a more substantial way to make treaties. One would hope that charging rent will be tied to these treaties, and this will allow the mega alliances to sublet out portions of their space to smaller entities. Think of it as the Legion/Shadows of xxDeathxx way of doing things, but on a grander scale. This will be how the empire carebears might find their way out to 0.0 space. Just don't make the mistake of thinking you're safe, and/or someone will come save your stupid PVE fitted ship when you get jumped by a roaming gang. Nullsec is harsh, but hey risk -vs- reward right? So why should I pay massive amounts of isk in rent to someone who doesn't care a bit if I get attacked? What exactly am I paying for? What do I get in return? A piece of unsafe space? If I could protect myself I wouldn't rent the damn space to begin with now would I? And there we have it. The huge, unlimited subsidy of free protection in Empire is hard to beat, and this 'bear is risk-averse. Combine that with super easy, safe jump logistics, and there is your real barrier to getting more industrialists out in to 0.0: it's just not worth all that much more. Daedelus, what would have to change in Empire to make you consider a move to 0.0?
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.17 21:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Malcanis And there we have it. The huge, unlimited subsidy of free protection in Empire is hard to beat, and this 'bear is risk-averse. Combine that with super easy, safe jump logistics, and there is your real barrier to getting more industrialists out in to 0.0: it's just not worth all that much more. Daedelus, what would have to change in Empire to make you consider a move to 0.0? Well I guess with anything less that CONCORD being totally removed, nothing I hope you see this from my perspective too. I live safe in high sec, and it doesn't cost me anything, but I realize I could make more money in 0.0. I also realize this is dangerous space and I expect to pay something extra for this. Now I can't PvP for **** and protect myself, so I want to "outsource" that part by paying someone else. If the added amount of isk I can make in 0.0 in comparison to high sec is X, and the cost for me to live there (relatively) safely is Y, as long as Y < X living in 0.0 would be profitable for me, and therefore I would be interested in going there. However, if Y > X, there is no incentive for me to go there, because I will actually make less money there than in empire. As it is now Y > X, so it's not profitable. But I'd like to say that Y is not very much larger than X. With some smaller changes in mindset and/or mechanics Y could be less than X. As soon as that happens, a lot of previously carebear industrialists would get into 0.0. Currently, the pure industrialist profession and 0.0 does not mix.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.09.18 05:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Siona Windweaver Originally by: Malcanis Unlike the astounding ISK sink of the current POS requirements? From what I can see, New mechanic will use pure ISK instead of fuels and such. Using fuels doesn't take ISK away from the game. Actually, 90% of POS fuel are NPC seeded, so yes. It does. Not to mention the huge cost of the POS and POS mods themselves. You'll still need those POSes for moon mining and defensive installations, though not as many. So if CCP is smart, they'll figure out how much it costs in POSes and fuel to completely lock down a system and start calculating from there. Add on what it costs in ISK to upgrade the systems, and that's quite a whirlpool. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.09.18 06:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Daedalus II Edited by: Daedalus II on 17/09/2009 21:41:36 Originally by: Malcanis And there we have it. The huge, unlimited subsidy of free protection in Empire is hard to beat, and this 'bear is risk-averse. Combine that with super easy, safe jump logistics, and there is your real barrier to getting more industrialists out in to 0.0: it's just not worth all that much more. Daedelus, what would have to change in Empire to make you consider a move to 0.0? Well I guess with anything less that CONCORD being totally removed, nothing I hope you see this from my perspective too. I live safe in high sec, and it doesn't cost me anything, but I realize I could make more money in 0.0. I also realize this is dangerous space and I expect to pay something extra for this. Now I can't PvP for ** and protect myself, so I want to "outsource" that part by paying someone else. If the added amount of isk I can make in 0.0 in comparison to high sec is X, and the cost for me to live there (relatively) safely is Y, as long as Y < X living in 0.0 would be profitable for me, and therefore I would be interested in going there. However, if Y > X, there is no incentive for me to go there, because I will actually make less money there than in empire. As it is now Y > X, so it's not profitable. But I'd like to say that Y is not very much larger than X. With some smaller changes in mindset and/or mechanics Y could be less than X. As soon as that happens, a lot of previously carebear industrialists would get into 0.0. Currently, the pure industrialist profession and 0.0 does not mix. It all comes down to X and Y. If high sec is made much less profitable (high sec nerfing), X will be much larger and therefore a large Y can be acceptable. The other way around, protection can be made "cheaper" (probably due to changing how 0.0 works) making Y smaller and therefore a smaller X can be acceptable. Either way, high sec or 0.0 has to change before carebears go into 0.0. You've pretty much arrived at the same conclusion I came to a year ago, but from the other side as it were. Oh well, at least we both got shown the issue from the other side's perspective, as it were. The NPC advantages of Empire are simply too good to give up. PS No-one can "PvP for **" - to begin with. It's never to late to change that; you just have to accept that you'll lose a bunch of ships doing it. Come to think of it, I still suck after 3 years. I've just fooled a bunch of good PvPers into letting me join them (chumps!) so I have fun anyway.
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.09.18 07:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Malcanis PS No-one can "PvP for ****" - to begin with. It's never to late to change that; you just have to accept that you'll lose a bunch of ships doing it. Come to think of it, I still suck after 3 years. I've just fooled a bunch of good PvPers into letting me join them (chumps!) so I have fun anyway. Well the difference here is that you want to PvP, and I don't The question is whether not wanting to PvP and living in 0.0 are mutually exclusive or not. Also it's pretty obvious we come from different camps, but want to end up with the same result. You want to nerf high sec to make it comparably more profitable to live in 0.0 (you live in 0.0 so you don't want it to change). I want to keep high sec the way it is, but evolve 0.0 also making it comparably more profitable (I live in high sec so I don't want it to change). Both essentially arriving at the same result but through different means. Of course I can agree with you that certain income sources are a tad high in high sec. For example I'd prefer to see it necessary to have a team to be able to do lvl 4 missions instead of being able to do them single-handedly. Soloing is too profitable in high sec. On the other hand, lowering the income in high sec will lower the income generally for everyone in the game. Of course 0.0 would be more profitable comparably, but looking globally EVE gets poorer.

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