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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Impolite Andevil
The Shadow Knights
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Posted - 2009.11.18 22:26:00 -
[631]
I also agree that Oljud's suggestion seems like a good one. I'd still rather have Abathur's original idea, but this is workable.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.19 03:51:00 -
[632]
My take, for what it's worth:
I like the addition of fighter-bombers, the ability to dock, and the lower price. While I would never consider flying one of the current motherships (because I'd be locked into it) I would certainly consider the new version. At the same time, I can see how certain aspects of the change (specifically, the price reduction) creates a problem in terms of reimbursement or lack thereof.
Instead of changing Motherships into Supercarriers, why not just take the proposed stats and make a new ship? Call it the Assault Carrier (a much better name, in my opinion), and seed BPOs for it. The new ship will either succeed or fail on it's own (probably involving some post-expansion tweaks), and existing mothership owners are unaffected by the change. Motherships themselves might get a revision better suited to them later.
For those who prefer the new design, allow existing mothership pilots to petition to trade their mothership in for an assault carrier plus the difference in capital components needed to build the two. The pilot can then either (a) sell the components, (b) use the components to (almost) build a second assault carrier, or (c) melt the components back into minerals to either use or sell. In addition, allow the current mothership BPs to be exchanged by petition the same way (with possible isk to reimburse the difference in NPC price only). If deemed necessary, make this offer time-limited (perhaps a few months from patch day).
This makes for an extremely fair reimbursement of the cost differential, and would cover mothership owners and producers, including those with motherships already in construction. In addition, it allows those who love their existing design to keep it.
-- Becq Starforged
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Miss Shifty
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 06:46:00 -
[633]
Edited by: Miss Shifty on 19/11/2009 06:51:12
Originally by: Kaitou Shiroi /signed
Nice math, Oljud. We need more of this in this discussion, and less screaming, whining, and otherwise flaming of CCP Nozh. Destroy him with facts and numbers, not with emo-raging and weeping.
no need to destroy him, just make him play the game!
after some hours on testserver with both titan and mom i can only hope that the version on testserver at the moment will be subject to major change.
and /signed for Oljud's proposals. although i still can't see a proper bang vs. buck ratio on moms.
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 08:04:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Becq Starforged Instead of changing Motherships into Supercarriers, why not just take the proposed stats and make a new ship?
CCP has said in the past that they always thought the name mothership should imply something more 'grand' than the current state of motherships. In a way, I think the nerf has a dual purpose to free up the name for a later expansion that re-introduces a mothership but for a completely different purpose. One can only speculate as to what it would do. Lets just hope that the size of the ship when it comes out, graphically speaking, has the feel of a mothership.
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Luna Negra
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 10:42:00 -
[635]
I wonder why CCP want's to make current mom's as supercarries and then create mom's again instead of changing current mom's to fit the role of a real MotherShip and create Supercarriers to fill the void of anti-cap ships from the scratch? First they downgrade current mom's pilots then they present the ship again so current mom pilots can then buy a "real MS"... _________________________ Gravity you win again! |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.19 11:24:00 -
[636]
Originally by: Sokratesz What baffles me most about these changes is the lack of foundation.
If CCP said 'we want motherships to do x and therefor we have changed them y' it would be much easier to comment on it and provide proper feedback, instead of the massive rage and speculation going on now.
I'm pretty sure they don't know themselves to be honest. CCP Abathur presented a role for them, the initial changes on SiSi went perfectly in-line with that role, so we got the xMoms.
What didn't fit, is the recent changes. Presented by Nozh. The fun thing is how these current SiSi-stats actually goes totally against everything CCP Abathur suggested original, so we have a conflict here. Nozh gave us the Carrier 2.0.
The only reasonable explanation I can make out of this is that Abathur just brainstorms, present ideas, then they test it (and in this case, used our help). Eventually tho, the decision to do or die, is left to his superior - Nozh, who simply disagrees with Abathur.
I hope I'm wrong, but what I just posted seems logical, and would explain alot of things. I.e. to get back to the topic - I'm not even sure it's possible to get a designated 'role' to fill for the xMom's, since CCP can't even communicate or decide this internally (that too, would explain why we have no dev blog yet, since they quite possibly still discuss this internally and still - less than 2 weeks to Dominion - havn't decided on a role for these ships).
Quite guttered tbh, if I'm even remotely right here, then I'm worried not only about the state of the future Motherships, but the game as a whole. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
arbiter reformed
Minmatar Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2009.11.19 12:14:00 -
[637]
yeh but guys, new planets Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe |
Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.11.19 14:49:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Luna Negra I wonder why CCP want's to make current mom's as supercarries and then create mom's again instead of changing current mom's to fit the role of a real MotherShip and create Supercarriers to fill the void of anti-cap ships from the scratch? First they downgrade current mom's pilots then they present the ship again so current mom pilots can then buy a "real MS"...
Good question. Also, lol @ mom changes. I'm happy that I did not buy one 2 weeks ago.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:13:00 -
[639]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 19/11/2009 17:13:19
Originally by: Becq Starforged While I would never consider flying one of the current motherships (because I'd be locked into it) I would certainly consider the new version.
Now the real question is: is that a good thing or a bad thing? Because it depends on whether or not you want lots of people in supercaps, and lots of people wanting a supercap (at least a supercarrier).
Things people like must not necessarily be good things. "No taxes anymore" is one such example.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Digital Gaidin
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Posted - 2009.11.19 17:21:00 -
[640]
Maybe the goal is to have the primary ships in a Capital ship fleet be the Supercarriers and Titan's, with Dreadnoughts acting as "cheap" DPS and Carriers acting as more of a logistics platform.
With the current amount of Titan's both in game and being built CURRENTLY (seriously, what alliance doesn't have 3-5 of these in production right now), and with Supercarriers about to become common enough to travel in packs... along with the massive hitpoint boost of both Supercarriers and Titans...
Dreadnoughts/Carriers become support ships (in a similar fashion to the role Destroyers and Frigates provide in Naval Warfare) while the center of the fleet is the more expensive hulls (once again using the naval warfare analogy: Cruisers, Battleships, Carriers). Support ships are still needed for these capital ships fleets, but primarily as a means of removing tacklers to provide an escape route or fleet relocation mid-combat.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.11.19 20:41:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Sokratesz What baffles me most about these changes is the lack of foundation.
If CCP said 'we want motherships to do x and therefor we have changed them y' it would be much easier to comment on it and provide proper feedback, instead of the massive rage and speculation going on now.
Exactly. Even if people don't like a certain change, they won't mind so much if they can understand the logic behind the change, and what the changer wants to achieve. Arbitary-seeming changes where the good results are hard to see are bad, and they're worse when they abruptly displace changes announced a long time ago and playtested. Regardless of how the SC's turn out, this is a good example of how not to do PR.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
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Posted - 2009.11.19 21:11:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Originally by: Sokratesz What baffles me most about these changes is the lack of foundation.
If CCP said 'we want motherships to do x and therefor we have changed them y' it would be much easier to comment on it and provide proper feedback, instead of the massive rage and speculation going on now.
Exactly. Even if people don't like a certain change, they won't mind so much if they can understand the logic behind the change, and what the changer wants to achieve. Arbitary-seeming changes where the good results are hard to see are bad, and they're worse when they abruptly displace changes announced a long time ago and playtested. Regardless of how the SC's turn out, this is a good example of how not to do PR.
As well as project change control. And overall project management.
CCP has a client-base willing to work hand-in-hand with them. Let's hope that they pull their heads up before they release this monstrosity of a patch to see and correct the ongoing customer relations mess.
With all of CCP's newly hired employees, I find it difficult to believe that they are unable to allocate some project manager person-hours to communicating (*cough* dev blog addressing the titan and mom changes) with this community.
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Lao Dok
Monolith Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:03:00 -
[643]
WHAT??? And now you (CCP) leave the motherships as they are? Know what? Under this circumstances, with titans having their capkilla, there will be no motherships on the field!! They defn need the HP buff, not talking about the bombaz and yes the right amount !!!
strange days.
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Hangman69
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:07:00 -
[644]
The fact that you can't think of a unique role just shows how stale your personnel recruiting practices are. To recruit only former ingame players or noob programmers/gms makes you stale. The role needed once titans must be on the field is a strong rr platform that can't be jammed and also does dps. Forget about docking. Give moms a cap use bonus, repair amount bonus to go along with a slightly farther rr range (75k) (moms and titans and bounce like hell when jumped in) Make the rr bonus slightly less than triage. Give moms a fighter bomber dps of around 8k dps vs a dread or carrier. Not having the dps of 2 dreads is a joke. Get rid of the damage bonus on the nyx and give it a self rep amount bonus or something, they already will be fotm enough. Leave the price the same, shift components around if you still want the gang link bonus and triage cpu bonus off of it.
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Tappits
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:25:00 -
[645]
Edited by: Tappits on 19/11/2009 23:29:18 Right So let me get this right you Nerf? Titans so thay have a anti cap DD mod then you boosted supper carriers HP so thay can last longer and not be insta poped by 2-3 titans then you renerf MoMs and say your not doing anything but are leaveng an anti mothership guns+DD on titans but no HP boost on MoMs mmm yer good plan ?????
whos going to be 1st to DD a mom then come pach time????
Realy CCP you need to start thinking about things first. ---------------------------------------------- Pro BOB????? I fail At forums |
Shayleigh Snowflower
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:03:00 -
[646]
who would fit 5 DCUs on anything?? ---
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Tappits
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:44:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Shayleigh Snowflower who would fit 5 DCUs on anything??
DEVS?????? I mean people that don't know how to fit ships???? Whas a DCU???? me skilling carrier 5 on 3 acounts at 40+ days each not ok any more? ---------------------------------------------- Pro BOB????? I fail At forums |
the teddybear
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Posted - 2009.11.20 01:52:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Oljud Zork Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34
Originally by: Stafen
The formula for calculating missile damage.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280
Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))
Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile
"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"
Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V) Explosion Velocity 60m Damage Reduction Factor 6,5 Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)
I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.
Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum
The targets: Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity. Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity. Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity. Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity. Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.
Aeon and Wyvern against a Siege¦d Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps. Nyx against a Siege¦d Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps. Hel against a Siege¦d Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.
Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps. Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps. Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.
Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps. Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps. Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps. Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps. Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.
Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps. Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.
The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siege¦d dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...
The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.
Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.
Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?
Solution: * +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level. * +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level. * Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m. * Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec * Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom can¦t bring to many to the battlefield.
This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.
Regards
// Zork
I support this 250% LISTEN TO THIS GUY CCP HE HAS A GOOD IDEA!!
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 05:49:00 -
[649]
Woah, I wake up and suddenly NARGLES..err..devblog
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Das Coperial
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Posted - 2009.11.20 06:52:00 -
[650]
I was recently asked by someone I respect a lot to use specific words in this thread... "I am unhappy with the changes that have been made to super carriers, you have effectively nerfed a super capital many train, and work hard for. Please restore them to their original glory and make them super capitals again. E.G. +3 drones per carrier level, able to fit triage module, ability to fit a clone vat bay."
I can only support the first part of that request. I am very unhappy with the changes which have been made to super carriers. To the rest I will say this.
Nut up. This is only the latest of many nerfs to skill intensive aspects of game play and won't be the last time this happens to something we put a lot of value into.
It took me ages to get awesome exploration skills. It would have taken anyone a long time, but doing so was a pet project of mine that I did while I could sneak time away from the stuff my last CEO decided I needed to be doing. Ten months later I was there. Put some Sisters gear on board and I was the bomb. Then with one keystroke, brimming with finality, CCP wiped all that away. That was all.
That nerf was central to the strategic goals CCP has and so is this one. Customer feedback is invaluable, but it is most important when it tells a business how to accomplish its mission. Say what you want about those Althingers, but they know a lot about business. Almost as much as they know about beer! A letter writing campaign to their forums isn't any more likely to affect their strategic plan via this nerf than it did the others. Thanks to Obsidian Hawk for crafting those words which have been kicking around in my head, and thanks to all the other well crafted arguments about this string, but I am not convinced.
I expect the game to change because it must. I trust, based on long years of experience, that CCP has a diverse management team that is quite capable of seeing its vision both because of and despite its customers.
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Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:09:00 -
[651]
NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
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Cyno Girli
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Posted - 2009.11.20 08:43:00 -
[652]
How about the Hitpoints? They won't change ,too? Then a Titan kills a Mothership with one DD. PLs think about this!
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 09:52:00 -
[653]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 20/11/2009 09:54:51
Originally by: Cyno Girli How about the Hitpoints? They won't change ,too? Then a Titan kills a Mothership with one DD. PLs think about this!
Not quite one..my wyvern has 3.7mil ehp so 'll end up somewhere in armour and a well fitted aeon should be able to take 2 dd's, but still..it's extremely imbalanced.
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Jack Sparroxx
Honour Bound Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.11.20 10:49:00 -
[654]
Hardly worth the risk having a MS fielded considering 2 titans can pewn a MS, or as it is now. a smal dread fleet can vaporize a MS. So with nothing done to this ship class with thtis patch, I think it would be fair if CCP told us when there will be a change.
this may be out of topic for this thread, and then agin not. For those mothership pilots out there, what are you guys actually using your motherships for at the moment? I'm getting the sence they are used for basically nothing at the moment, since they have no role, and cant take a beating what so ever.
So for those out that have MS, what are you using it for now, and what do you think you will be using it for post-dominion since the ship wont be changed at all?
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Rose Nuke
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:37:00 -
[655]
so lets see Abathur puts in loads of work and makes motherships/super carriers worth something than nozh comes along and undoes all of it, ok bad time for Abathur.
what was good ideas have now been abandoned and now mothership changes abbonded alltogether will you ever now see one on the field, no not when a titan can nearly kill one in one shot.
what idiotic thinking lead you to this how can you sit back and say yes they can wait they don't need a hp buff all that work on fighter bombers we don't need motherships don't need a role the pilots have delt with them been almost pointless for this long lets keep it like that.
WTF get a clue guys!
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Oljud Zork
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:43:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Oljud Zork
Originally by: EVOL Mothership pilot I want to use the mom, I want to risk it, I want to kill and eventually be killed in it, it's part of the cycle of life in eve. build -> use -> die.
By launching Dominion and using the nerfbat on the Motherships will be a sad chapter in the history of EvE. Please don¦t rush with these changes. I would be a very happy pilot if CCP hit the EMERGENCY BRAKE and realise that the changes to Motherships needs a rethink and that the changes to xMom¦s will come in Dominion 2.0.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Motherships still on the drawing board
Regrettably, we've come to the point where we can no longer commit to making Motherships the monsters they're supposed to be for Dominion. However, we are going to continue refining their schematics, keep our welding torches hot and you should see them undocking from the shipyards again once we and the community are happy with their balancing.
This means NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
Thank-you-very-much!
If CCP wants to use the Mothership or Super Carrier whatever they wants to call it in Dominion as an Anti-Capital ship, do they really need to take a long time thinking of how to change it, and not nerf it back to the stone age. If it¦s going to be a "monster" then it has to deal more dps against a dread then a siege¦d dread do! My mathematics showed how silly they were going to be concerning the dps against a siege¦d dread...
- * eHP Buff needed.
* Increased Jump Range needed. * +3 Drones (Vanilla and Fighters) needed. * Fighter Bombers (10 or 20 doing the dps shown first place by CCP Abathur on SiSi.) needed. * Remote ECM Burst needed. * EWAR immune needed.
Regards
// Zork
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Kate Pole
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:08:00 -
[657]
Way to go CCP. ITS TO HARD Lets just not do it.
You had it right when you 1st decided to boost MS just go back to that, simple! really, not hard at all!! What made everone want to dust off their old MSs was the boost. The rants only started when you went back on that.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:54:00 -
[658]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
This is all some elaborate psychology experiment in punishment and reward, isn't it?
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:05:00 -
[659]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
This is all some elaborate psychology experiment in punishment and reward, isn't it?
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Jon Brutor
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:59:00 -
[660]
Originally by: Dev Blog
These are massive ships that require amazing amounts resources to produce.
Make the models bigger
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