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Zonia
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Posted - 2003.06.23 18:51:00 -
[1]
Now it seems that the people at ccp are now punishing players that happen to be smarter than them and come up with dubious (but not banned) ways to make money.
Let me explain,
1: you are flying your brand new badger MK II fully loaded with robotics you bought for 6500 isk a piece. then come some pirates blow you to bits (uncluding your pod) and take the robitics.... suck doesnŠt it, but this is "legal" in the game of EVE, you just lose some sec rating and that is that.
2: Now if you put up a market scam (nr 1 in the news) you gain a little something from the other person but itŠs not like your forcing the other person to buy as you force someone to get killed, itŠs just that people are greedy :). but now the GMs are taking the law of the game in theyŠre own hands and taking the money from the scam away from the scammers. What about my badger and 14950000 isk worth robotics? donŠt I get them back? NO! Because killing someone is allowed in the game but conning money from them is not ?!?!
This is in my humble opinion just not right. why donŠt the scammers just lose sec rating like in the realworld with white collar crimes?
...just my 5 cents, I think the gms shouldnŠt stick theyŠre nose in every little thing on the game ... I donŠt pay money to let someone else tell me how to play the game AFTERWARDS!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.23 18:56:00 -
[2]
One con is semi-legit and one is not.
The courier mission that cannot be completed is considered an exploit as the entire purpose is to take the collateral fee from the player as they cannot reach the delivery point through any means.
The con of creating supply/demand and cancelling the demand on purchase is, and I quote:
"This is an underhanded technique, but not one we can interfere with."
So, con away :)
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Arko
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Posted - 2003.06.23 19:15:00 -
[3]
no they (the gms) took all our money and intend to take more ... we didnŠt do any courier mission scams..
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Greeble
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Posted - 2003.06.23 19:40:00 -
[4]
Actually, the news post tells you how to avoid being conned with the market scam it describes. At no point do they say people doing it are breaking the rules, just that they're unscrupulous. Fair enough ;)
The thing that CCP say ISN'T allowed is exploiting a flaw in the courier contract generation tool to make money by putting up impossible-to-complete contracts.
Yeah, what the first reply said, had I but read it ahead of posting.
Edited by: Greeble on 23/06/2003 19:41:43
- Greeble
Polaris BugHunter |
Zonia
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Posted - 2003.06.23 20:07:00 -
[5]
but I am saying you that some gms (fate and Caztor) have told me that this is illegal and have taken money from my friends account because of this! tha marketing scam that is!
and they tell me that theyŠll reverse ALL the tranactions
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Nevron
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Posted - 2003.06.23 20:27:00 -
[6]
I agree with Zonia. If they are going to have some sort of a legalsystem it should atleast be visible so people know what to expect in situations like this. How would player-pirates feel if concord used invisible ships that killid everyone in one shot and there was no way of escapeing it?
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Zonia
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Posted - 2003.06.24 12:29:00 -
[7]
Are you telling me people that it doesnŠt bother you that the GMs in eve can just put the law of the game in their own hands and take money from the wallets of players just because they feel like it?!?!?!?
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Blackout
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Posted - 2003.06.24 12:52:00 -
[8]
Yes Zonia
-Perfer at obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim. |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:18:00 -
[9]
spot on. You pull exploit scams, and you will be punished. I don't have a problem with it.
And the GM's didn't 'take the power' CCP gave it to them to stop this rather weak practice. The worst thing about it is that they have to step in at all. But then life ain't perfect.
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/06/2003 13:19:42
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WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:26:00 -
[10]
"re you telling me people that it doesnŠt bother you that the GMs in eve can just put the law of the game in their own hands and take money from the wallets of players just because they feel like it?!?!?!?"
I like the fact that CCP steps in and punishes greifers like you.
I don't have a problem with it at all.
"Trust No One" |
Nevron
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:32:00 -
[11]
I would like to remind you that we took advantage of people playing the game not of some built-in flaw
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Game
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:43:00 -
[12]
If you were caught for a confidence scam in the UK, you would have your cash/possessions taken away to the amount of the sums "con'd". In real life the bailiffs do it, here, the GM's are the bailiffs.
You do a white collar crime, you pay the white collar price.
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Immacolata
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:46:00 -
[13]
I think it's weak that GMs interfere in this at all. It's a con, yes, isn't this a cut throat m0o-eats-n00b kind of world? Im all up for it. Rather than having gm yank people's chains, make a clever counter to it. I think it's valid and removign it would just detract another fun aspect of Eve.
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Nevron
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Posted - 2003.06.24 14:08:00 -
[14]
Game, If an organization killed god-knows-how-many-m0o-has-podded of US citizens in the real world and their whereabouts was known, US government would stop at nothing to bring them all down.
Has this happened in eve? NO. IŠm sorry to say, but eve cant be just like the real world or there would be no game
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.24 14:16:00 -
[15]
<< Are you telling me people that it doesnŠt bother you that the GMs in eve can just put the law of the game in their own hands and take money from the wallets of players just because they feel like it?!?!?!? >>
Zonia, if what you claim is true then it bothers me very much.
If you or your friends pulled that supply/demand scam and had the money taken from your accounts, it goes expressedly against what was told to the entire playerbase.
Now does CCP want to answer this one?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
GM Regius
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Posted - 2003.06.24 15:49:00 -
[16]
I would like to point to the SCC that is very well described in an POTW http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/feb01-02.asp . As you may read there SCC is ensuring safe trade and may interact when fraud is discovered.
Hope this clarifies the cause of this interaction.
Regius
Edited by: GM Regius on 24/06/2003 15:49:21
Edited by: GM Regius on 24/06/2003 16:26:08
best regards,
Regius
Division Manager
EVE Online Customer Support
Get support: http://support.eve-online.com/cgi-bin/eve_online.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:00:00 -
[17]
<< Hope this clarifies the cause of this interaction.
Regius >>
Makes it as clear as mud. The news specifically states that "This is an underhanded technique, but not one we can interfere with.". Yet you're saying you did just interfere, aren't you?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tigersbane
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:05:00 -
[18]
"may interact when freud is discovered."
Is this an example of a fraudulent slip?
:)
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Dearth
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Posted - 2003.06.24 16:27:00 -
[19]
Sigmund was a Griefer.
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Zonia
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Posted - 2003.06.24 19:26:00 -
[20]
so yes you say that I should be punished for this well ok, put what about pirates? in the real world if you attack someone and beat them up the victim gets money from the attacker when he or she is convicted. and another thing it didnŠt say ANYWHERE!! that this was not allowed, now that it has been said I agree we should let all future transactions from this market scam go back. but why reverse them far back in the past? itŠs not my fault I found a good way to make money.
But what does this do in the future if someone finds a good way to make lots og money... will that be banned too? or wonŠt it? ... we wonŠt know!!! so please tell us in advance what we can and cannot do!!!!
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Acix
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:29:00 -
[21]
Zonia you scammed the hell out of people. I don't care if you think it was a good way to make money. Would you really like it if someone scammed you out of 10 mil of hard earned isk, made from low end mining when you were a noob. I really think you should have had your account banned. You screwed people and you try to compair that to pirates killing people. I have yet to be held up for any money/killed for cargo or podded since the first week of playing EVE. I send out a scout about two jumps ahead of me in a pathetic reaper or rifter. I pay the clone fee for my partner if they are podded by the pirates. My indy gets though un-touched because I can take precautions. You scammed people for a lot of meney in a way they had no idea how to take precautions for. Now everyone should know, but you can still get taken if you aren't careful and just go for the low end goods. What I am trying to say is that the pirates can be avoided and this scam cannot because it can be very well hidden.
I hope that CCP takes your isk and places it in a fund for podded noob's. HAHA
SNIGG is now officially open for business. We are a merc corp looking for contracts.
For more info click below
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=68313 |
Amandyke
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Posted - 2003.06.25 01:46:00 -
[22]
You really have no reason to complain. You fell for a classic scheme. It's your own fault for falling for it. Ever notice how the quick ways to make money are usually the scams? Hopefully this is a lesson to you. Don't fall for cheap tricks.
I think that what he did is perfectly OK. If not for the simple reason that is was a SIMPLE plot. It's like fishing. You lure the fish in. Hook it, and voila, the deed is done. But is fishing illegal? On the contrary it's encouraged. I don't think that it should be encouraged to do this. But I don't think that GM intervention is necessary. The news post was FINE. Inform the players that this sort of thing is happening. And let them LEARN to heed warnings. Playing babysitter wont help to further this game. Allowing truely dynamic gameplay and only interviening when cheating occurs will further this game.
My vote is reinstate the players money, and slap them on the wrist for being bad. Don't take adverse action.
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Ansuul
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Posted - 2003.06.25 05:58:00 -
[23]
Just as in RL, market mechanics can not prevent fraud. In RL, we have the legal system to handle it, and it is called upon regularly to do so. In Eve, we have GMs--ok it may be inconsistent and heavy handed at times (and the RL legal system isn't?), but it is probably the best solution to a lot of possible ways to defraud someone.
This isn't to say that market mechanics shouldn't be changed if it is simple to do so.
Edited by: Ansuul on 25/06/2003 05:58:32
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DarkRift
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Posted - 2003.06.25 06:27:00 -
[24]
 Quote:
How is this an exploit?
They sell high buy higher and cancle when you buy...what if someone buys from somewhere else and just sells it to you....you get burned thats what.
Wrong. You get screwed again because that alt that placed the buy order has no money to begin with.
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Game
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Posted - 2003.06.25 09:11:00 -
[25]
Well, imho the market is pretty screwy. At each station you should be able to see who has put in market bids for what stocks. If you know someone to be a rogue trader you can just ignore their trades.
This means that you could also choose which trade you wish to fill, so if you are mining for a specific corp as a freelancer you can sell to them.
Come on, if you go to a market and see all the prices available, you will ALWAYS know who you are buying off.
Also, why was the zoom function disabled on the market map?
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.06.25 09:28:00 -
[26]
What happen with the items if you sell it to a person who has no money?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
M0RPHEUS
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Posted - 2003.06.25 10:17:00 -
[27]
To regius: Why hasn't the "peek of the week" updated for a month now?
Ask me nicely and I won't pod you... |
Myrmex
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Posted - 2003.06.25 11:47:00 -
[28]
one thnig i'd have to say if scam like this is illegal why then can a people scam another putting a buy order with number looking strangely like the average cost of an item but at like 1/10 of his real price ( if you look fast and do a quick sell ) say a opsrey at 4,570 000 and someone seeling 4,570 000 FOR 1 ISK ... if that isnt a scam then what it is ?
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Validus
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Posted - 2003.06.25 11:57:00 -
[29]
fantastic! down with rip off merchants in with pirates!
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Nevron
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Posted - 2003.06.25 12:35:00 -
[30]
We like to be called "market pirates" :)
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.25 12:37:00 -
[31]
we have no legal system in Eve, so he GM's must take that role. If you had run the scam a couple of times, and gone on to find something better, then it may have been different, but you probably didn't. Fraudsters get caught in RL, why not in Eve?
Why should ripping off newbs have *no* consequences?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:01:00 -
[32]
<< we have no legal system in Eve, so he GM's must take that role. If you had run the scam a couple of times, and gone on to find something better, then it may have been different, but you probably didn't. Fraudsters get caught in RL, why not in Eve?
Why should ripping off newbs have *no* consequences? >>
You have guns don't you?
P.S.
The GMs' role is not to be the moral conscience ingame. They are to provide support. If they continue to interfere ingame on moral grounds, they are going to stick their cranks in the hot end of a lit afterburner one day.
Edited by: Jash Illian on 25/06/2003 13:04:50
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Trunicus
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:23:00 -
[33]
I dont see the least reason to be upset with the gm's, polaris guides or ccp on this one. These people ran scams in Empire space and grieved 100's of people. Now the game is greiving them back. Sorry you lost all the money you stole, not.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:27:00 -
[34]
<< I dont see the least reason to be upset with the gm's, polaris guides or ccp on this one. These people ran scams in Empire space and grieved 100's of people. Now the game is greiving them back. Sorry you lost all the money you stole, not. >>
You said it yourself. "Now the game is grieving them back". Scamming is legitimate in Eve. You want to get them back, do it yourself.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Mordraig
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:40:00 -
[35]
Some form of action was bound to be taken.
Unlike pirates who most times have negative security ratings, and can have bounties placed on their heads, market pirates dont take a sec hit every market grief transaction they screw someone on. If a player wants to exact revenge they have to take a security hit and have concord breathing down their necks to do so.
If you want CCP to stay out of this then simply have the scam transactions carry a security penilty. I'm sure that the players who were scammed would love nothing more than to be able to bounty the market pirates and deal with them in a most severe manner.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:55:00 -
[36]
>You have guns don't you?
Yeah, I have plenty of guns. That's hardly the point. Running scams like this only rips off noobs. Anyone with half a brain will be able to see through most of these sort of scams.
When I bought the game, I didn't see anything about 'Get scammed!' being a feature. It's something people don't like. And when you do these sort of things to newbies, they don't like it. CCP have to look after the playerbase as a whole. And if a handful of lazy griefers are causing newbies to stop playing then you create a problem.
This happened for the same reasons the GM's came down on m0o for killing newbs for no reason. It's killing the userbase.
If you can't see past your space-wallet, then that's your problem.
scam and move on. don't scam and scam and scam.
And GM's should be the police. Unless you can set me some code that will add a self-learning investigations branch into SCC and Concord, that can look after itself, and catch new types of scam...
And if you can't supply that, then what do you suggest we do about law and order?
I couldn't care less if you spent the rest of your days scamming on your computer, but to think you can do it without repurcussion is daft.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.25 14:06:00 -
[37]
<< And GM's should be the police. Unless you can set me some code that will add a self-learning investigations branch into SCC and Concord, that can look after itself, and catch new types of scam... >>
No they shouldn't be the police. They can't create any policy to cover morality fairly. Anymore that I can provide that code you asked for.
What will end up happening with the GM's and their 'policing' is GM A will do something one day that GM B refused to do the day before. Or GM C will decide he doesn't like something and take action against a player for all the wrong reasons, because that's all he'll have to go on in a situation not covered by policy: what he likes and dislikes.
P.S.
If you can't see this coming, then why don't you explain to me how the news specifically states that its a situation they can't interfere with. Yet the GM took action contrary to that statement. The conflict between policy and action is already beginning.
Edited by: Jash Illian on 25/06/2003 14:08:37
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.06.25 14:39:00 -
[38]
So its one illegal activity vs another.
If a player shoots your ship down and takes the cargo, well as much as I would dislike it happening to me its part of the game, it states so on the box, I do not agree with the ease it can be done, nor with the nonexisting consequenses there seem to be for doing it but its part of the game.
As for the courier scam, well its been deemed bugabuse, this is good because it is what it is.
Then, the sale scam, I would say this one is legal but not if done with bogus chars, if done honestly and if the game gives us the players a possibility to scrutnise the seller and buyer then fine, I have seen it a few times but to be honest, only a mooron would fall for it as is, if one could check the buyers credit before purchase well, it would make the scam more difficult as should be.
The only reason the scam works tho is because the game mecanics is flawed in trading.
On a last note, I feel sorry for you for loosing the 14M in robotics but I dont pitty your friends a bit for loosing the earnings from scamming, right or wrong if you scam you may get burnt!
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Trunicus
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Posted - 2003.06.25 16:52:00 -
[39]
"Scamming is legitimate in Eve"
Not this time...
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.06.25 17:01:00 -
[40]
<< "Scamming is legitimate in Eve"
Not this time... >>
Oh? Then explain this:
"The seller is the same player that posted the demand. As soon as you buy he will cancel the order, leaving you with a cargo full of plant seeds that you will never get a profit on. This is an underhanded technique, but not one we can interfere with. The only answer is to think carefully before you make the transaction. If it looks too good to be true, it just might be."
"Underhanded" doesn't translate to "Illegal". And that's not my primary complaint.
Aside for the occasional grudging admiration of innovative con artists, I don't like scams any more than the rest. But what I absolutely loathe is when actions taken by the support staff runs completely opposite of official information. And GM Regius hasn't explained his interference in this situation, contrary to what is posted.
If the GMs cannot follow the policy and information as provided to us, the people paying their salaries, they need to be fired. I don't pay someone to tell me one thing and then do another. And right now it's looking more and more like the people CCP outsourced customer support to (because it is outsourced and the GM staff are not employees of CCP) are operating off the reservation and following their own whims whenever they please.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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