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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2009.09.22 12:29:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Mr Ignitious
could care less
I couldn't care less that you could care less.
This has been a public sarcastic announcement. We now return to your original broadcast...
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Some of the changes seem to be made specifically to make low skill alts more useful for
- suicide ganking (thermodynamics for increase damage for a few seconds)
- ninja salvaging (lower skills for salvaging)
Salvaging has had those requirements ever since I started playing — not sure how long before that. I have no idea what they're doing in those patch notes except to show that all mini-profession skills are now in line with each other. 
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 22/09/2009 13:07:46
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Some of the changes seem to be made specifically to make low skill alts more useful for
- suicide ganking (thermodynamics for increase damage for a few seconds)
- ninja salvaging (lower skills for salvaging)
Salvaging has had those requirements ever since I started playing ù not sure how long before that. I have no idea what they're doing in those patch notes except to show that all mini-profession skills are now in line with each other.
edit: Oh wait, now I see it: they've actually increased the prereqs for salvaging to require Engineering I as well, on top of the already required Mechanic III and Survey III. Granted, it's as minute an increase as it could ever be (especially considering that I'm not entirely sure you can even create a character without Engineering I), but still ù it's an increaseà 
Confirming that Salvaging had those reqs since it was introduced.
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N.
Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Some of the changes seem to be made specifically to make low skill alts more useful for
- suicide ganking (thermodynamics for increase damage for a few seconds)
- ninja salvaging (lower skills for salvaging)
Probably it is only paranoia  , but paranoia is a useful trait in EVE.
Heh, never thought of it that way... 
And to those who say I'm whining, maybe I am - However I didn't start this thread over just thermo, or any other skill in that list, I started it about the principle of reducing skill requirements. Of course you are all entitled to your own opinions and interpretations none the less.
But to be brutally blunt (and in an EXTREME case solely for example purposes) what if they were to say... reduce racial cruiser 5 to 4 for HACs. What I am trying to get at is what people think of shrinking the skill gap between older specialized players and the nubs.
I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Skex Relbore
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:27:00 -
[35]
Never ceases to amaze me how much supposedly hardcore camers will cry about needful things.
Understand I don't really care about what changes they make to the skill system I'm playing the game the best I can and will play under what ever rules CCP puts in place.
That being said in a MMO the developers HAVE to do things to allow new players to "catch up" to the older established player base.
There is a certain amount of attrition in any game no matter how good it is. People are always going to be quitting either through frustration or just because of changes in their life status.
Now I may be a newb to Eve but I'm a long time MMO player I played a raiding ranger in one of the Top 10 EQ1 guilds for almost 8 years after having played as a casual player for 2 before that. When I started playing EQ you had hell levels and hybrid and racial experience penalties crap loot and we used to have to walk to Kelethin from Butcherblock uphill through the snow both ways.
Eventually they got rid of the experience penalties and improved the loot and made it posible for people to get a reasonable amount of exp in a reasonable time.
Now while it wasn't quite fair that newer players didn't have to go through all that pain and discontent it was still good for hte game because it let new people join up and keep paying the bills.
In EVE it's even more important for the Developers to address that balance. The very nature of the skill system is such that it is litterally impossible for a new player to ever catch up to an active veteran.
In class/exp based games the newby could devote insane amounts of time and grind like a maniac 24/7 to catch up.
Further since games like EQ and WOW tend to be more equipment driven than character skill driven the real measure of the veteran is in the quality of his gear.
In this game the ships are mostly generic with the majority of player power coming not from the ships themselves but rather the skill set of the character. Since the skillset can not be influenced in anyway other than commitment of real life time it the system grants a permanent advantage to the long time player.
While this may be great for the veteran player this is a pretty serious detriment to the new player because they will constantly be outclassed.
If the situation is allowed to persist in perpetuity then eventually new players will just not find the motivation to play, So the developers have to find ways to accelerate the advancement of the new players with out adversely penalizing the existing player base.
Now understand in cases like the one being discussed here. Nothing is being taken away from the veteran player. You still have skills you had those skills and the advantage of them before the changes and you'll have to advantages afterwards as well plus it may make life easier on some of your alts.
The alternative of leaving the system as is with the huge real life time sink that is the EVE skill system will eventually lead to empty servers.
Like I said I don't simply have this oppinion just because I will get advantage from such changes, Frankly I'm enough of a newb in this game that I don't understand the skill system sufficiently to even grasp what sort of practical effect the changes in question will have on my characters.
Eventually CCP will have to take more drastic action to accelerate the advancement of new players even more. You should be glad that they seem to be trying to do it in a very conservative fasion.
In the end it's a very simple economical equation. New subscriptions must be greater than cancelation else the game comes to an end. To acheive that goal persistent games have to experience some mudflation else you'll end up with a drindling supply of existing players who won't generate sufficient revenue to keep the servers running.
From everything I've read so far CCP seems to have a good grasp on these concepts and works hard to keep their mudflation in check.
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Mona X
Caldari
Polish Task Forces
C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:31:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
I talked to some of my mates and said exactly what I assumed CCP would do this for: Making it easier for new players to catch with older ones. I really don't like that whole idea especially because the only factor in SP/ability growth is time it self. Obviously player skill grows at different rates, but when it comes to skill training time reduction it kinda feels like older/specialized players are getting a bit robbed. As I type this I do realize that I sound exactly like many other threads about penalizing older player advantages.
I like that idea for exactly same reason you hate it. Those noobs will have thermordynamics, BUT... without perfect cap skills.
Same with learning skills. New players can (well, they should) train advanced learnings when they got basics to 4, and most stops there. I have my basics at 5, so those 4/4 are gimped compared to me.
--
This "Time Flux Detected" crap is ****ing annoying. |
Feebis Gruina
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:13:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mona X
Same with learning skills. New players can (well, they should) train advanced learnings when they got basics to 4, and most stops there. I have my basics at 5, so those 4/4 are gimped compared to me.
Obviously, it makes sence.
What about skill that are plain useless though?
Like Survey V?
Honestly, i would never train that one in my life if it wasnt for archaeology skill. :P
At least give it some proper use, now im stuck with useless lvl V.
Thats just plain wrong. :P
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.22 16:52:00 -
[38]
I did Energy management 5 like a year before thermodynamics was even in game 
You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Keiko Shizuka
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:20:00 -
[39]
Energy Management is a great skill to have for what it does. Faster cap recharge is almost always useful. Not so great if you actually only fly passive shield tanked ships with missiles or projectiles and no other activated modules I suppose. But really, who does that?
Missile Bombardment is a primary missile skill in my opinion, your weapon system gets to hit things further away, what's not to like?
Survey... well, not so great. At least it's only a rank 1 skill, where the other two are rank 3 and 2 respectively. So the comparative "loss" of skill points is minimal.
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DarthCaboose
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Posted - 2009.09.23 05:33:00 -
[40]
Well, I dunno about you guys but it looks like Dominion's patch notes for the skills have been pretty good for me so far. I've been focusing on all the skills other than the ones being changed here so it'll make it a bit easier for me to broaden out in the future.
Still though, I'd be pretty bummed if CCP ever changed the requirements of a Hulk from Mining Barge V to Mining Barge IV. Uggh...
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Oasio
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Posted - 2009.09.23 10:58:00 -
[41]
No one say energy management V or missile bombardement V are not very usefull in their own way.
But for the same training time, a few other support skill at 4 are more usefull.
Survey V ... i hope there will be another use for it
Electronic upgrade V is also totally useless for an inventor.
I like the thermodynamics change, actually, overheat is a core game mechanic now.
I dislike the cloaking change, but anyone should have electronics 5 anyway, so it won't change much, except for making cloaking scout easier to do.
But the hacking/archeology change ... i understand they want to make exploration a core feature, but it is still annoying.
And more so for those who trained energy upgrade for hacking for invention.
Oasio
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.23 11:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Oasio
Electronic upgrade V is also totally useless for an inventor.
CovOps — go out and find those decryptors! 
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
Firh
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Posted - 2009.09.25 04:20:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Firh on 25/09/2009 04:20:13
I started up my char in January this year, quite frankly I still can't pilot even a T1 Cruiser at what I consider, with the people I play with and against, a competative level. I have only focused on PvP and have kept crosstraining at a bare minimum.
Yes, I've trained energy management V for what is a mandatory PvP ability. Yes I hated it and no I rarely have use for the extra capacitor on the ships that I currently fly.
Do I think that it's a great initiative of CCP to remove some of the more lenghty skill requirements for core abilities and skills such as thermodynamics? Yes, absolutely yes.
I'm laughing at the people going 'waah-waah' about this, some of you keep touting about how it's actual experience that matters and not SP. Well, what are you so upset about then?
- Having said that I know that whilst it extremely important to know how to play, it's honestly not that hard to learn how to in this game, despite what some would like think. Sure, every now and then you will lose ships as you discover new things not to do, but you'll lose more ships (or just miss out on alot of engagements, ie. fun) to having a vastly inferior ammount of SP.
Funny thing is that these changes don't actually adress this, veterans will still have a huge edge on new players.
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Nakkano
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Posted - 2009.09.25 05:08:00 -
[44]
"making it easier for new players to close the gap and catch older players. As far as I'm concerned I just see at CCP slowly subtly catering to the more mindless players. I do not like making eve easier, if anything its too easy atm."
God forbid these mindless players can stand a chance against a 50m/sp char
I hope CCP makes more of these changes, it lets more players compete at a basic level, faster, and it won't make a shred of difference to people loaded in SP.
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Florio
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.09.25 08:46:00 -
[45]
In my opinion the faster new players can reach a decent level of proficiency to be competitive with us older players the better.
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Ihara Rika
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.09.25 14:35:00 -
[46]
The other skill changes seem fine, bringing more utility to newer players with modules that may improve their field performance if they choose to equip them. So by lowering some of these skill requirements your allowing newer players to more effectively diversify their armament.
However, the following skills:
Cloaking
Bomb Deployment
Thermodynamics
The above skills are crescendo game-play and role changing skills. They take time to achieve because a player has set up a goal to become invested in a set category of game play. By reducing the skill requriements players can passively and very early on start spewing bombs in masse with little regard to any sort of responsibility assigned to the class or purpose because they just happened to train it and can use it. As though it were given to them instead of the player actually wanting it to the point of investing some of their precious time. Given the right to drop on someone after a cloaked warp isn't something you pass out to every player on day one, they should have some sort of desire to train for it. Thermodynamics I can kinda sway on, but the ability to gain a balanced game-mechanic that gives pilots who have invested the time a slight edge over other players, if used properly, sounds tempting enough to train for. Rather these skills could just be lined up into a one or two day training span with the proposed patch eliminating any sort of importance they once held. The allusion to cutting T2 ships down to a lvl 4 requirement isn't far off.
Eve is not WoW. One of my concerns when I joined was that players have been playing the game for years and that their inputted time will severely outclass me, so whats the point of playing eve instead of a newer game. Characters who have been around a long time still fall to intelligent sub 10mill players I learned and that through purposeful training you can beat the best of them even if your only little more than a month old as that's how Eve's game mechanics allow you to operate.
Players who spend time playing eve not only advance their combat effectiveness through training but also their combat diverseness. We train for more effective systems, different ship classes, and the ability to use new modules that help shape the way we play. I understand your intent and most of the proposed skill changes seem to be for the better, enriching the new player experience. But you are starting to chip away at the diverseness of eve by whittling down large game changing skills to just a light day or less training period. Tread lightly.
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Wesley Levy
Caldari
Achura Science and Exploration
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Posted - 2009.09.26 04:18:00 -
[47]
Hmm... well, first let me point out that I am a newbie. So it will kind of nice to be able to train thermodynamics sooner, even though I don't plan on it. That said, I have hacking and archeaology to 2 at the moment.
The prereqs for hacking are usefull, so no complaints there, especially as more people with hacking means more invention going on, which probably means cheaper tech 2 bpcs.
But Survey V? At least it was only four days of training.
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SharpMango
The Khanates
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Posted - 2009.09.26 10:32:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Skex Relbore
In this game the ships are mostly generic with the majority of player power coming not from the ships themselves but rather the skill set of the character. Since the skillset can not be influenced in anyway other than commitment of real life time it the system grants a permanent advantage to the long time player.
While this may be great for the veteran player this is a pretty serious detriment to the new player because they will constantly be outclassed.
If the situation is allowed to persist in perpetuity then eventually new players will just not find the motivation to play, So the developers have to find ways to accelerate the advancement of the new players with out adversely penalizing the existing player base.
Now understand in cases like the one being discussed here. Nothing is being taken away from the veteran player. You still have skills you had those skills and the advantage of them before the changes and you'll have to advantages afterwards as well plus it may make life easier on some of your alts.
The alternative of leaving the system as is with the huge real life time sink that is the EVE skill system will eventually lead to empty servers.
great post skex. And yes your absolutely right
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Aion Amarra
Minmatar
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.26 11:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Serge Bastana
Edited by: Serge Bastana on 22/09/2009 03:17:44
I'm a relatively new player and don't have a lot of experience of thermodynamics, but I do have the skillbook ready as it's been mentioned by more experienced members of my corp as being a very useful skill to know.
This benefits me but in some ways it does devalue it a little for me as it's supposed to be something of an achievement to have made it to that point.
What I wonder is this: by giving access to the skill with easier pre reqs, does CCP perhaps hope to have more inexperienced people using this and maybe damaging their mods to the point where they are no longer repairable, thus craating a more subtle isk sink?
All those players eager to get the chance to over heat their guns and blowing them to hell cos they haven't quite figured out other aspects of the game yet. You never know.
EDIT: Energy Management is a very useful skill anyway and it's on my plan to take to 5, so as has been mentioned on a thread in the test server forum, it will separate those that only train it high enough for thermodynamics and those that train it for the benefits it gives beyond that, which may benefit the opponents of those players who don't bother training it past 3
Do note, though: While thermodynamics is an isk sink through nanite paste or in-station repairs (and technically the skillbook), forcing people to buy new modules is NOT, given almost everything on the market is player manufactured, and the isk thus doesn't leave the system (except for sales tax).
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Renarla
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Posted - 2009.09.26 15:35:00 -
[50]
I don't see why they'd reduce the cloaking requirement from V to IV. Electronics V should be one of the first things you train.
However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs. |
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Mobius Fierce
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
But to be brutally blunt (and in an EXTREME case solely for example purposes) what if they were to say... reduce racial cruiser 5 to 4 for HACs. What I am trying to get at is what people think of shrinking the skill gap between older specialized players and the nubs.
The 5 will still be better the the 4, so what's the problem? Are you afraid that the level 5 skills you've trained won't be enough to protect you from us newbies? 
But seriously, this game is hardcore enough. New people with only 1/10th of your capability instead of 1/20th aren't going to change the game much from your perspective regardless. Also, why do people keep bringing up specialization? Forcing new players to specialize is absurd. True new players should have the ability to try a little bit of everything and only specialize when they've found a role they enjoy, without hurting themselves in the long run by doing so (which is why I hate the concept of attributes in a skills over time based game, but that's another post).
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.29 05:41:00 -
[52]
I'm all for this change, thermodynamics is a wonderful skill that adds a lot to the game. Sorry, I believe this is a good thing.
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.29 08:07:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Firh
Edited by: Firh on 25/09/2009 04:20:13
I started up my char in January this year, quite frankly I still can't pilot even a T1 Cruiser at what I consider, with the people I play with and against, a competative level. I have only focused on PvP and have kept crosstraining at a bare minimum.
Yes, I've trained energy management V for what is a mandatory PvP ability. Yes I hated it and no I rarely have use for the extra capacitor on the ships that I currently fly.
What ship do you fly that capacitor is irrelevent?
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:26:00 -
[54]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 29/09/2009 11:26:48
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Firh
Edited by: Firh on 25/09/2009 04:20:13
I started up my char in January this year, quite frankly I still can't pilot even a T1 Cruiser at what I consider, with the people I play with and against, a competative level. I have only focused on PvP and have kept crosstraining at a bare minimum.
Yes, I've trained energy management V for what is a mandatory PvP ability. Yes I hated it and no I rarely have use for the extra capacitor on the ships that I currently fly.
What ship do you fly that capacitor is irrelevent?
Learn to read : "I rarely have use for the extra capacitor on the ships that I currently fly"
And he could train for something diffrent instead , that gives him better things ( for him )
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Tiberiiun
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Posted - 2009.09.30 15:06:00 -
[55]
I'm a new pilot. If I want to use the BS setup i have planned I will need EM5 for it. This is regardless of the fact that the req for Thermo is coming down. i need as much cap as possible for my tank. Throw Thermo in there and it's a nice perk and probably handy to boot. However as a new pilot I can tell you that having the skill and knowing what the dang thing does is the difference here.
Yes, all the older pilots may have the skill at 5, some just to get thermo, but, regardless of the reasons for getting it to five you have:
1)the slight advantage of better base cap.
2)knowledge of how to use thermo and cap correctly.
The first can be gotten with time. The second can be gotten with time and experience. Which is what all of you had to do to get the skills. All bringing the req down does is give the new pilots something else to learn as they go, as if there isn't enough to learn already!
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Lord Helghast
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Posted - 2009.09.30 15:35:00 -
[56]
i really hate people like this, wow boo hoo you trained a skill to lvl 5 and now you could get thermo at lvl 3, SO F*CKING WHAT...
People need to stop playing just to unlock things, seriously, the skills don't give you ONLY the unlock you realize that right? LVL 5's take longer but generally are what put pilot A slightly ahead of pilot B and result in a dead pilot B...
Ya people will get thermo sooner, but their energy management will still suck in comparison to a LVL5 gamer, i mean seriously, are you saying you only train skills to LVL5 for an unlock? really? wow then by all means everyone stop training levelV's and when i get my miscellanious skills to LVL V please stop by for some fighting i mean really, LVL5 isnt just some stupid unlock moment its an important skill to have.
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Joe Skellington
Minmatar
JOKAS Industries
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2009.09.30 16:13:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
Preliminary Dominion Patch Notes
So I was reading all that stuff and while it's largely meh I found myself irked by a certain fact: The lowering of skills reqs for certain tasks. Most of them I personally could care less about because the bar wasn't lowered much or are industry oriented (a subject I know little about). I am however quite familiar with thermodynamics and the "specialization" and situational based usage of it. I was not to happy to read that the energy management 5 requirement is being reduced to lvl 3.
I talked to some of my mates and said exactly what I assumed CCP would do this for: Making it easier for new players to catch with older ones. I really don't like that whole idea especially because the only factor in SP/ability growth is time it self. Obviously player skill grows at different rates, but when it comes to skill training time reduction it kinda feels like older/specialized players are getting a bit robbed. As I type this I do realize that I sound exactly like many other threads about penalizing older player advantages.
The reason I post this is because I want to know what the rest of the masses of eve-o forum warriors think of such changes as this: making it easier for new players to close the gap and catch older players. As far as I'm concerned I just see at CCP slowly subtly catering to the more mindless players. I do not like making eve easier, if anything its too easy atm.
Tl;Dr - What do you folks think about reducing skills that lead to character specialization?
It appears CCP is taking on the Bobby Kotick model and noobing everything down to dirt to cater to the masses for more $$
I hope it's not noobed to the state WoW is, I would hate to quit as I like this game. We'll have to see when Dominion is released.
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Smyrk
SRE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2009.10.01 01:53:00 -
[58]
I have every single one of the affected skills. I understand the intent, but man CCP, you guys are killing me with the archaeology/survey change. There is simply no redeeming value of that 3-4 days of training anymore. At least it was only a rank 1.
Please make Survey V a prereq for something useful as a bone for those of us who will never get that SP back. Assuming you don't change it, I now have level V of a skill which enables no other skills, no useful modules (just a probe that cuts moon survey time from 10 minutes to 5), and "Skill at operating ship, cargo and survey scanners. 5% improvement per level in the scan speeds of those module types." WOOOOOT.
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Azarie
Amarr
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
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Posted - 2009.10.01 02:24:00 -
[59]
Why are some several years old veterans even complaining about how their Energy Management5 is being made useless by this? I'd be embarassed to post something so stupid ...
The only thing you could 'maybe' complain about is the Survey5 not being necessary anymore, as that skill indeed is pretty terrible, but claiming that EM or Missile Bombardement or w/e you trained is now going to be obsolete, that's just so shortsighted and stupid.
I might be biased, being a new pilot myself and all, but IMO Thermodynamics skill essentially falls into the same category of things such as MWDs or Propulsion Jamming - sure, you can play without it but it's a fairly major mechanic that should be accessible to new pilots fairly early. And the changes to preqs for Archaelogy / Hacking are great; it's very, very discouraging right now to keep finding these Magnetometric sites and adding the possibility of the 3-weeks train for Hacking just so I can actually use them, whilst having T2 guns / drones, 5's in support skills, T2 ships and so on on the list.
There is obviously nothing wrong with certain skills being 'exclusive' to older characters and requiring significant time investement, but IMO these should be limited only to highest tier ship classes really, T3 cruisers and T2 battleships are great examples. Stuff that can be used - and pretty much NEEDS to be used to be effective - on T1 ships, should be accessible to new pilots within first 1-2 months. The extra %'s in efficiency of the modules you fit, damage done with your guns, ship agility & so on you gain from actually training skills to 5's still makes it more than worthwhile.
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Debonair Dan
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Posted - 2009.10.01 11:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Joe Skellington
It appears CCP is taking on the Bobby Kotick model and noobing everything down to dirt to cater to the masses for more $$
I hope it's not noobed to the state WoW is, I would hate to quit as I like this game. We'll have to see when Dominion is released.
if a 5 year old vet leaves the game because of a change, and instead we have 5 new players join the game because of a change..
then in my opinion that change is worth it. every game needs new blood to survive. and not only that, new players give health and vitality to a game.
so like it or not, if you quit, but more people join the game, i really wont care that you quit. i'd only care if you quit, but more people didnt join the game.
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