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honest harrington
Nevada Mining and Exploration Corp
0
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Posted - 2012.06.06 18:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let me say first that I have enjoyed PvP in other games, and plan to in this one. With that said, I think the practise of griefing noobs as allowed in this game is bad for us all. Let me list the reasons
1: In every other game I know of there are multiple servers, with the dedicated PvP servers clearly marked, and PvP on the other servers on an optional (flagged in general areas or in dedicated subsections of the map) basis. This allows people to build gear and experience/levels until they feel comfortable competing in PvP with a reasonable expectation of actually building those levels and aquiring the gear in a timely manner.
If someone is griefing you in this game (stealing mined ore, salvaging mission kill ships. etc) you loose the larger portion of your income, and possible salvaged gear, with no option to avoid it except logging out of the game to avoid the griefer. If you try to fight back (the pure PvP/anarchist world model) then you add the cost of lost ships and installed modules to your cost, because no noob with low in-game trained skills and/or low-tech equipment can fight against somebody with a Tech 3 ship and gear and fighting skills all at 5.
2:In every other game the costs of PvP are minimal. If killed in a PvP fight you can resurrect with minimal repair costs, allowing players to learn the skills needed to be a succesful PvP'er without forcing him to give up the gear he worked so hard to obtain.
In this game, if someone ganks the poor noob who's fool enough to fight back when he see's all his mission salvage or hard earned ore stolen his ship is gone. Yes there is insurance, but at todays ship prices insurance doesn't even cover the cost of the ship, much less the installed modules and rigs, or the cost of re-upping the insurance. So the noob goes backward in his quest to advance, with no real option except to hide in the station till the griefer goes away (always so much fun) or logging out in disgust.
3: The game economy and resources are player provided. The reason material costs (ores and minerals) are going up (and driving up the costs of all the things made from them) is because there are fewer noobs and non-corp players mining and doing missions. They have no incentive to, because after the 5th time they've had they're stuff stolen by some guy who usually doesn't need it or care about anything but the opportunity to easily and safely bully somebody smaller than himself they get disgusted and quit doing it. Which drives a spiral. Once you get past the tutorials (where they are giving you ships) and have to start buying them the cost of aquiring and equiping them keeps getting higher, so you have to do more missions, mine more ore to pay for them, but you have a hard time doing it because some idiot with nothing better to do than tear the wings off of flies keeps tormenting you.
This has practical problems for the PvP'ers too. Two years ago when I first started playing the game platinum insurance on a BC would replace the ship, with some left over to replace at least some of the modules. If you lost your ship in a PvP fight you had to go to the trouble of going to get another one and tracking down the modules to go it, but you had the money to do it. Today, if you loose a BC you are short by many million of the cost of replacing just the ship, much less any high tech modules, much less re-upping the insurance. So even if you're not getting griefed the urge to PvP just for the fun of it goes way down. Yes, you can never fly anything bigger than a frigate to avoid the high cost of bigger ships, but not everyone enjoys little pew-pews.
So, why are all of the above bad for all of us trying to play the game? Because this game doesn't really exist in a giant universe in space, it exists in a server farm in a building here on Earth. And it doesn't exist solely for us to have fun, that's only a happy by-product. It exists so that CCCP can make a profit. If the game stops making a profit (because the player population goes too low because old players quit from natural causes and new players don't stay because trolls make the game too miserable) then the company shuts down the servers and our 'universe' goes cold and dark. Even if things don't get to the point that the game gets so unprofitable that they shut it down completely it can easily get to the point the the extra profits needed to pay programmers to create new content (expansions) goes away and the game stays stagnant. And what doesn't grow dies, it's a simple fact of nature, so once again, our universe goes cold and dark.
Now, I can hear the dedicated griefers and trolls now, saying "It's a PvP world and it's my right to steal what ever I can get away with, the rules say so, and anybody who doesn't like it can quit like the little whiners they are" Which is true, as the rules stand. And the dedicated PvP'ers, who live to fight anyway, are saying "So what? Let them do what they want, if they come mess with me I'll hand them they're head and I don't care what they do to the noobs in high-sec cause I never go there anyway"
And the people in big corps are saying again "So what? I have my corp brothers to back me up, and either help me fight or replace my ship if I get ganked" To all of you (except the griefing trolls, who I advise quite hopefully to 'Eat crap and die') I say, remember, if they drive away enough people, which they are trying quite hard to do, the game dies. Whether it was your fault, or whether it affected you in the game or not, if you ignore it till the game goes away it's too late then.
For any of you interested in a simple solution to this problem, which doesn't materially affect game play in any way except to get rid of players who live to grief noobs please read the post "griefing, a simple fix" and add your support. |
Cetaphil Thrace
The Royal Dynasty
Stealth Wear Inc.
3
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
That was well said, and i agree with it entirely. Null, low sec should be pvp areas, but the pvp crowd well some of them dont like the good kids, so its like lets beat up the poor fat kid, some people on here have no life, and probably live in their mothers basement surrounded by comic books and ****, but in a perfect world it would be like other mmos, but its not, it is a free playing field they have cops in high sec none in low, so it is more like real life is all. Makes it tough, but thats EVE. |
EnslaverOfMinmatar
You gonna get aped
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
honest harrington wrote:
1: In every other game I know of there are multiple servers, with the dedicated PvP servers clearly marked, and PvP on the other servers on an optional (flagged in general areas or in dedicated subsections of the map) basis..
The only mmo with pve and pvp servers I know is AoC and it's so crappy that no one wants to play it, that's why it went f2p.
Every EVE player must read this http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-01-07 or uninstall and DIAF |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
EnslaverOfMinmatar wrote:honest harrington wrote:
1: In every other game I know of there are multiple servers, with the dedicated PvP servers clearly marked, and PvP on the other servers on an optional (flagged in general areas or in dedicated subsections of the map) basis..
The only mmo with pve and pvp servers I know is AoC and it's so crappy that no one wants to play it, that's why it went f2p.
I understand WoW has pvp and pve servers
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
442
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cetaphil Thrace wrote:but the pvp crowd well some of them dont like the good kids, so its like lets beat up the poor fat kid.
What if you are the fat kids beating up everybody who will form up and fight?
. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
2287
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Greifing is a bannable offence. You simply expect a happy carebear land that does not exist.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Kyle Myr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
242
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
I've edited down my post in response to your wall of text because I feel being on point in reply is the only way to address your dislike of the fundamentals of EVE.
1) EVE is single shard, and has no dedicated safe zones.
EVE's single shard nature is one of its main selling points, as actions have consequences, and the rules of engagement, while different for different zones of space (high versus low versus null versus wormholes), are consistent in our one shared New Eden. Doing anything here means interacting with the same world and competing against all its residents, either in the market, in producing ISK or goods, or in directly trying to shoot someone else.
Oh, and there are dedicated safe zones - can flipping and other aggressive actions are forbidden in the tutorial zones, so that players who have logged in for the first time can learn how to pilot their ship at a basic level. There are no levels, and a 1 day old newbie in a frigate can contribute to the kill of a capital ship.
2) The cost of PvP in EVE means potentially losing in game money.
The need to weigh cost versus benefit in PvP in EVE creates very interesting dynamics, as poorly but expensively fit ships can be taken out by more cost effective designs, and the cost of earning the ability to field a given fitting versus how often you lose it determines what players are willing to fly (occasionally augmented by lucrative corporation, alliance, or coalition programs). Even week-old players will be able to earn the ISK to fit out a competent t1 frigate with meta 0-2 modules in a decent fit in under an hour of play, and months-old players can easily subsidize programs to provide these ships to new members of their corporation for a pittance.
3) The economy is player driven.
This is one of EVE's largest selling points, as it adds another level of complexity, potential for profit, and nuance to the game, and one unique to MMOs, and possibly even to EVE. Demand and supply drive the price of goods, market manipulation is possible, and capitalizing on this can make more money than raw production (of minerals, LP, modules, or ISK). Tying insurance to mineral costs was a necessary fix, as previously, there was a period where producing and self-destructing battleship hulls was an incredibly lucrative source of money.
With even modest in game income, it's possible to enjoy EVE. Insured, t2 fit battlecruisers still only cost me maybe an hour's worth of income, even without alliance subsidies. This income isn't even that great, and is easily matched by people who have figured out ways to turn high sec profitable.
I don't really understand your complaints. None of the points you raised are negative to EVE, and you've highlighted many of its unique positive qualities. |
Cetaphil Thrace
The Royal Dynasty
Stealth Wear Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:Cetaphil Thrace wrote:but the pvp crowd well some of them dont like the good kids, so its like lets beat up the poor fat kid. What if you are the fat kids beating up everybody who will form up and fight?
Do not know what you mean, your sentence made no sense, and im not fat nor a kid. And i dont live in a basement lol |
Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
417
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Firstly... your wall of text is irritating to read.
Multiple servers: A great way to completely Kill the EVE economy of supply and demand.
PVP with no risk to items lost? Did you know the supply of ships and modules is determined by demand? If there is no risk to things lost in pvp what reason would there be for supply since what will the point be of building ships and modules when you can be resureccted with minimal cost. (Played WOW to much?)
As for prices.... no that is determined by damand. Hisec provide very little of that demand. Learn your game before you provide idiotic ideas.
Once again, people to easily use the grief. Learn its meaning and try again.
I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist.
The Crazy African
*Hair done by LGÇÖOr+¬al, because I'm worth it. |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
First of all - if you write so much text I assume you want it to be read by someone. Most people will NOT read walls of text and for those, who actually would read it - please do proper formatting in the future.
@0
honest harrington wrote: In every other game
This is not 'every other' game.
@1
Single shard pvp environment - don't like it? Play other MMO ( there's lots of those you know ).
If you cant get iskies because of mean players, who are stealing from you then you just don't belong here in the first place.
@2
Oh yes. The dreadful concept of hurtful and meaningful losses - not for the faint hearted, sorry.
@3
Now you beginning to sound very silly.
honest harrington wrote:The reason material costs (ores and minerals) are going up (and driving up the costs of all the things made from them) is because there are fewer noobs and non-corp players mining and doing missions.
Obviously you have no bloody idea how economy works and why the prices are like they are ( having knowledge about certain changes and CCP's actions would help with that). There were many threads moving this subject where people, who actually do know how it works, explained it in a reasonable fashion.
honest harrington wrote:...and have to start buying them...
This is outrage. I should not be forced to buy my own ships and modules. Ever.
Player driven economy - oh dear, those bad people making and selling their stuff want to get paid for it |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
2287
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
I won't tell you to go back to wow, but you have to understand that this isn't wow.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Heckar Ottig
Irrationality ILLC
Soldiers Of New Eve
0
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Posted - 2012.06.06 20:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Didn't your mom tell you that Eve is a bad place where bad people do bad things to kids who don't eat their vegetables? |
Boomhaur
84
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Posted - 2012.06.06 21:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
As a hi sec carebear who does missions, trading, manufacturing (had to say that so you get the full effect) you need to HTFU. This is not WoW, we are not nice people. And you listed a lot of the things that make Eve unique, and a lot of your points are not accurate. Noobs are not the primary source of minerals, I'm sorry a guy in a noob ship or miining frig/cruiser no matter how many we currently have in game won't put a dent in the mineral prices if they all left.
Oh and I've done THOUSANDS of missions over the years to pay for my account I have NEVER once had someone warp in to salvage or steal my loot. Or warp in period, don't know where you get this every 5th mission someone jumps in to steal your stuff from. But that is far from normal and I have never heard of anything remotely close to that happening.
Beyond that I think I let someone else tear apart your post it's too full of fail for me to continue on.
Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 21:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
We don't want players like you anyway. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1672
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 21:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:We don't want players like you anyway.
Pretty much this.
Eve is a game of competition. You compete for resources, you compete for rewards, you compete for locations, you compete for to not get your stuff blown up. Creating a competition-free environment would create a very dull Eve. You're talking about changing the fundamental nature of Eve.
While I encourage everyone in Eve to find their own way, anyone who comes in here wanting to change the game rather than themselves needs to go away.
Seriously, do people get on other game forums doing this same thing? "I want Team Fortress 2 to not have any guns. Then we can just run around and show off our hats!"
It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
2292
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 22:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gallente have the best pets but we could all benefit from more hats.
(a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
73
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 22:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
There are three ways that new players get 'griefed' in EVE:
1. They take from yellow cans, shoot can flippers, shoot people who steal from them in missions.
2. They jump into a lowsec gatecamp and die.
3. They AFK mine and get blown up.
For #1, they have Rookie Help, a channel that is devoted to little other than warning new players away from activities that might be the least bit exciting. #2 is mainly the fault of a new player experience which encourages new players to believe in a ship progression from 'crappy frigates' to 'awesome battleships', and which teaches them nothing about gate mechanics/aggression/agility/dscan/bookmarks/etc. -- so they jump into lowsec with no player skill and they jump in with ships that are the least forgiving of that when it comes to evading pirates. #3 is good for the game.
Boomhaur, mission in Arnon and people will come to play with you. My experience: completing SoE in a PvP fit brick Arbitrator with neuts, scram, T2 drones (but not a good selection of them), and dying to a Merlin after he brought in a Basilisk to give him cap transfers. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
136
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 22:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cannibal Kane wrote:I think I found me next corp to dec. First need to get the paid ones out of the way. Ah, at least it's becoming fun.
I'm offering you free locates, Kane !  |
Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 22:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Op is basically wrong in every single point, amusing. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
169
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 23:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Why should OP care about all the longterm EVE players that enjoy how things are now. He's clearly one a classic MMO player who moves on from new release to new release after a few months, once he gets all the "sweet gear" he wants because everything is risk free and there are no real consequences.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Vito Tattaglia
New Paradigm Inc.
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 23:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
China called.
They want their wall of text back. |
Aesheera
Malum Crusis
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 23:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
While I dont want to sound offensive there but as said several times before, all the things that make EVE so unique (and probably a tad too harsh for people who are used to games where you ressurect with hardly a consequence) are things that shouldn't be touched.
EVE is cold and dark - it's the way it should be.
The environment is harsh, a dog eat dog universe, and getting established properly can indeed be quite the trip.
It's a good thing in my humblest of opinions, because it filters out the people early on that have no desire to deal with the 'virtual hardships' that EVE brings.
Getting canflipped is a indicator that you shouldnt be mining in cans.
Getting murdered in your missions is a sign that you shouldnt start attacking the frigs that salvage or steal your stuff.
Getting shot down in gatecamps is a signal that you should have someone scout a system for you (corpmates/alts anyone?).
Undocking in EVE is agreeing to the fact that you put your ship and potentially your pod at risk - even in highsec with the suicide ganks.
It's all part of EVE, thankfully, and it is what seperates EVE from the many other streamlined MMO's out there that are designed around the same concept.
if it causes players to flip, rage or frustrate themselves over it, this most likely isn't the most healthy game environment for said people to be in.
Love it or hate it, but definately dont change it.
Malum Crusis is recruiting! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 03:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
There is a test server.
You shouldn't have a problem finding an empty system with no other players.
Maybe MMO is not the best thing to play if you do not like other players interacting with you.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
Frank Pannon
Fearless Bandits
Warsmiths.
17
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 09:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
EVE is a
single shard
player driven
sandbox
where PVP is everywhere.
These are all essential for making it work, and make it special. It is cold and dark and violent, thus making success so much more rewarding.
I find these posts very alarming, and honestly hope CCP does shrug them off. This is NOT a question of new players against old ones, greenhorns against bittervets. It is a question of the survival of a game we all love and spend hours of our life with.
Honestly, never thought I would say this, but go play another game if this does not suit you.
|
Virginia Virdana
Envoy Fast Deployment
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 11:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Whilst I am a MASSIVE carebear, who likes nothing more than to pootle around missioning, shooting the odd rat and generally digging the scenery, even I understand that this is completely at my own risk, and I have lost my fair share of shinies.
However, the ongoing whinefest that is the forums is really starting to get on my wick. Anyone who has read even a single post on C&P should have firmly got the message that:
1) Eve is working as intended
2) You need to change your gameplay to reflect the environment, not vice versa
3) in doing so HTFU
4) if not, WoW is ---->
Which is why I now pootle around space checking d-scan in a cloacky, and paying attention. It's not rocket science.
Seriously. There is no other part of life where not being able to do something results in that thing being changed to reflect your inability to adapt. Darwin would weep...
I don't post often, but when I do, I do it with my main. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 12:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
honest harrington wrote:1: In every other game I know of there are multiple servers, with the dedicated PvP servers clearly marked.
I understand where you are confused, and I can help!
Hello, Welcome to EVE. There is only one server, and it is a PvP server.
Glad I could help!
|
Sir Lomax
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
New Eden Confederacy
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 14:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:We don't want players like you anyway.
Very simply put and correct.
To address the OP's points...
1. Eve has 1 "shard" and its a pvp "shard". Where its fought and the rules behind its fighting may change from sec to sec... but as a whole. The entire environment is in fact ALL PVP.
To address the majority of your wall post.
Without true adversity victory is meaningless. Adapt or die. |
Forum Clone 77777
State War Academy
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 15:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
EnslaverOfMinmatar wrote:
The only mmo with pve and pvp servers I know is AoC and it's so crappy that no one wants to play it, that's why it went f2p.
AoC was a PVP game with an option to play on a PVE server, in the beginning, new designer took over after its launcher and it went rapidly downhill ending up being another Wannabee O WoW.
It wouldnt fit for EVE to have a PVE server though, the PVE itself would get so utter boring and pointless that it would maybe have 2000 people (being generous) at first and ending with 0 players within a month.
Without PVP theres no need for missions, so if you remove PVP, why would people do missions? |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
116
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 15:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
PVE in EvE is low quality. Rats have no AI, mining is boring. Missions are always the same. Sleepers and Incursions make it slightly more interesting but these also end up as farmvilles. The PVE quality is way below that of most MMO's. CCP is bad a PVE content.
New players face numerous challenges and EvE is the sort of place where you learn stuff 'the hard way'. The OP's ideas of grieving, stealing, salvaging, etc. is vastly different from the majority of the game or CCP for that matter. Griefing is a bannable offense in EvE and doens't happen that often. But what the OP is describing is not griefing. |
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2012.06.07 16:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Actually as a carebear I find comments that without PvP people wouldn't mission - sorry but that's complete crap. Just because you may PvE to fund PvP doesn't mean everybody does......oh and I do PvP as well in small roams but some of us actually enjoy (I know - weird) doing the non-PvP stuff.
@ OP.....if you split the content Eve would die - it would be crap.....even though I have suffered the odd gank while mining and been scanned down in a mission I think you over exagerate the extent of the difficulty. The joy of Eve is that you can do what you like to earn isk....whether that is to fund your PvP habit or just 'cos you like collecting shiny ships - who cares - as long as it works for you. I for one would unsub if there were separate servers......if I wanted PvE only then I could play.....well some other MMO or whatever....being able to jump out of a mission ship and into a PvP ship to help some corp mates being attacked is a bloody good thrill - even if you are crap at PvP.
Just embrace the game, the people who put up with the odd gank and EARN their ISK get far more out of Eve than others do imho |
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