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The Plight of the Rifter

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Shadow Adanza Colonial Marines EVE Division Villore Accords 7	Posted - 2012.06.12 23:47:00 - [91] - Quote Give the Punisher a boost! The Punisher is the unquestioned lesser of all the other ships mentioned here! Even out the Punisher! All hail the future Punisher! Right now it is nowhere near its name. I'm just a Caldari pilot fighting for the Gallente in Minmatar and Amarr ships.
Mira Lynne State War Academy Caldari State 50	Posted - 2012.06.13 00:43:00 - [92] - Quote Aliaksandre wrote: No one is saying rifter should be king Aliaksandre wrote: Brawling ships with brawling fits should not kill a nimble kiter 9/10 times Winmatar should win because of Winmatar. Sorry, but it sounds alot like youre saying: Aliaksandre wrote: Rifter should be king Give me one good reason that Kiting ships should be 'I-Win' buttons that should have the right to defecate all over brawling ships. If anything it should be the other way around, as a reward to brawlers for having the balls to commit their ship to a fight, as opposed to 'Oh Dear! I may loose this one! I best run away, lest i break a Nail!' Aliaksandre wrote: lose to a tristan Tristan is pretty much pre-nerf Merlin, yes it can kill a Rifter, with about 3x as many SPs as the rifter pilot. Aliaksandre wrote: merlin and incursus can simply switch ammo to be a real brawler (void), and switch again to be a "kiter" (that kills a kiting rifter) with null. The rifter cannot do this If only there was some sort of ammo for projectiles, that increased their range in much the same way that Null increases blaster Range Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Bouh Revetoile The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva 23	Posted - 2012.06.13 08:29:00 - [93] - Quote Mira Lynne wrote: If only there was some sort of ammo for projectiles, that increased their range in much the same way that Null increases blaster Range And if only this weapon could benefit twice as more as any other weapon from module enhancing range... Versatility come to a price : you cannot do everything better than those who specialize on something. If you are used to this, this is because that was broken. And autocanon are not a kitting weapon of choice, arty or lasers are. Problem of kitting weapon is that they are prone to be outtrack at close range. You cannot have everything and the rifter do not deserve to win every fight with one fit. To kite, you should start by fitting a tracking enhancer for example. Oh, and about your actual fighting prowess : basically, what you are saying is that if your oponent is better than you and manage to get every advantage it can benefit from, he will win, but that was pretty obvious in fact. Same used to be said by blaster boat users : fight never start at 4km unless in a wormhole, and when slower than your oponent, you cannot go to point blanc range. That was an (imo bad) argument for (the imo bad idea of) blaster boat to become the fastest ship to allow them to reach their effective range. First thing we learn for solo pvp is how to wisely pick our fight. Rifter pilots seem to have forgoten this. You cannot win every fight with one fit.
Roosterton Eternal Frontier The-Machine 354	Posted - 2012.06.13 15:11:00 - [94] - Quote Wait, some people didn't crosstrain all frigates in anticipation for the AF buff?
Kalli Brixzat 55	Posted - 2012.06.13 16:10:00 - [95] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Wait, some people didn't crosstrain all frigates in anticipation for the AF buff? Oh, I did...though I was close to passing on the Amarr training since I see their frigates as the worst of the bunch for PvP.
Kyle Myr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 267	Posted - 2012.06.13 20:11:00 - [96] - Quote From something of an outsider perspective, it's interesting to see all this discussion focused on 1v1 scenarios. It's far from an invalid stance, and in fact may be common in modern post-Inferno FW world (that seems to be the engagement scenario this board focuses on most these days). I started out learning with larger 0.0 fleet combat and smaller 0.0 roams, with the odd very small bit of homeland defense work on the side. Since then, I've had a chance to see low sec war, high sec war, and a lot of smaller action stuff, but coming to this after having seen the others, I have slightly different priorities for fitting. I figure I can at least do my best to share this perspective, so people can consider a different angle Rifters are great, and we encourage our new players to train them, and fly them, and hand them out for free. This is fairly well known. I've personally assembled a few hundred Rifters (I have nothing on the king of space likes, Lyris Nairn). My first experience with significant combat beyond a few basic training missions and the odd newbie training exercise was flying a Rifter in the defense of DKUK about a year ago. I flew around, went after a bunch of Interdictors, and died horribly when a Claw decided he'd had enough of my shenanigans. It was chaotic and fun. Later, I actually proved useful by getting a warp-in on a sniper gang in a different fight on some undock, and continued to provide a warping when I was webbed, scrammed, and popped. Somewhere around this time, I moved to flying Stabbers. Our Rifter fitting is designed to be produced or purchased en masse for pennies, to lock down a target, to move quickly to get that tackle, and to have a salvager so newbies can make money on something besides the insurance from death. The fit is a deathtrap - it's got little EHP, can't really receive reps, and doesn't do great damage. However, a heroic tackle will get a new player a nice killmail, and a showering of ISK: 3x 200mm AC I 1x Salvager I 1x MWD I 1x Scram 1x Web 1x Cap Power Relay 2x Nanos 1x Reload of ammo in the cargo Given the priorities listed above, the rifter really is the best choice - it can fit a scram, web, and MWD, it gets 2 nanos and a cap mod to help people with lower skills run it longer, and it has capless weapons that do decent damage if you need to orbit your target at further than point-blank range (staying outside of smart bomb range is critical to frigate/destroyer gangs) Hopefully this adds some perspective to why other people love Rifters so much.
Stukkler Tian Haggis Humpers 5	Posted - 2012.06.14 01:06:00 - [97] - Quote Those of you complaining about the punisher obviously haven't flown the fat slicer fit. Also in a brawl the punishers only real problem is that it cant hold onto a smart opponent because of the lacking 3rd mid, however if you gave the punisher a mid for webs it would be retardely good at kiting inside scram range so its kind of a catch 22. also the goon above me makes a valid point you cant discount the versatility of a rifter when complaining about it.
Gitanmaxx Viziam Amarr Empire 36	Posted - 2012.06.14 04:09:00 - [98] - Quote Kyle Myr wrote: Strictly speaking, these changes did more to bring other ships in line with the Rifter than they did for making the Rifter in any way bad. Fixing the mixed slots disease on the Merlin is a welcome change for new players (though I do wish it had a spare slot left for a salvager). Punishers always felt ilke they had the worst end of the stick before, of the 4 types of decent newbie tackler (Incursus being the choice for the 4th racial pick). Now, there are compelling arguments to be made for fitting out all of these ships, where before the Rifter really had a strong edge over everything else with the exemption of the guy who made the best use of that one Warrior II that he possibly could. At the end of the day, the Rifter's speed advantage and great slot layout let it be fit a range of ways, many of which are still valid. I'm glad that the other frigates now have the opportunity to kill poorly fit battleships as well. Exactly. This is why I'm very happy with the direction of the rebalance, each t1 frig is now an equally viable option.
Dood Maker Ruimte Skip Moordenaar 2	Posted - 2012.06.14 08:10:00 - [99] - Quote I'm confused by the OP Question the same as others on here. I fly Amarr but have a great deal of respect to the Rifter and what it can do - To attack something in a solo fight you need to know what it can do and even I can fit it with using all the slots and still get kills. You will find that there are so many different great fits out there for this ship and only shield tanking the ship is well a bit of a waste. The biggest thing that people need to remember when fitting it is that it's a Minmitar ship = speed (hit and run is the name of the game) saying that there is the rupture (for another time) Your in a frigate so tank is limited. (Unless you 200/400mm plate it) so transversal is your biggest friend. A good pvp pilot blames himself for dying and learns from the mistake and will try his utmost to not do it again. Only a fool blames the equipment he is using. Don't blame the ship. Just stop fitting it like a moron. Adapt to change of events or sit there and die crying in the corner
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 55	Posted - 2012.06.14 08:31:00 - [100] - Quote Quote: Goon standard rifter fitting They work for goons or test because you get a lot of new players and can use them in masses. I don't know, I never liked that fit at all, even for newbies because it doesn't teach a terrible lot of anything other than 'I'm going for point I hope I don't die oh I died'. I know the rifter is kinda symbolic for goons so that's fair enough. Plus it leads on to welpcanes then maelstroms so it makes sense to get those ships trained on an alliance level. You can technically do a better job with a merlin (waay more hitpoints) or incursus (better slot layout and good hp just from a damage control). The rifter might not be the best fit anymore for alliances that don't train so heavily into minmatar.

Bouh Revetoile The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva 24	Posted - 2012.06.14 09:13:00 - [101] - Quote Smabs wrote: Quote: Goon standard rifter fitting I know the rifter is kinda symbolic for goons so that's fair enough. Plus it leads on to welpcanes then maelstroms so it makes sense to get those ships trained on an alliance level. You can technically do a better job with a merlin (waay more hitpoints) or incursus (better slot layout and good hp just from a damage control). The rifter might not be the best fit anymore for alliances that don't train so heavily into minmatar. Merlin or incursus are slower. Any little bit of speed is not really expandable when you want to get a tackle on something, and with 2M sp, you are prone to die anyway, be it in a merlin, incursus or rifter. Speed and sig is the minmatar thing with versatility, not pure firepower or amazing resilience, but they seem to had forgotten this too.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 55	Posted - 2012.06.14 09:29:00 - [102] - Quote Incursus is 3033 with an mwd, merlin 2814, rifter is 3088. The speed difference is actually really tiny. A rifter's base agility is actually worse than an incursus. The sig is admittedly better, but the goon rifter has half the hitpoints of an incursus just with a damage control, and less than 1/3rd of a rigless merlin with an mse and damage control. You sound like one of those people who fits 4 overdrives and 2 speed rigs onto their interceptors. Also 2 month old pilot can easily kill ceptors and maybe some faction frigs with a t1 frigate if it's been fitted up properly.
Delucian Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 23	Posted - 2012.06.14 21:43:00 - [103] - Quote Been having this discussion extensively with the guys I fly with, and have tested many of the setups listed here and many more. Love the Rifter, can it win against the new Merlin, Incursus, Punisher - yes. Can you do it from 500m, no. Against a well fit Merlin and a good pilot it has little chance. As said before, its tough to neut out a Merlin, and with a MSE and 2 webs speed becomes a nonexistant argument. You cant pull range in a Rifter now. Does the Incursus provide a more than viable replacement for the Rifter. Yep. Many of your tried and true Rifter style fits work on it quite well. Some of the adapted fits that really utilize its bonuses are tough as nails, put out good dps and can take on any frig, dessy's and many cruisers (kinda like the Rifter usta could). I flew the Rifter solo for a long time and really prefer it to all other frigs, but there is a point that you have to face the fact that a well fit Incursus or Merlin (well flown) will burn it down pretty fast. Is the Rifter still viable. Sure, you just hafta pick your prey and fly your butt off - as many have said its no longer a "set range at 500, press F1, F1, F3, F4 win" ship. Flown well, it still does pretty good 75% of the time. The other 25% of pilots were going to probably kill you regardless what you fly (that is where your skill - and mine - still suck). I would like to see a slight alignment to pull it a bit more in line. Not sure where that would be TBH, but it needs a bit of something to get it that probably 2-5% better to make it a real daily challenger to (all things equal) a Merlin or Incursus.
Myrkala Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition. 10	Posted - 2012.06.14 23:52:00 - [104] - Quote I've been looking at the Rifter vs the Merlin and Incursus and I have a feeling the Rifter could very well use a small speed boost, through reduced mass to get more boost from propulsion mods. And maybe a small CPU boost, like 3% or something. But mainly its the speed. While I was at it I also looked at the AFs, and is just me or did the Minmatar AFs get nerfed regarding speed?
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 55	Posted - 2012.06.15 08:28:00 - [105] - Quote I think the AF's are the same speed as before. Jaguar is pretty fast still at 2.9km/s without any speed mods. I think the jag just seems weak after the harpy/enyo/ishkur/hawk etc got buffed repeatedly. The DPS difference between a rifter and merlin/incursus is pretty big now, even when those ships fit rails or use null. I think the problem is that a rifter just doesn't have the gank and tank to keep up. Even with double gyros on a rifter you're still only getting 155dps and only 6km of falloff, whereas a neutron merlin has better range, better dps and much better tank.
X Gallentius Quantum Cats Syndicate 278	Posted - 2012.06.15 13:22:00 - [106] - Quote Delucian wrote: As said before, its tough to neut out a Merlin, and with a MSE and 2 webs speed becomes a nonexistant argument. You cant pull range in a Rifter now. If Merlin has MSE and two webs, then it has no prop mod or no point. Burn away with your overheated AB, or warp away dummy! Quote: Does the Incursus provide a more than viable replacement for the Rifter. Yep. Many of your tried and true Rifter style fits work on it quite well. Some of the adapted fits that really utilize its bonuses are tough as nails, put out good dps and can take on any frig, dessy's and many cruisers (kinda like the Rifter usta could). Incursus susceptible to neuts. Rifter isn't.
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 420	Posted - 2012.06.15 23:51:00 - [107] - Quote Quote: Incursus susceptible to neuts. Rifter isn't. This leads into another point worth mentioning - You cannot just balance ships based on 1v1s against other ships in the same class. A Merlin will have a gigantic sig radius and slow speed which makes it easy to hit by larger ships .The Incursus is better off, but is cap-reliant and has a larger sig. The rifter is not cap reliant and can reasonably fit a nos. Also, damage type flexibility.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 56	Posted - 2012.06.16 02:08:00 - [108] - Quote Sig radius matters, yeah. Even then I'd say the vigil is superior for getting a long point at least - especially when it's actually faster than some interceptors. Still, having fought a decently fit rifter yesterday (and crow at the same time) it just wasn't even a contest. It's not just 1v1. The merlin and incursus now make good solo ships because they are fast and have the dps to kill frigates and interceptors quickly. I feel like the rifter is kinda lacking in comparison, although that might just be cookie cutter fits becoming outdated.
Ogopogo Mu United Highsec Front The 99 Percent 86	Posted - 2012.06.16 04:40:00 - [109] - Quote Having flown the prepatch Merlin pretty extensively I'm slightly surprised that Null S/kite is still being touted as a supercounter to Barrage S/kite. With the loss of the optimal range bonus and, yes, the rocket hardpoints it seems like Merlins would be now weaker at 7.5km kiting than they were before. Does the damage bonus/magstab make up for it? Note that I flew MWD merlins with neutrons for this very reason, but neutrons are harder to fit with an MWD and tank with 3 blaster hardpoints without dropping the extender to F-S9. I realize this is not an issue with an AB merlin.
Major Killz State Protectorate Caldari State 13	Posted - 2012.06.16 16:20:00 - [110] - Quote @ Above poster The Merlin and Rifter now do around the same damage @ 8,000m with null or barrage. The only advatange the Rifter has left is range dictation, in terms of higher velocity. Same with the Incursus versus Rifter, in terms of damage projection. Increasing damage alone won't enable the Rifter to catch up. Another mid slot + damage or falloff increase would. Possibly gaining a fourth turret too. If the Rifter was also able to preform capacitor warfare @ the level of the Punisher. That would be a fix. Even the Punisher has it over the Rifter in st8 tank and gank setups. The lack of mid slot limits the Punisher from being more powerful than it is @ the moment. Smabs is cute <3

Delucian Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 24	Posted - 2012.06.19 17:17:00 - [111] - Quote X Gallentius wrote: If Merlin has MSE and two webs, then it has no prop mod or no point. Burn away with your overheated AB, or warp away dummy! I misspoke - was considering some fights I have had with either armor Merlins or with short range kiting Merlins that are running AB/Scram/Web/Web and CDFE rigs - the armor Merlin especially has a good chance with this setup and either Neutrons or Rails. Quote: The Merlin and Rifter now do around the same damage @ 8,000m with null and barrage. The only advatange the Rifter has left is range dictation, in terms of velocity. Same with the Incursus versus Rifter, in terms of damage projection. Increasing damage alone won't enable the Rifter to catch up. Another mid slot + damage or falloff increase would. Possibly gaining a fourth turret too. If the Rifter was also able to preform capacitor warfare @ the level of the Punisher. That would be a fix. Even the Punisher has it over the Rifter in st8 tank and gank setups. The lack of mid slot limits the Punisher from being more powerful than it is @ the moment. This is probably the best summation of the issue so far and gives a good basis for a bit of balance. Essentially, CCP is not going to be changing the Rifter any time soon (if at all). It can still be a solid tackler and with arties (if you like a slow kill) can kite out quite well.
Jones Bones Imperial Outlaws 106	Posted - 2012.06.19 19:51:00 - [112] - Quote Merlins and Incursus are super easy to kill with larger ships though. A single medium neut ruins the dps of the Merlin and the tank on the Incursus.


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