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Projectile Weapons - Balancing

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.24 06:06:00 - [1] Very nice start but needs more than this. Glad to see you are trying for racial balance rather than nerfing everything to be the same. 1. Arty Tracking: we have lowest range, fastest ships and our primary targets are small ships... all of this suggest we should have high tracking but instead we get the worst tracking of all long range weapons. 2. 1600mm arty: whatever u call it we need a 3rd tier artillery, with this plus the tracking computers and falloff fix minmatar will be acceptable in fleets again. 3. You still need to look at our ships. The Maelstrom doesn't feel like a minmatar ship, it's got no speed, doesn't focus on alpha, zero flexibility/utility.... feels like a amarr ship with projectiles and shield. WE NEED A WAY TO FOCUS ALPHA. There isn't a ship that really feels like a true alpha beast in our race (aside from thrasher) nor is there a way for us to focus alpha over dps, with max skills and mods u can increase alpha by about 150% while you can increase dps by about 475%. Something like letting gyro's be scripted for rof or dmg would make us able to actually focus on our specialities (I know this wouldn't work because of stacking formula). ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.29 06:42:00 - [2] hmm theres one thing you said there that scares me. Quote: We don't want too many "one volleys" on our hands I can understand wanting to keep it balanced but this just comes out wrong imo. You refocus minmatar to be all about alpha then you say we don't actually want alpha to be useful? What's the point of being focused into an area if it isn't any use, it's like a nano naglfar, or a 360km range rokh. CCP realy need to start making things like range, flexibility, tracking and alpha matter in a battle if they want to keep eve interesting. I really think these changes are a good move in the direction to make eve more than just dps/tank but then saying something like that gives mixed impressions. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.30 12:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Naomi Knight ...also why matar ships are the fastes / fastest locking... So if I was to look at say the maelstrom it would be a very fast bs? fastest of it's tier easily right? OR at least the cepters if I was to get the fastest minmatar cepter and fit it with a mwd and speed mods and stick a claymore in gang to speed it up nothing could catch up to it if similarly fit right? And the hictor the king of tackle that's always used for it's fast locking infini point in low sec gate camps, we'd have a clear advantage over the other races lock time with that ship right? these should hint that something wrong more than just the turrets. Also these are not insignificant exceptions, the hictor and intercepter are where we should be shining, shining like the apoc in fleet fights. instead it's a challenge for us to even hold our lead in the areas we specialize in. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.09.30 23:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Seishi Maru I extended it to 194 seconds,, tiem a maesltrom would have fired 13 shots and last time before 8 tachyon APOC surpasses the maesltrom forever. That chart doe snto take into account RELOAD TIME! I infact didn't checked how many shots fit in a 1400mm after the changes. So if still only 10, please disconsider the last part of the graph. MORE DISCREETE DAMAGE Nice graph but I have two things to say/ask 1. That graph maps dps to alpha, showing minmatar have a early advantage then it flips back and forth for 100 seconds. However showing minmatar do well early on shouldn't be a surprise it's about as suprising as showing the rokh can hit further than the tempest, or comparing the tracking of a tempest/apoc/mega, or comparing the speed of tier 3 bs's (actually this one is a bit suprising as minmatar come 2nd). 2. Could you please please add a 8 tach abbaddon to the graph ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.02 23:55:00 - [5] Please make the alpha scale properly small 25% med 50% Large 75% XLarge 100% And please also APPLY THESE CHANGES TO THE POS GUNS as well. also, this change though unintentional will come out as a slight nerf to the nag since it needs to use that long range ammo.... ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.03 23:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Dinamita Tona IMO first we should clarify what or which role minmatar ships with arties shall have and if alpha is there to kill or just for theoretical biggest alpha in game lets assume that minmatar ships are excellent hit and run ships in that case they should be able to warp in, lock, shoot and then run away if they have a chance actually more or less thats precise description of minmatar tactics so following that assumption, for example tempest should alfa any untanked ship to its class - however, with maxed skills his ROF should be around 1 or even 1 min 30 seconds minute for 1400 howitzers but it should be 90% capable of doing fatal or criple shoot in 1 volley, from 50 km then and only then minmatar ships could eventualy full fill their description it needs also to have adjusted agillity to allow chance to get away, of course skilled ceptor from that range could catch it i know people may whine about that but that would bring new dimension to this game and don't forget i mentioned untanked battleship and long rof How bout this: arty get same damage bonus they get now on sisi rof stays same as on tq. clip size is lowered, reload time is increased to around 1 min to bring our dps in line. This means rather than after the first voley it starts going back and forth on who's best our advantage lasts all the way up to the first reload (should be about 1 min) then dps has taken a clear advantage. course this does have it's problems... really have to pick your ammo right as you don't wanna change it half way through a clip. Could also add a skill that decreases reload time so we have an equivelant to controlled bursts finally. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.08 14:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Dinamita Tona Apart of FACT that we WON'T agree what changes for minmatar ships are best ones (that is due the FACT that each of us use ships in HIS OWN way for his own task, that's direct consequence of so known versatility of minmatar ships not good for anything but can be used for anything) Biggest problem is that DEV's have no clue how to fix problems arised since Nerfing era. If minmatar ships shall have any bigger role in future of this game, their ships SHOULD be specialized like for every other race. Someone already mentioned - dedicated laser, missile, blaster, drone boats. Also dedicated active, pasive shield boats, dedicated active buffer armor boats. There is 0 dedicated minmatar ships. There were dedicated nano ships, but you know what happened. Long ago tempest was fearsome ship, vaga same. Today they are only shadows. On other hand versatility on minmatar ships is not always there, some ships, for example sleipnir have bonuses that may be aplied only in non versatile fit. Of course it can be fited otherwise, but then 1 of bonuses get wasted. Anyway dear DEV's, first of all think exactly what for minmatar's are. What is / should be their role. Caldari are PVE, gallente dps, amar tank. Minmatars versatile but under conditions. As stated here, minmatars need to have **** load of skills at highest level just to undock. And ill say again, SISI changes are just cosmetic ones. So what is needed to be done? - first of all neutral DEV's standings towards all races ( we all know that is not case atm ) - then complete neutral review of current mechanics - then suggest changes that may actually improve things - then test it on SISI. I have feeling we had only process 4 here. Processes preceding were lost somewhere on the way. 1 of good changes would be dropping shield boost bonus on all minmatar ships for something more useful like damage bonus. So that ships could be really versatile as you implicate. this. These changes are a great start but the fact they are only half done not even carrying up to XL speaks something to me about how much effort is being given to minmatar. You cannot leave the job half done. One of the first things you learn to do in eve is to specialise in a specific area. Minmatar are worst at specializing in the game, if you look at ships purely in terms of their primary function any sort of specialized ship we come in last. this flexibiity is a dieing trait, either make it more useful or actually make us specialize. right now closest we have to a speciality is speed and the fastest ship in the game is amarr. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.28 21:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Typhado3 on 28/10/2009 21:47:25 First off more projectile changes \o/ CCP Nozh may soon become my favorite dev (sorry but you still havn't beat Abraxas yet) Originally by: Caldor Mansi stuff + graphs about tracking on previous page This would be a great way to top off arty imo. not sure if it's asking too much but most complaints are about AC so I can hope. Only other reasonable changes I can think of are making sure the XL weapons also get effected by the changes (super alpha nag 4tw lol) and the pos batteries getting boosted to be more in the same style. Originally by: Ulstan I can't help but think hybrids are really going to need a look after projectiles, if projectiles wind up with no cap use, ability to switch damage types (hybrids are locked into kin/therm) and ability to reload ammo types in 2s. This I agree with, both blasters and rails need some loving. However I honestly have never used hybrids, can fly every race but gallente and my caldari skills are more ewar/logistics/missiles. Keeping with their racial strengths of super range and high dps at point blank could be nice though so I'll throw a couple random crazy ideas out (yeah these probably aren't good). blasters: half their range, 50% bonus to dps, double their tracking rails: make it so you can lock out to the range that the rokh can hit at. ammo: change it so instead of being -50% to +60% it's -75% to +100% fiddle with dps to match. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.29 08:05:00 - [9] Originally by: Harotak These changes will fix large autocannons (which are underpowered) but I fear they will make medium and small ACs too strong, especialy compared to blasters. To be fair I think blasters need a bit more range and tracking. I really disagree with the range part there. blasters are supposed to be the point blank weapon system, minmatar are designed to kite them that is how we win in 1v1's. If blasters got their range boosted kiting would just be countered by changing ammo. What they need is more damage and lots more tracking. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.29 09:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Typhado3 on 29/10/2009 09:54:05 Edited by: Typhado3 on 29/10/2009 09:52:30 Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Originally by: Harotak These changes will fix large autocannons (which are underpowered) but I fear they will make medium and small ACs too strong, especialy compared to blasters. To be fair I think blasters need a bit more range and tracking. They already are. This statistic is quite meaningful: it is very recent (rvb 2 is 3 weeks old) and with a very large dataset (red+blue have had 3 times the kills of the next top killer for the last 3 weeks). Don't be fooled by the punisher and the lasers on that page: most punishers fit ACs, and most small laser kills come from coercers and medium lasers used on bigger ships (maller, myrmidon, moa, ferox...). Blue seem to prefer gallente ships, and if you add the two stats, various ACs end up being the top 6 or 7 weapons. They are already predominant, and they're getting buffed. Diversity will now get even worse. I already fill up my weapons with fusion when I undock in my amarr ships (well, apart from the lolmen). Guess I should be happy, fusion's getting buffed... umm minmatar are supposed to be the best at solo and great at small ships, if you look at the whole game you'll realise this. That kb is all about small ships and small engagmenets so minmatar doing well there shouldn't be a suprise at all. It would be like comparing ecm to TP it's part of racial balance. I'm also not saying there isn't an imbalance in the frigates, in fact I can think of at least a couple imabalances in the frigates off the top of my head You also seem to be stretching a little too far "... various ACs end up being the top 6 or 7 weapons.", is this worded wrong or am I missunderstanding it or something. AC may be good but seriously not gonna happen like that. Lastly about fitting AC's on amarr ships. tbh I'm not suprised, minmatar guns (AC in particular) are the easiest to fit on non-racial ships thx to fittings, no cap etc. Amarr can also benefit easily from this as they often only have cap bonus to guns so if another weapon system would work better than lasers in this situation it sorta makes sense to swap. Not something I'm particularly fond of either this whole idea of giving minmatar bs's the role of alpha strike still kinda has the problem that any race can fit arty and do the same alpha, and often pull off better tank than the mael. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.29 19:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Typhado3 on 29/10/2009 19:51:55 Originally by: AstroPhobic I've seen a lot of conjecture in this thread over falloff numbers and I say: what for? A vargur (falloff bonused pve ship) using excessive amounts of range mods (derp) with barrage can hit 102km of falloff. So what? A vanilla ole apoc can hit further with full damage. A wolf with tracking mods and a falloff bonus can hit 22km of falloff, and this is absurd? A pulseader can hit 17km or so with full damage and having 22km of falloff is somehow imbalanced? I think it's important to realize no matter how high these numbers get, they're on a curve. You're not doing 200 dps at 20km in a wolf. You're not doing 800 dps at 100km in a vargur. Amarr ships will still have more ehp and more dps at range, exactly like it should be. Minmatar should be the solo ship of choice. Minmatar will continue to lack in areas such as ehp, locking range and sensor strength. I think the changes put autos right where they need to be (hell, they're practically MY changes). The tempest and muninn still fail, though. And re: phoon/maelstrom: these ships thrive not because of autos, but because of torps and a massive tank respectively. The maelstrom is actually lacking IMO. Sure it's great in lowsec, but outside it's mobility and range are severly lacking, and it has somewhat of the faildrake syndrome. Tanks don't help you kill your enemy, damage does. this And when arguing about these please remember that Arty still exist and spare them a thought before you start screeming nerf because minmatar are finally good in some circumstance. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
Typhado3 Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.	Posted - 2009.10.30 06:48:00 - [12] There is one thing I must say here. The majority of the changes seem to be aimed at AC yet the weapon that needed the most love was arty? I don't have enough time (damn rl) to do extensive testing but reducing some of the AC buffs and giving arty a tracking buff or something along those lines might be nice. Also there's still plenty of problems out there, and a few inconsistencies. My personal pet peeve: The claw, the fastest ship of the speed race (ignoring lol 100mn vagas) has such a slim speed advantage over it's amarr equivelant even has less agility thx to minmatars putting weight on. If pushed to their limits with overheated mwd and a claymore the amarr one goes faster, this isn't a common situation just a example of how fricking close the speed of these two ships is. ------------------------------ Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls

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