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Droidster
   |
Posted - 2004.10.26 03:20:00 -
[1]
I just tried the Shiva test server including the new market interface.
* Hundreds of my orders were automatically cancelled on test server because my player lacked the necessary skills. If this policy holds when Shiva goes live many thousands of orders will disappear.
* No quicksell. Maybe I missed it but there seemed to be no quicksell option. The player has to enter an amount and then look and see if there is a "best matching order" in the dialog.
* You have to enter the correct price. To sell your goods you have to eyeball the "best matchable" and then enter that price as your ask. If you enter a value below the best match it will sell at the inferior price (unlike the current system which automatically gives you the best price). If you enter an amount above the best matchable your attempted sell will fail.
* Broker fees up the wazoo. You get charged a "broker fee" of 1% on every transaction (slightly reducible by skills) plus taxes. If you screw up and the trade fails you still pay a fee and taxes. If you put out an order and it never gets filled you still lose because you must pay the fee up front. Forget large speculative orders.
* The buy escrow is for real. If you have no skills you have to put 100% of the buy amount into escrow. Say goodbye to casual traders. Basically anyone who wants to be a trader must train up to level 5 in a skill to eliminate this.
* Minimums are no longer invisible. From a buyers perspective it is a big improvement that you can now see minimum trade amounts. Also, all the orders are visible so you can see the kind of high price/high volume orders that may get hidden in the current system. Also the expiration times are visible.
* "Advance Market Info" gone. You can no longer right click on an item and go directly to the market page for that item.
* Visibility Effects. The new visibility rules have some bizarre effects. For example, you can no longer look at the market summary to tell whether you can sell a good or what the best price may be. This is because there may be orders you cannot see because the player who placed the order does not have good enough visibility. You have to open up the sell/buy dialog and examine the "best matchable" to see what the best price is now.
* Trade from space. Being able to use the market in space is a big help obviously.
* The new folder style action for item selection speeds up interface substantially. Nice.
*** Overall Comments ***
The changes will definitely create a small class of traders or trade-capable players because it will take several weeks minimum to reach the skill levels necessary, especially vis-a-vis the escrow requirement. Professional traders will become a reality.
Operating the market has become somewhat harder. Novices will be even more confused now that quick sell is gone. Use of the trash will go way up.
The new barriers to trade will create a huge contraction in the market. I didn't see a single player order for any of the minerals except tritanium in Heimatar for example, and even then it was only 2 orders. In fact, virtually all the orders were NPC, station-only orders. Of course, you can say that is because it was the test server. Nevertheless, it seems likely the number of player orders, both buy and sell, will plunge, especially in the beginning. The effect this will have on prices is obvious. Scary.
Winners: Traders will probably see a big increase in wealth due to reduced competition and a new privileged status. Big corporations will be thanking their lucky stars they don't depend on the market for mins and ships.
Losers: Newbies and freelance miners are going to be facing a new reality where they get a lot less for their mins and have to truck them farther to sell.
[Note: you can try the new interface yourself by going to:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/shiva.asp
activating your test account, waiting until it gets activated, then following the instructions for making a shiva client.]
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 03:20:00 -
[2]
I just tried the Shiva test server including the new market interface.
* Hundreds of my orders were automatically cancelled on test server because my player lacked the necessary skills. If this policy holds when Shiva goes live many thousands of orders will disappear.
* No quicksell. Maybe I missed it but there seemed to be no quicksell option. The player has to enter an amount and then look and see if there is a "best matching order" in the dialog.
* You have to enter the correct price. To sell your goods you have to eyeball the "best matchable" and then enter that price as your ask. If you enter a value below the best match it will sell at the inferior price (unlike the current system which automatically gives you the best price). If you enter an amount above the best matchable your attempted sell will fail.
* Broker fees up the wazoo. You get charged a "broker fee" of 1% on every transaction (slightly reducible by skills) plus taxes. If you screw up and the trade fails you still pay a fee and taxes. If you put out an order and it never gets filled you still lose because you must pay the fee up front. Forget large speculative orders.
* The buy escrow is for real. If you have no skills you have to put 100% of the buy amount into escrow. Say goodbye to casual traders. Basically anyone who wants to be a trader must train up to level 5 in a skill to eliminate this.
* Minimums are no longer invisible. From a buyers perspective it is a big improvement that you can now see minimum trade amounts. Also, all the orders are visible so you can see the kind of high price/high volume orders that may get hidden in the current system. Also the expiration times are visible.
* "Advance Market Info" gone. You can no longer right click on an item and go directly to the market page for that item.
* Visibility Effects. The new visibility rules have some bizarre effects. For example, you can no longer look at the market summary to tell whether you can sell a good or what the best price may be. This is because there may be orders you cannot see because the player who placed the order does not have good enough visibility. You have to open up the sell/buy dialog and examine the "best matchable" to see what the best price is now.
* Trade from space. Being able to use the market in space is a big help obviously.
* The new folder style action for item selection speeds up interface substantially. Nice.
*** Overall Comments ***
The changes will definitely create a small class of traders or trade-capable players because it will take several weeks minimum to reach the skill levels necessary, especially vis-a-vis the escrow requirement. Professional traders will become a reality.
Operating the market has become somewhat harder. Novices will be even more confused now that quick sell is gone. Use of the trash will go way up.
The new barriers to trade will create a huge contraction in the market. I didn't see a single player order for any of the minerals except tritanium in Heimatar for example, and even then it was only 2 orders. In fact, virtually all the orders were NPC, station-only orders. Of course, you can say that is because it was the test server. Nevertheless, it seems likely the number of player orders, both buy and sell, will plunge, especially in the beginning. The effect this will have on prices is obvious. Scary.
Winners: Traders will probably see a big increase in wealth due to reduced competition and a new privileged status. Big corporations will be thanking their lucky stars they don't depend on the market for mins and ships.
Losers: Newbies and freelance miners are going to be facing a new reality where they get a lot less for their mins and have to truck them farther to sell.
[Note: you can try the new interface yourself by going to:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/shiva.asp
activating your test account, waiting until it gets activated, then following the instructions for making a shiva client.]
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Asharee Intrefer
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 10:00:00 -
[3]
I have only looked briefly at the market. Is buy orders only limited by the escrow cost, or is there also some sort of limit to the number of buy orders you can have?
|
Asharee Intrefer
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 10:00:00 -
[4]
I have only looked briefly at the market. Is buy orders only limited by the escrow cost, or is there also some sort of limit to the number of buy orders you can have?
|
Ribbo
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 11:45:00 -
[5]
i think because theres not a lot of things on the market it's a bit confusing at the moment, personally the hardest thing i found was how to BUY something there was no "BUY" button, confused me for ages untill i clicked on a >> arrow and it appreared, most confusing, the seller and the buyer are going to have a time of it let me tell you. I also found it a bit hard to actually find out where the location of the item i bought was.. that could lead a lot of people to buy stuff from aunenen (or like area) without knowing it. (unless there was a way to find out and i didnt know).
|
Ribbo
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 11:45:00 -
[6]
i think because theres not a lot of things on the market it's a bit confusing at the moment, personally the hardest thing i found was how to BUY something there was no "BUY" button, confused me for ages untill i clicked on a >> arrow and it appreared, most confusing, the seller and the buyer are going to have a time of it let me tell you. I also found it a bit hard to actually find out where the location of the item i bought was.. that could lead a lot of people to buy stuff from aunenen (or like area) without knowing it. (unless there was a way to find out and i didnt know).
|
Kaladryn
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 20:17:00 -
[7]
Um, why not just train up the market skills before Shiva release?
Considering the tinny number of people outside of the order maximum, I don't see any of these above items becoming a problem...
Kaladryn |
Kaladryn
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 20:17:00 -
[8]
Um, why not just train up the market skills before Shiva release?
Considering the tinny number of people outside of the order maximum, I don't see any of these above items becoming a problem...
Kaladryn |
Shakul
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 22:09:00 -
[9]
the removal of quicksell will be annoying
Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay. |
Shakul
|
Posted - 2004.10.26 22:09:00 -
[10]
the removal of quicksell will be annoying
Auction your items for isk, works sort of like ebay. |
A Brr
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 10:45:00 -
[11]
Trade skills are now in for a long time. They hit TQ at the same day as the advanced learning skills. If you have started training advanced learning to l4 right after release, you now have enough time training trade skills. I already got all advanced learning skills at l4, and i am now training procurement l4.
And i dont have problems buying and selling on singularity (except the most recent market failures).
And yes - beeing good at something (miner, producer, hunter, trader,... ) requires skills in eve.
|
A Brr
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 10:45:00 -
[12]
Trade skills are now in for a long time. They hit TQ at the same day as the advanced learning skills. If you have started training advanced learning to l4 right after release, you now have enough time training trade skills. I already got all advanced learning skills at l4, and i am now training procurement l4.
And i dont have problems buying and selling on singularity (except the most recent market failures).
And yes - beeing good at something (miner, producer, hunter, trader,... ) requires skills in eve.
|
Droidster
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 15:13:00 -
[13]
People keep talking about all the great opportunity to learn the trade skills.
First of all any newbie has zero skills and a bunch of priorities that are a lot higher than learning trade skills. Right now newbies can dabble in trade from the get go but after Shiva in most cases it will be several months before they will have time to get to level 5 in the escrow skill--virtually a requirement for meaningful trading.
Secondly, for a lot of people doing casual trading now, spending a month in trading training just isn't worth it. They are more interested spending that month getting battleship skills, or electronics upgrades 5 so they can fly covert ops, or high speed maneovering 5 for an interceptor, or whatever. All these casual traders are just going to say, "forget it".
For anyone with other priorities (which is practically everyone except dedicated traders) dropping everything and spending all of November getting to Marketing 5 is not likely.
So, just saying oh well nothing will happen because everybody will just spend a month training up is BS.
You know when Shiva comes and all the thousands of orders currently on the market disappear and every miner in tarnation starts whining I think I'll just tell them: hey no worries everybody just train Marketing to level 5 and all the orders will magically reappear.
(I might also add that if you haven't noticed the order density has already dropped significantly even though there has been no drop in player count. Dimwit Miner response: that's because the war in the north is over. Right. Just keep telling yourself that.)
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Droidster
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 15:13:00 -
[14]
People keep talking about all the great opportunity to learn the trade skills.
First of all any newbie has zero skills and a bunch of priorities that are a lot higher than learning trade skills. Right now newbies can dabble in trade from the get go but after Shiva in most cases it will be several months before they will have time to get to level 5 in the escrow skill--virtually a requirement for meaningful trading.
Secondly, for a lot of people doing casual trading now, spending a month in trading training just isn't worth it. They are more interested spending that month getting battleship skills, or electronics upgrades 5 so they can fly covert ops, or high speed maneovering 5 for an interceptor, or whatever. All these casual traders are just going to say, "forget it".
For anyone with other priorities (which is practically everyone except dedicated traders) dropping everything and spending all of November getting to Marketing 5 is not likely.
So, just saying oh well nothing will happen because everybody will just spend a month training up is BS.
You know when Shiva comes and all the thousands of orders currently on the market disappear and every miner in tarnation starts whining I think I'll just tell them: hey no worries everybody just train Marketing to level 5 and all the orders will magically reappear.
(I might also add that if you haven't noticed the order density has already dropped significantly even though there has been no drop in player count. Dimwit Miner response: that's because the war in the north is over. Right. Just keep telling yourself that.)
_____________________________________________
I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK. |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 16:33:00 -
[15]
Look into my eye's.Repeat after me.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
OK, now you know.
I will say if you think the game of Eve will end you got another thing coming. People will fill the void Droid. Players will find thier niche!
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
When I snap my fingers you will remeber everything!
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 16:33:00 -
[16]
Look into my eye's.Repeat after me.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
OK, now you know.
I will say if you think the game of Eve will end you got another thing coming. People will fill the void Droid. Players will find thier niche!
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
Trader specialization is good.
When I snap my fingers you will remeber everything!
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Moadyb
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 22:13:00 -
[17]
I have seen this crap before in other mmo's. The trend to 'fix' stuff that is fine and make it confusing and complicated to use.
The new trade skills are unessesary and serve no purpose other than hurt eve in the long run - new players will have a really hard time with this ****.
repeat after me:
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
|
Moadyb
|
Posted - 2004.10.28 22:13:00 -
[18]
I have seen this crap before in other mmo's. The trend to 'fix' stuff that is fine and make it confusing and complicated to use.
The new trade skills are unessesary and serve no purpose other than hurt eve in the long run - new players will have a really hard time with this ****.
repeat after me:
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
New trade skills suck
|
pardux
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 04:37:00 -
[19]
 new trade skills = annoying
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
and what does that escrow skill do
and does anyone know how long it takes do be able to have ~20 sell orders and visibility skill lvl5? this will probably take away month of training from me
hope someone can answer
Fluffy carebear
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
pardux
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 04:37:00 -
[20]
new trade skills = annoying
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
and what does that escrow skill do
and does anyone know how long it takes do be able to have ~20 sell orders and visibility skill lvl5? this will probably take away month of training from me
hope someone can answer
Fluffy carebear
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 13:23:00 -
[21]
 Quote:
does anyone know how long it takes do be able to have ~20 sell orders
Trade skill is 4 orders. Retail is 8. Wholesale is 16.
You start with 5.
Trade 4 will give you 16. Soo we talking less than a week. Me at 26 cha its 3 days.
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Harisdrop
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 13:23:00 -
[22]
Quote:
does anyone know how long it takes do be able to have ~20 sell orders
Trade skill is 4 orders. Retail is 8. Wholesale is 16.
You start with 5.
Trade 4 will give you 16. Soo we talking less than a week. Me at 26 cha its 3 days.
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
Moadyb
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 17:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Me at 26 cha its 3 days.
No wonder u like the new skills 
|
Moadyb
|
Posted - 2004.10.29 17:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Me at 26 cha its 3 days.
No wonder u like the new skills
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2004.10.30 15:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: pardux
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
{Joke, not troll}
At least there will be something more you can use carebears for instead of the usual "clay pigeon".
"PULL!!!"
But just as you think not everyone should be able to jump into a bs in the first week of gameplay why do people think that economic activity shouldn't have some requirements?
There's enough ability in each person to dabble but now if someone wants to be serious about doing sales, and I have had over 100 open sell orders at one time, well they have to be willing to make the trade off.
{23 charisma hunh? About time that paid off.} |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2004.10.30 15:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: pardux
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
{Joke, not troll}
At least there will be something more you can use carebears for instead of the usual "clay pigeon".
"PULL!!!"
But just as you think not everyone should be able to jump into a bs in the first week of gameplay why do people think that economic activity shouldn't have some requirements?
There's enough ability in each person to dabble but now if someone wants to be serious about doing sales, and I have had over 100 open sell orders at one time, well they have to be willing to make the trade off.
{23 charisma hunh? About time that paid off.} |
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2004.10.30 16:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: pardux
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
Then you aren't a trader. Deal with it, far too many people can do far too much in this game already.
Combat characters can refine, haulers can fight, traders can do damn near everything.
Specialisation is good.
|
Dianabolic
|
Posted - 2004.10.30 16:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: pardux
i need to train trade skills when i could be training other more important skills
Then you aren't a trader. Deal with it, far too many people can do far too much in this game already.
Combat characters can refine, haulers can fight, traders can do damn near everything.
Specialisation is good.
|
MajorGeneral Ponsonby
|
Posted - 2004.10.31 17:41:00 -
[29]
Specialisation might be good, but these trade changes SUCK. I'm probably the one with the most orders in the whole game (2000 or so, how can you count). And I will NOT learn any of these new skills. Whats the point, even if I learn them all, 170 orders? Tax? Money upfront? You gotta be kidding me.
The market was what I found most fascinating in this game, but now...screw trading.
|
MajorGeneral Ponsonby
|
Posted - 2004.10.31 17:41:00 -
[30]
Specialisation might be good, but these trade changes SUCK. I'm probably the one with the most orders in the whole game (2000 or so, how can you count). And I will NOT learn any of these new skills. Whats the point, even if I learn them all, 170 orders? Tax? Money upfront? You gotta be kidding me.
The market was what I found most fascinating in this game, but now...screw trading.
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