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Lucia Wilber
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.10.02 21:36:00 -
[1]
Does anyone else think you should be allowed to inject a skill as long as you have the prerequisites trained? I don't see this as being a problem. The only issue I see is people injecting a skill, then canceling the prerequisite. Some people might say the skills should turn back into books, but that would make it possible to use it as a method of safely transporting expensive skill books through 0.0, or even by using a jump clone. In this case, I think they should not be able to cancel any skills that are prerequisites for skills that have been injected unless those skills are canceled first, and doing so should cause them to lose the book(s) they injected, rather than using it as a cheap way of transporting books (inject a bunch of skills, go somewhere, then "uninject" them to get the books back).
Example:
"WARNING! You currently have injected skills that require the skill or skills you are attempting to cancel. If you proceed, THE INJECTED SKILLS WILL BE LOST! You will not receive the books you used to inject these skills and will have to buy them again! ARE YOU SURE YOU WISH TO CANCEL TRAINING?"
Something like that, for example.
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Mona X
Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.10.02 21:51:00 -
[2]
Or don't let train single SP until prereqs are met...
-- This "Time Flux Detected" crap is ****ing annoying. |
Lucia Wilber
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.10.02 22:11:00 -
[3]
That's an even better idea.
Let players inject skills regardless of prerequisites, and just prevent training unless all of the prereqs are met.
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Laruant Wiggins
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.03 01:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lucia Wilber Does anyone else think you should be allowed to inject a skill as long as you have the prerequisites trained?
I'm confused, this is the way it has been working for me. Or is it that you are wanting too inject before the prerequisite is finished? Therefore not trained.
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.10.03 04:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lucia Wilber Let players inject skills regardless of prerequisites, and just prevent training unless all of the prereqs are met.
Signed, this is how it should be.
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Rock urSocksoff
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.10.03 05:06:00 -
[6]
Give them their training queue, I said, and they will still find ways to whine. I see I was right.
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Badmin
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Posted - 2009.10.03 06:34:00 -
[7]
No. Just no.
This leads itself to so many programming faults and issues in understandings, not to mention the thousands of people that would misinterpret the message or meaning and be problematic that it would be a nightmare.
24 hours for skills to be placed, i'm not quite comprehensive how people do not undersatnd how to use it.
Ill lay out the in visual format below just in case.
(--------------24 hours------------------) short skill, short skill, short skill,LOOOOOOONNNNGGG SKILLLL
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DarthCaboose
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Posted - 2009.10.03 17:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Badmin No. Just no.
This leads itself to so many programming faults and issues in understandings, not to mention the thousands of people that would misinterpret the message or meaning and be problematic that it would be a nightmare.
24 hours for skills to be placed, i'm not quite comprehensive how people do not undersatnd how to use it.
Ill lay out the in visual format below just in case.
(--------------24 hours------------------) short skill, short skill, short skill,LOOOOOOONNNNGGG SKILLLL
Programming faults? Issues in understanding?
I don't think this well relates to the question at hand; allowing people to train skills in the queue at the time right after their prerequisites finish (as opposed to, say, getting up at 3 AM to inject and add the new skill book to the training queue, just because the game didn't allow you to do so).
If anything, implementing something like what Lucia Wilber discussed would be quite easy to do; the caveat is that you won't be able to add any new implants or change your skill training queue without a loss until all the prereqs are done and the skillbook is safely in your head.
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atoninothemighty
X-BIG Infrastructure
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Posted - 2009.10.03 18:01:00 -
[9]
Doesnt sound good. wont turn out good.
Letting people inject it all can just go to your skill count, get to the top level, all if you just buy a **** load of time codes.... unless you dont plan on that happening.
either way i disagree... the queue was enough.
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AmarrettoDiAmarr
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Posted - 2009.10.04 01:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
Originally by: Lucia Wilber Let players inject skills regardless of prerequisites, and just prevent training unless all of the prereqs are met.
Signed, this is how it should be.
This makes sense to me. Perhaps better could be to allow you to add skills to the queue that you have not injected. When their spot comes up, they could auto-inject the skill (or ignore it if the book is not around.)
In particular, this deficiency comes up in virtually all the "optimal" skill plan posts: they show you training the rank 1 learning-attribute skill up to 4 and then the rank 3 skill up. But due to the rudimentary user interface, you can't actually enter that into the queue. So you end up scheduling the R1 1-4 and then some filler skill and then try to catch it as soon as possible after the level 4 finishes then you go back, pause the filler, inject the R3 skill, queue the R3 skill.
Oh well, people play EVE in spite of not because of the user interface. And as others have said, in the old days you had to train skills in the snow, uphill both ways so there is no reason to fix this.
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Alsyth
Night Warder
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Posted - 2009.10.04 11:05:00 -
[11]
Signed
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Badmin
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Posted - 2009.10.04 13:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DarthCaboose
Originally by: Badmin No. Just no.
This leads itself to so many programming faults and issues in understandings, not to mention the thousands of people that would misinterpret the message or meaning and be problematic that it would be a nightmare.
24 hours for skills to be placed, i'm not quite comprehensive how people do not undersatnd how to use it.
Ill lay out the in visual format below just in case.
(--------------24 hours------------------) short skill, short skill, short skill,LOOOOOOONNNNGGG SKILLLL
Programming faults? Issues in understanding?
I don't think this well relates to the question at hand; allowing people to train skills in the queue at the time right after their prerequisites finish (as opposed to, say, getting up at 3 AM to inject and add the new skill book to the training queue, just because the game didn't allow you to do so).
If anything, implementing something like what Lucia Wilber discussed would be quite easy to do; the caveat is that you won't be able to add any new implants or change your skill training queue without a loss until all the prereqs are done and the skillbook is safely in your head.
Yes, the very thing you are suggesting takes hundreds of man hours to program, test, program for the mistakes, test again, and impliment into the current system to determine whom gets what back if they do infact violate the conditions and how this will be done.
Overall, its a programmers nightmare and is next to useless for adding any valuable changes in game. The 24 hour skill-que made a significant improvement and was worth that level of effort, however what you suggest makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. At most it provides you a means to not have to be lazy and figure out which skill would best value your plan subsequent to the skill you WANT to train for but do not have the prereq's for.
Instead of waking up at 3AM you could just not be daft and simply put another skill that you need to train at the end of it and simply change them over a few hours later you woudlnt have to wake up at 3AM =/. Duh.
A + B + C + D + E
Thats the order in which you WANT to train them in but between C and D you are not going to be there. SO
A+B+C-1/2 of (E)... Hours later... +D -other half of E.
Just throw in another skill that needs to be trained in the end of your goal ANYWAY to offset the time you are going to be AFG.
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.10.04 15:11:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 04/10/2009 15:11:04 Adding a feature that allows you to inject a skill before the prerequisites are trained wouldn't take "hundreds of man hours" to implement.
Do you have any idea of how long it took to go from the drawing board to Tranquility with the skill queue? No? Didn't think so.
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Ukucia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.10.04 21:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ukucia on 04/10/2009 21:30:04
Originally by: Badmin Yes, the very thing you are suggesting takes hundreds of man hours to program, test, program for the mistakes, test again, and impliment into the current system to determine whom gets what back if they do infact violate the conditions and how this will be done.
Fortunately, all that work is already done.
See, when you currently lack the prereqs for a skill, it won't let you inject the skill. So move CheckPrereqs() or whatever it's called into the point where skills switch. Don't add SPs unless the existing code in CheckPrereqs() approves.
Quote: Overall, its a programmers nightmare and is next to useless for adding any valuable changes in game.
If this situation is your nightmare, you're either an extremely new programmer, or an extremely bad one.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.10.05 10:06:00 -
[15]
Hell even if it takes 1 hour to code- its not worth the time. Just put a skill at the end of the que. Then when your able inject your book and begin training it. Its not that difficult. Were not talking about "wasted" training time. Any change would just be for the ocd kids who just cant train anything out of their predetermined plans.
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
Badmin
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Posted - 2009.10.05 10:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Future Mutant Hell even if it takes 1 hour to code- its not worth the time. Just put a skill at the end of the que. Then when your able inject your book and begin training it. Its not that difficult. Were not talking about "wasted" training time. Any change would just be for the ocd kids who just cant train anything out of their predetermined plans.
QFT
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.05 14:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ukucia
Quote: Overall, its a programmers nightmare and is next to useless for adding any valuable changes in game.
If this situation is your nightmare, you're either an extremely new programmer, or an extremely bad one.
Coming from a programmer here, this ^ to be honest.
It's not a huge change from how it currently works with the skill Q, although I don't know the code, so you could be a CCP alt.
And I don't see anyone whining. Just offering a natural progression to make it better. Skill Q is win. I can deal with not being able to inject the skill until the prereqs are fully trained. However, it would be nice, from my perspective, to be able to inject any skills.
At the same time, I could see CCP deciding that there is an actual point to not being able to, because you'd have to travel to the book, or carrying it around with you, which could have some risks/time involved. But I say let them make that decision. This is a very sensible proposal, otherwise.
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.10.05 21:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Future Mutant Hell even if it takes 1 hour to code- its not worth the time. Just put a skill at the end of the que. Then when your able inject your book and begin training it. Its not that difficult. Were not talking about "wasted" training time. Any change would just be for the ocd kids who just cant train anything out of their predetermined plans.
Obviously you don't understand what we're talking about in this thread. Go play in general discussion, little boy.
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Joel McBeth
Caldari JJ Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.05 23:56:00 -
[19]
Not requiring the prereqs for a skillbook to inject it would make skillbooks an annoying vestige to everyone but newbies. You can just plan out all the skills you want to learn, go to an NPC school, and buy them all and inject them.
Might as well just get rid of skillbooks if you want to inject all the skills at once and train them when you have learned the pre-reqs.
The OP's idea about being able to inject skills for only skills currently training is a novel idea, it fixes the problem with the skill queue of trying to train the prereqs for a skill and that skill immediately after.
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Skyt Inteky
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Posted - 2009.10.06 12:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DarthCaboose
Originally by: Badmin No. Just no.
This leads itself to so many programming faults and issues in understandings, not to mention the thousands of people that would misinterpret the message or meaning and be problematic that it would be a nightmare.
24 hours for skills to be placed, i'm not quite comprehensive how people do not undersatnd how to use it.
Ill lay out the in visual format below just in case.
(--------------24 hours------------------) short skill, short skill, short skill,LOOOOOOONNNNGGG SKILLLL
Programming faults? Issues in understanding?
I don't think this well relates to the question at hand; allowing people to train skills in the queue at the time right after their prerequisites finish (as opposed to, say, getting up at 3 AM to inject and add the new skill book to the training queue, just because the game didn't allow you to do so).
If anything, implementing something like what Lucia Wilber discussed would be quite easy to do; the caveat is that you won't be able to add any new implants or change your skill training queue without a loss until all the prereqs are done and the skillbook is safely in your head.
Yep, people not as used as u in managin skills, will have problems.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.10.06 13:22:00 -
[21]
Just to get this right, the big argument against is that it will be to hard for new players to grasp the concept? I thought this was EVE, where quality actually was placed in higher regards than playerfriendliness and cuteness for marketing?
And the proposal holds so many more advantages than mentioned. For example, training an alt(or a new char for that matter) almost always ends up as a rank 1 skill to 5 as a prereq, then some other skill afret that. Be it for research, hauling, RP-farming, cloaking, cynos - whatever really. There's generally no other skills to train, and you can't train the one after. Nor can you train across characters on the same account using the queue. This applies to new players exactly the same way. If I want to train up for a hulk, I want to train exhumers when my prereq is done(whatever that prereq may be). Yes, I might need to train that Jury rigging 5 someday, but I certainly have no use for it now, so it's either wake up at 3 AM or waste a few hours, same as it's always been.
Is it critical? No. Is it a feature? Yes. Is there any valid arguments against so far? No. |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.06 15:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: NoNah Is there any valid arguments against so far?
Just this:
Quote: Might as well just get rid of skillbooks if you want to inject all the skills at once and train them when you have learned the pre-reqs.
Pretty valid. After all, why does Eve have skill books?
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Zhilia Mann
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Posted - 2009.10.06 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Originally by: NoNah Might as well just get rid of skillbooks if you want to inject all the skills at once and train them when you have learned the pre-reqs.
Pretty valid. After all, why does Eve have skill books?
ISK sink. This has been thrashed to death in MD. It's actually one of the more important ones.
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.10.06 16:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zhilia Mann
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Originally by: NoNah Might as well just get rid of skillbooks if you want to inject all the skills at once and train them when you have learned the pre-reqs.
Pretty valid. After all, why does Eve have skill books?
ISK sink. This has been thrashed to death in MD. It's actually one of the more important ones.
If only for an ISK sink, then players could just go to a "school service" in a station and pay for a skill to be stuck in his head.
Not only ISK sink, Eve has skill books for trade. Bring the skill book to a place (0.0) that doesn't have it and sell for profit. Some people also buy skill books they don't use, because they changed plans or something. Skill books can go pop when trying to move them.
In other words, there's a reason for skill books as an item in particular. If you could inject skills and then train them when you've learned the pre-reqs (even if you have the pre-req in Q, possibly), then you're removing the need for skill books as an item, which removes certain trade and other things.
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Shakari Sween
Gallente Urban Mining Corp Rising Phoenix Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.06 23:24:00 -
[25]
If you do go the route of injecting them before you can actualy train them you might as well drop the whole skill book concept, which is after all where it would be heading.
There are bad things about the current system, but there are ways to get around them. You dont have to get up at 3am anymore to change skills, you use the que to do this for you. So you loose 5 hours of training, big deal. You'll be in your new ship 5 hours later, and then you probably shouldn't be in that ship for another day or two anyway(lvl 3 at least pref 4 to fly it effectivily).
Implimenting the plug in skill book before prereq's while useless makes the skill book concept void. It means that there is no risk of going to buy the book and then move to somewere else before you can plug it in. That risk needs to stay in to balance it. It also means that when you come to train that skill finaly your going to want to get to it asap, so if you left the book on the other side of the universe your going to buy a 2nd one rather than travel 60 jumps.
Its all about planing really, with implementing the pluging in before prereq's you gain to much and take away to much of the risk that is allready associated with skill books. Sure you could put in some penalties but there is just to much room for abuse and no or little risk involved with it.
CCP had to implement the skill que, they didnt have a choice after dumping ghost training and the fall out after that. What your sugesting basicly brings back ghost training on a much much higher level.
Good idea in princaple, bad idea in reality(of the game). |
Aellun Mokul
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Posted - 2009.10.06 23:54:00 -
[26]
Your slippery slope argument is not valid. This change doesn't need to lead to the removal of skill books.
This proposal changes nothing for the worse. Pirates will still be able to bait noobs into low-sec systems. Traders will still be able to sell books in 0.0 and other remote regions. Suicide gankers can still profit by destroying the traders hauling these books.
One of the complaints from my friends that have tried the game and disliked it was the amount of needless travel. This proposal might eliminate some of that just like the upcoming change to Corporation applications. It is simply a convenience for those smart enough to plan ahead.
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Okarn
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Posted - 2009.10.07 20:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr ... Perhaps better could be to allow you to add skills to the queue that you have not injected. When their spot comes up, they could auto-inject the skill (or ignore it if the book is not around.)
/signed
The only downside to this would be that it involves manipulation of items in a players hanger or hold when they might be offline. Are there any other mechanisms in-game that do similar actions (ie changing/moving/reducing items in hold or hanger)?
Also, in agreement with earlier posts, allowing the book to be injected before the prereq is trained is silly and really doesn't fit (brain doesn't have the right structure yet to fit that data in), but it shouldn't be that out of line to be able to schedule your injection.
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Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.10.07 21:55:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 07/10/2009 21:55:25
Originally by: Okarn Also, in agreement with earlier posts, allowing the book to be injected before the prereq is trained is silly
So you're saying, in a game where one single person can fly a spaceship more than 15km long, one unit of our money is more than most regular people make in a lifetime, and a ship less than 50m long is capable of traveling at more than 3000 (Three THOUSAND) times the speed of light, that learning the framework of a skill before you know everything that comes before it is unreasonable.
Is that a joke? You must be joking.
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Vhiskey
Caldari Imperial Forces
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Posted - 2009.10.08 00:31:00 -
[29]
just let me inject the skill when the remaining training time of the prereq is below 24 hours
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Ministers Of Destruction. The First Blood
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Posted - 2009.10.08 08:41:00 -
[30]
Think about what it was like prior to the skill queue.
trying to juggle your skills so you miss as little training as possible, going to be slightly too late because that skill was about to finish.
You've got it easy these days and you should be happy.
All I can see resulting from allowing people to inject skills prior to having the prerequisite is you'll get a lot of new players buying the wrong skills or getting over zealous and buying skills that they want and then not being able to train them for a long time.
Also, most of the people I know don't travel around that much and rarely up and move all together but even if they did, skill books are tiny so you can just haul them with.
I fail to see the advantages of this short of frustrating new players or some kind of odd epeen thing.
Sorry --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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