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[Proposal] Reduce the mass of the Orca.

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Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.04 03:51:00 - [1] When the Orca was first introduced, I was quite ecstatic that there would be a new ship that was being designed specifically for hauling ore. I figured this would be especially helpful in W-Space where I tend to mine as much ore as I can before returning back to K-space. The problem is that the Orca's mass makes it difficult or even impossible to use in some instances. At best the Orca may be able to make one or two 2-way trips from W-space before the wormhole reaches critical mass and is on the verge of closing. The Orca is also a cheap tool used by W-Space corps to shut down unwanted wormholes with ease without risking a more expensive ship such as a carrier. If you look at the ratio of cargo space to ship mass you'll find that when comparing the Orca to the next largest hauler, the Iteron V, the cargo space to ship mass ratio is way out of line. I propose to give the Orca the same ship mass as a Covetor or Hulk since they appear to be about the same size on screen (even give it 30% more than the Hulk and it would work). As it stands, the ship's mass doesn't work well with its defined role with regards to W-space transport. Thanks!
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.04 07:12:00 - [2] Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.10.04 10:36:00 - [3] Originally by: Drake Draconis Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. you obviously have no experience with WHS It all depends on the wormhole type.
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.04 15:51:00 - [4] Exactly...if the class of the wormhole itself is low, the Orca won't even have a chance of making it. A class 8 wormhole (not the space itself but the class of the wormhole entrance/exit) will normally allow 2 two-way trips by an Orca before it starts to destabilize. I did give some thought to the mass of the Orca. Since it's able to store 2 Hulks I would then say make the ship 3-4 times as massive as a Hulk. This would still put it way under its current mass. 3 times may not seem as much but if the ship is mainly filled with empty space inside (much like a balloon) then it wouldn't have all that much mass compared to something like a Carrier which would have more armor and such which would contribute to its mass.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.04 17:55:00 - [5] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 04/10/2009 17:57:00 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 04/10/2009 17:55:35 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Drake Draconis Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. you obviously have no experience with WHS It all depends on the wormhole type. You know what... I don't care what you think or say because I've seen it myself. This proposal has a chance in hell of flying because of the raw facts of WHS. don't expect it to work out pal. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.10.04 20:14:00 - [6] I'm not opposed to this idea per se(as long as its effective agility doesn't change), but I'll just point out that the Orca really wasn't designed for W-space, it was designed for highsec mining gangs with a sideline in the "small freighter" business.
Scerolikk Teromni	Posted - 2009.10.04 21:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto the Orca really wasn't designed for W-space, it was designed for highsec mining gangs This. The Orca's primary benefit is that fleet members can load cargo directly into the ore bay, thereby bypassing the dangerous use of jet cans and the need to anchor secure containers. The Orca pilot would be better off flying a Hulk and loading things into a HSC, and then coming back with an itty 5, while a corpmate or two fly around fighting off rats and pirate gangs.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Smegnet Incorporated Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.10.05 01:01:00 - [8] Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Drake Draconis Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. you obviously have no experience with WHS It all depends on the wormhole type. lol..that's hilarious. I myself have seen orcas go through multiple times. It does indeed depend on the Wormhole. But I see no need to reduce the mass of the Orca. It seems balanced enough to me. --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.05 02:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker lol..that's hilarious. I myself have seen orcas go through multiple times. It does indeed depend on the Wormhole. But I see no need to reduce the mass of the Orca. It seems balanced enough to me. --Isaac Actually if you go to the following link, you'll find that the Orca is just the ship that people advise on using to close down wormholes... Link
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.05 06:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Isaac Starstriker Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Drake Draconis Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. you obviously have no experience with WHS It all depends on the wormhole type. lol..that's hilarious. I myself have seen orcas go through multiple times. It does indeed depend on the Wormhole. But I see no need to reduce the mass of the Orca. It seems balanced enough to me. --Isaac don't waste your breath Isaac... they are just crying to be crying. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.10.05 11:28:00 - [11] I am waiting for them to start whining about the Wormholes you can't take an Orca into at all because the mass limit is too low. @OP: Originally by: Zorok I propose to give the Orca the same ship mass as a Covetor or Hulk since they appear to be about the same size on screen (even give it 30% more than the Hulk and it would work). This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a very long time. WTF does size have to do with anything? Go find a loaf of bread and a chunk of concrete the same mass. Tell me if they are even remotely the same size. (Hint if you say yes, you're either a liar or a dumbass). --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
Dirty Wizard	Posted - 2009.10.05 16:11:00 - [12] No. My corp intentionally uses Orcas to force collapse some wormholes. Sometimes we use it to force collapse an enemies high sec WH exit so they can't escape or enter.
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.06 01:32:00 - [13] Originally by: De'Veldrin This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a very long time. WTF does size have to do with anything? Go find a loaf of bread and a chunk of concrete the same mass. Tell me if they are even remotely the same size. (Hint if you say yes, you're either a liar or a dumbass). The point being that the Orca would be less dense due to the fact it's designed to hold large amounts of items which means that much of the space is filled (when empty) with space. The Orca is like your floating piece of bread as bread has pockets of air. Something more dense would be something like a carrier or even a battleship which is laden with armor, weapon, and redundant electronic systems. It's amazing to see so many people have issues with changing things. I'm curious as to what your ulterior motive is. Is it because you also use the Orca for shutting down wormholes or is it because you are against anything any industrial player asks for? You have attacked the logic behind the ship design itself but you have given no indication why you would oppose such a change in the game (how would this negatively impact you should this proposal be accepted).
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.06 02:33:00 - [14] What we have issue with is your incesesant whining and crying. WE HAVE NO ISSUE with the system. The Orca is fine as it is... its a sturdy ship and it serves us WHS explorers/miners/industrialists just fine. In all honesty its a bit stupid to use the Orca for the sole purpose of killing a WH... a battleship with armor plating would be far more effective. Maybe its time you should stop playing in the sandbox (class 1) and start working in class 2's and 3's so you don't have the problem of killin WH's. Additionally... its a valid tactic to slam the door on people who invade areas of WHS that are claimed... and since its 0.0.. anyone can do whatever the #### they want to do with it. don't like it? Then move along kiddo... because this isn't going to change a single bloody thing. If it wasn't the Orca you'd be picking on an another ship and asking to have it's mass lowered as well. the issue is YOU... not the Orca. Capiche? ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
William Caldon Caldari Golden Cross Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.06 02:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Zorok Originally by: De'Veldrin This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a very long time. WTF does size have to do with anything? Go find a loaf of bread and a chunk of concrete the same mass. Tell me if they are even remotely the same size. (Hint if you say yes, you're either a liar or a dumbass). The point being that the Orca would be less dense due to the fact it's designed to hold large amounts of items which means that much of the space is filled (when empty) with space. The Orca is like your floating piece of bread as bread has pockets of air. Something more dense would be something like a carrier or even a battleship which is laden with armor, weapon, and redundant electronic systems. It's amazing to see so many people have issues with changing things. I'm curious as to what your ulterior motive is. Is it because you also use the Orca for shutting down wormholes or is it because you are against anything any industrial player asks for? You have attacked the logic behind the ship design itself but you have given no indication why you would oppose such a change in the game (how would this negatively impact you should this proposal be accepted). You could always kill the Orca if your problem is Wormholes shutting down.....
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.06 03:11:00 - [16] You still haven't stated what issues you have with the proposal. Instead you dodge around the issue and make attacks on me because you're unable to justify a real reason besides saying "YOU are the problem." Let's not degarde the issue into childish banter. Personal attacks is simply a childish means of deflection. Stay OT please.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.10.06 03:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Zorok It's amazing to see so many people have issues with changing things. I'm curious as to what your ulterior motive is. Is it because you also use the Orca for shutting down wormholes or is it because you are against anything any industrial player asks for? You have attacked the logic behind the ship design itself but you have given no indication why you would oppose such a change in the game (how would this negatively impact you should this proposal be accepted). Frankly, this wouldn't impact me one way or the other, since the wormholes I frequent are too small to get an Orca through the begin with. And speaking as an industrial player, my opposition to this change is because there's no need for it, aside from your whine in this thread. And since I don't see a long line of people in here supporting it, I'm guessing there aren't a lot of other people who see the need for it either. Sometimes people who don't support your ideas do it because it's a bad idea, not because we have an ulterior motive. Seriously...paranoid much? --Vel In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.06 03:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Zorok You still haven't stated what issues you have with the proposal. Instead you dodge around the issue and make attacks on me because you're unable to justify a real reason besides saying "YOU are the problem." Let's not degarde the issue into childish banter. Personal attacks is simply a childish means of deflection. Stay OT please. Try reading first off. Secondly... try LISTENING. But since I have to spell it out to you since your such a WHS Noob... fine then. 1: Your Obviously lack experience if you keep having trouble with Orca's getting in. As I've clearly indicated... step it up to Class 2's and 3's... problem solved. 2: You want to lower the mass of the Orca for WHS transitions but in reality the real problem is mass itself. To what end would this accomplish? More entrances and exits with Orca's? What's your REAL motivation and not this pathetic excuse you've given us. As I said... If I was going to kill a wormhole then get some REAL mass... a battleship for example. In addition... just because no one can come up with a obvious drawback (in your delussionary world) to your proposal doesn't mean we are stupid and your ideas is the best. The point is as I've said many times before.... this is a waste of time... and your whining over nothing. WHS is supposed to be unstable... unpredictable... risky... yet rewarding. Not everyone is going to figure it out. I Suggest you take a step back... and start doing a little bit more homework and alot less griping. Nothing irritates me more than hidden/veiled proposals. Mass smass.... your up to something else here. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.06 04:00:00 - [19] Originally by: Drake Draconis Try reading first off. Secondly... try LISTENING. But since I have to spell it out to you since your such a WHS Noob... fine then. 1: Your Obviously lack experience if you keep having trouble with Orca's getting in. As I've clearly indicated... step it up to Class 2's and 3's... problem solved. 2: You want to lower the mass of the Orca for WHS transitions but in reality the real problem is mass itself. To what end would this accomplish? More entrances and exits with Orca's? What's your REAL motivation and not this pathetic excuse you've given us. As I said... If I was going to kill a wormhole then get some REAL mass... a battleship for example. In addition... just because no one can come up with a obvious drawback (in your delussionary world) to your proposal doesn't mean we are stupid and your ideas is the best. The point is as I've said many times before.... this is a waste of time... and your whining over nothing. WHS is supposed to be unstable... unpredictable... risky... yet rewarding. Not everyone is going to figure it out. I Suggest you take a step back... and start doing a little bit more homework and alot less griping. Nothing irritates me more than hidden/veiled proposals. Mass smass.... your up to something else here. Actually I was just making the proposal in hopes that the Orcas would be able to make more trips through the wormholes and be able to traverse the lower class wormholes as well. I have no other motive than to be able to use a ship for its intended role. Also, a Battleship currently has much less mass than an Orca so closing a Wormhole will take longer with a battleship. I have no issues with people using Orcas to close wormholes although I believe that this may be why some oppose the proposal. It's cheaper to lose an Orca than a Carrier.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.06 07:08:00 - [20] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 06/10/2009 07:08:38 I give up... this guy is hopeless. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Far Wanderer Dominium Brotherhood	Posted - 2009.10.07 03:04:00 - [21] Hrm...while on the one hand I like how Wormholes promote a team effort to really exploit them, I also can understand the point of view that wants to be able to bring as many toys as possible into w_space. Shaving the mass off of an Orca seems like one way to go, but maybe there are other ways to "lighten the load". Perhaps a new module that halves the mass of a ship for a limited duration? Or a science based skill that allows a pilot to treat any ship he or she flies as 5% per skill level less in overall mass per WH trip?
Scerolikk Teromni	Posted - 2009.10.07 03:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Zorok Also, a Battleship currently has much less mass than an Orca so closing a Wormhole will take longer with a battleship. Originally by: Drake Draconis Try reading first off. Originally by: Drake Draconis a battleship *with armor plating()** would be far more effective (*) Bolded for emphasis because you've proven so far that you would probably miss it.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.10.07 11:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Drake Draconis Edited by: Drake Draconis on 04/10/2009 17:57:00 Edited by: Drake Draconis on 04/10/2009 17:55:35 Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Originally by: Drake Draconis Uh... NO. Because you obviously have no experience with WHS. I've seen WH's survive 4 to 6 trips with an Orca. you obviously have no experience with WHS It all depends on the wormhole type. You know what... I don't care what you think or say because I've seen it myself. This proposal has a chance in hell of flying because of the raw facts of WHS. don't expect it to work out pal. Lul. I dont care about this proposal , did i supported it ? I just pointed out your incompetence , thats it. Though maybe i should support it , more orcas flying into w-space = more juicy kills for me. /supporting
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre REIGN Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.07 14:21:00 - [24] I'm not the one posting with an alt and typing like a 6 year old. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
Zorok LEGI0N Elite Trade Group	Posted - 2009.10.07 18:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Drake Draconis I'm not the one posting with an alt and typing like a 6 year old. Dude, I don't think anyone here is using alts. Stop being so paranoid and stop the flaming and such. The last guy makes a good point- allowing Orcas to go into W-Space will only encourage others to blow them up. By the way I've been playing the game for quite a long time. Longer than you unless your character is an alt. :-D It's time to grow up and stop making childish posts. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic, feel free to find another one to flame and belittle people who make suggestions.

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